153433 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyiolanthe]

And thus set the stage for DA5 and the return of the Blight. Nice.

 

Adding: Though the idea of Solas being possessed, or even turned, is rather repulsive.

 

 

Considering the bald bastard's plan is nothing short of global genocide and the rending of the very fabric of reality? No.

 

That is some cthulhu level bullshit and it has to be stopped.

 

There is pretty much no line that the PC could presumably cross that would even NEAR the sheer arrogance to decide, I will literally end the world at a whim.

 

 

I will be the first to admit that what follows is the wildest speculation:

 

What if Solas' plan isn't purely about restoring the ancient elves, but about restoring the planet? The time he has very clearly said that he wants to return the world to predated the First Blight. 

 

What if our choice to hunt him down means we are dooming the planet to complete corruption by the Blight?

 

What if our choice to try to redeem him means that yes, we will succeed; he will relent.  But then he will tell us what that actually means.  And then the choice to let the world continue Blighted, or to wipe it clean, falls to us?

 

Either choice results in the world of Thedas as we know it being destroyed - in the long term by the blight, or in the short term by letting Solas do his thing.

 

I may be deluding myself because he is quite probably about one step away from being a Pride Demon himself (his Dread Wolf form is basically a pride demon/wolf hybrid, after all), but I think Solas' apparent hypocrisy is perhaps too great of a simplification. Are we, the players, falling into the trap he warns our characters to avoid - of seeing things as either black or white, including him?

[dawnstone]

I think he really believes he has no other choice but to fix them with magic. He's desperate and it seems like the only solution. Why? No idea, I wish I got more of a glimpse of what's in his head.

 

I also wish I knew more about his motives: Is it because he can't stand for his civilization to die out? Is it because he feels he needs to fix his mistake? Is it because this world that is so disconnected from the Fade seems horrible? Is it because Thedas is going to hell soon anyway unless he does something? Those are just some possibilities from what we know so far. 

I think it really was the dominantly the first three when he started out, but the fourth is genuinely a factor that he can't ignore. The Blight doesn't seem like going to get cured/resolved/dealt with the way things are - and it may even be the case that it can't be dealt with properly, while the Veil is in place.

[midnight tea]

Because I'm not familiar with the material, if it's comparable, how it's comparable, or any of the nuance of the situation. I'm relying entirely on you for information on the matter, and you're inclined - even if only subconsciously - to hand me information that only supports your position.

 

... I'm not really sure what is about "your daughter is dead" that is an information that "only supports my position"? Supports my position in what way exactly? There are choices and consequences stemming from those choices. You don't have to play the game to check the legitimacy of my information about the ending - some choices really aren't anything that is subtle, or debatable when it comes to their results. I can link you walkthroughs to achieve given results that describe what they are or youtube videos with epilogues if you want to check just how well-defined consequences in TW3 are.

[drosophila]

I think it really was the dominantly the first three when he started out, but the fourth is genuinely a factor that he can't ignore. The Blight doesn't seem like going to get cured/resolved/dealt with the way things are - and it may even be the case that it can't be dealt with properly, while the Veil is in place.

 

Agreed. I think if he knew a solution for the Blight with the current state of things, he would've shared it or dealt with the Blight himself.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Personally I'm for "save his people" or "repair this sh*tty world".

 

Not that guilt doesn't play into it, but I think when it comes to his morals Solas is rather selfless, and when it comes to his actions he is rather pragmatic. 

 

So he wouldn't act out of guilt, because he would recognize that 1. fixing his guilt is a selfish motive, and 2. it's an act driven out of emotions rather than pragmatism. 

 

Besides, I don't think he wants to assuage his guilt. I think on some level he believes he's earned it and should feel bad, and recognizes that even removing the Veil won't make the guilt go away. (Ot bring back what was lost, for that matter. It's lost, Solas!)

 

Guilt might be clouding his judgement, but I don't think it's his main motive. 

 

I'll be honest and I say I was bending more towards the "guilt is the main cause" train of thought because at least then I could feel a bit more sympathy for a character I like and respect.

 

But if he's doing it because he wants to save his people and thinks the world is crappy, then well he go eat it. That first one is pretty selfish just in another way and other is arrogant as hell. You want to save your people that's all fine and good, but if doing so means the likely death of everyone else then we got a serious problem.

 

The same goes for the world being crappy as it is. Solas thinks removing the Veil would make everything better, alright, lets do a vote that involves all the major civilizations of Thedas and see what there opinion on the matter is. Well shucks, Fenny, looks like you just got outvoted. Best find another way of making the world less terrible. How about sharing access to those sweet eluvians and teaching people how benign elven magic works. 

[midnight tea]

I think it really was the dominantly the first three when he started out, but the fourth is genuinely a factor that he can't ignore. The Blight doesn't seem like going to get cured/resolved/dealt with the way things are - and it may even be the case that it can't be dealt with properly, while the Veil is in place.

 

Well he "broke the dreams so old dreams wouldn't wake" or so the Cole says - so it seems that the Veil (or whatever else Solas has done) may not be enough to do its job... although why is that is yet another question.

[Sable Rhapsody]

But it's just unrealistic to just expect most choices being more or less equal - there are some choices that are better or worse than others. As in games, as they're in real life. Sticking to "it's always around middle grey" is no better than "it's always black and white". There are things we can choose that are better - even if the route we choose may not seem like one at times.

Plus - while the choice for Cole is probably no better in one way or the other (a true middle grey choice on pretty much all levels), the Well choice is 'grayish' for now simply because we don't have more information about consequences of it at this time.

But it doesn't have to be one way or the other. If you're only thinking of two potential outcomes for Solas, sure. Either they're equivalent or one is better than the other. But if there are more than two possible outcomes, they can exist along a continuum of "good" to "bad" with plenty of grey space and overlap. Yes it's difficult to implement and requires more resources, but they did it before in ME3 with Tuchanka and Rannoch.

[midnight tea]

The same goes for the world being crappy as it is. Solas thinks removing the Veil would make everything better, alright, lets do a vote that involves all the major civilizations of Thedas and see what there opinion on the matter is. Well shucks, Fenny, looks like you just got outvoted. Best find another way of making the world less terrible. How about sharing access to those sweet eluvians and teaching people how benign elven magic works. 

 

It's not exactly fair to call for voting in a world that all but decided that the Veil is part of their world and everything that lies beyond it is evil or close to evil. I'm not saying that it makes Solas right, only that the perception of mortals seems to be entirely erroneous and definitely not helping anyone.

 

It's like... hmm... well, call me crazy, but the Veil so far seems to me almost like the walls some people call to be built that separate them from unwanted immigrants. And the Fade was once part of the world and the 'unwanted immigrants' were legit part of it as well. They suffer too, because their dearest wish is to join the living as Solas says (I assume it means that it probably messes with death and rebirth circle, hence losing of immortality, however it is understood).

And mortals apparently deny them that because "it's their turf now", without even stopping and thinking whether there are bigger consequences of such thinking.

[Master Warder Z_]

I rather like this idea.

As do I.

[dawnstone]

Well he "broke the dreams so old dreams wouldn't wake" or so the Cole says - so it seems that the Veil (or whatever else Solas has done) may not be enough to do its job... although why is that is yet another question.

Yeah, the Veil is/was basically a band aid, it seems like to me, against the Blight (and the Titans and the Evanuris - everyone goes into Time Out!), that the Blight managed to find a way around anyway. So basically imagine there's this giant plaster on the wound so to speak, and now he can't get to the source to try to apply any new solution, because the bloody thing is in the way (let's not even get into how the plaster completely warped reality (what kind of drugs were those, Solas?)). Not that he has a new, better solution... though, he said he had plans... had being the operative word.

 

*facepalm* 

 

Best leave this to the Inquisitor, Wolfy.

[drosophila]

I'll be honest and I say I was bending more towards the "guilt is the main cause" train of thought because at least then I could feel a bit more sympathy for a character I like and respect.

 

But if he's doing it because he wants to save his people and thinks the world is crappy, then well he go eat it. That first one is pretty selfish just in another way and other is arrogant as hell. You want to save your people that's all fine and good, but if doing so means the likely death of everyone else then we got a serious problem.

 

The same goes for the world being crappy as it is. Solas thinks removing the Veil would make everything better, alright, lets do a vote that involves all the major civilizations of Thedas and see what there opinion on the matter is. Well shucks, Fenny, looks like you just got outvoted. Best find another way of making the world less terrible. How about sharing access to those sweet eluvians and teaching people how benign elven magic works. 

 

Interesting. It's the opposite for me. 

 

Doing it out of guilt seems selfish to me. It'd make me angry to find out guilt was the main reason. He's made a mistake, now he has to bear the guilt. Why should everyone die for him to feel a bit better?

 

If he's doing it for his people - yeah, that's a mean move from the point of view of anyone in modern Thedas. But if all elves born post-Veil are mortal (even assuming the ones who were born before the Veil are still immortal) and the civilization is dying out, I could see how he would not be willing to sit idly by and let it happen. I'm not saying it's right. But if there were a bunch of gremlins suddenly inhabiting Earth and it was up to me to change Earth to save the humans... can't say I would do it differently, no matter how much I love the gremlins. 

 

From an unbiased standpoints it's a question of mere numbers - there seem to be more gremlins now, and it's their planet now.

 

But from the point of view of someone who's a member of one of the races - and who had that level of patriotism where he used to be a freedom fighter and protected his people against the tyrants - I can absolutely see how he would make this choice. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Please don't make stuff up to justify your position.

I didn't? I said he didn't care. He's going try to revive a dead world, kill millions all to bring back a ghost, that's indifference to sociopathic levels.

His words literally-"It likely won't survive " in reference to the world. Everything is context given from content, taking what the DLC said at its word.

That said, this isn't surprising, the Anders crowd justified a church bombing.

[midnight tea]

But it doesn't have to be one way or the other. If you're only thinking of two potential outcomes for Solas, sure. Either they're equivalent or one is better than the other. But if there are more than two possible outcomes, they can exist along a continuum of "good" to "bad" with plenty of grey space and overlap. Yes it's difficult to implement and requires more resources, but they did it before in ME3 with Tuchanka and Rannoch.

 

I'm not saying that it has to be one way or another - by all means, I expect that we may have more than two choices when it comes to Solas. I simply don't shy away from choices that may be better than others, even if not "pristine white" or anything of the sort, or some choices that may have dire consequences Plus, I quite like the idea that in order to hunt a monster you have to become one. Look into abyss and see it stare back and all the cool stuff. No matter if it is or isn't a "bad choice" per se, it's definitely an interesting one, that may bring about different questions about how far we'd go to save something we care about, and so on.

 

 

Yeah, the Veil is/was basically a band aid, it seems like to me, against the Blight (and the Titans and the Evanuris - everyone goes into Time Out!), that the Blight managed to find a way around anyway. So basically imagine there's this giant plaster on the wound so to speak, and now he can't get to the source to try to apply any new solution, because the bloody thing is in the way (let's not even get into how the plaster completely warped reality (what kind of drugs were those, Solas?)). Not that he has a new, better solution... though, he said he had plans... had being the operative word.

 

*facepalm* 

 

Best leave this to the Inquisitor, Wolfy.

 

...I assume this is one of reasons why he let them live ;D If there's any chance for a better solution, Solas may think Inky and whoever they pick may have some chance to find it, perhaps.

 

Though I think he indeed may be necessary just to do something with the Veil - lift it, strengthen it, change it... it is his creation after all, and so far we've all but managed to seal rifts in it with HIS power.

[Master Warder Z_]

I will be the first to admit that what follows is the wildest speculation:

What if Solas' plan isn't purely about restoring the ancient elves, but about restoring the planet? The time he has very clearly said that he wants to return the world to predated the First Blight.

What if our choice to hunt him down means we are dooming the planet to complete corruption by the Blight?

What if our choice to try to redeem him means that yes, we will succeed; he will relent. But then he will tell us what that actually means. And then the choice to let the world continue Blighted, or to wipe it clean, falls to us?

Either choice results in the world of Thedas as we know it being destroyed - in the long term by the blight, or in the short term by letting Solas do his thing.

I may be deluding myself because he is quite probably about one step away from being a Pride Demon himself (his Dread Wolf form is basically a pride demon/wolf hybrid, after all), but I think Solas' apparent hypocrisy is perhaps too great of a simplification. Are we, the players, falling into the trap he warns our characters to avoid - of seeing things as either black or white, including him?

Ultimately perspective, conjecture aside, what that bastard is going to do cannot be defended. There is no one single being save the Maker who decide to flip the off switch on the world, to decide the lives of every living person in Thedas and beyond.

Anyone who says otherwise is running a cult.

[midnight tea]

I didn't? I said he didn't care. He's going try to revive a dead world, kill millions all to bring back a ghost, that's indifference to sociopathic levels.

His words literally-"It likely won't survive " in reference to the world. Everything is context given from content, taking what the DLC said at its word.

That said, this isn't surprising, the Anders crowd justified a church bombing.

 

You keep making stuff up as you go. What ghosts? How do you even know there will be ghosts? How do you even presume that he's going to bring about a "dead world"? Plus, Solas said that he "destroyed the world of the elves" when he created the Veil first - does that mean that he destroyed all of Thedas then? No. We know he didn't, otherwise modern Thedas wouldn't exist. So we can't assume that him destroying the world means total annihilation the way you claim it will be. 

 

Plus, the church bombing HAPPENED, hon - ending of the world didn't happen yet. Solas specifically left us alive and informed us what he's planning to do to give Thedas a fighting chance AND perhaps convince him to change his plans. 

 

If you don't see the difference between two situations, then we really haven't got much left to talk about.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Interesting. It's the opposite for me. 

 

Doing it out of guilt seems selfish to me. It'd make me angry to find out guilt was the main reason. He's made a mistake, now he has to bear the guilt. Why should everyone die for him to feel a bit better?

 

If he's doing it for his people - yeah, that's a mean move from the point of view of anyone in modern Thedas. But if all elves born post-Veil are mortal (even assuming the ones who were born before the Veil are still immortal) and the civilization is dying out, I could see how he would not be willing to sit idly by and let it happen. I'm not saying it's right. But if there were a bunch of gremlins suddenly inhabiting Earth and it was up to me to change Earth to save the humans... can't say I would do it differently, no matter how much I love the gremlins. 

 

From an unbiased standpoints it's a question of mere numbers - there seem to be more gremlins now, and it's their planet now.

 

But from the point of view of someone who's a member of one of the races - and who had that level of patriotism where he used to be a freedom fighter and protected his people against the tyrants - I can absolutely see how he would make this choice. 

 

Fair enough.

 

A guilt complex created by the need to correct a perceived mistake is just more sympathetic to me, while destroying most or possibly all of the inhabitants of a world because the previous world had more of your people is just terribly racist, especially when you consider that "de-evolved" members of his still exist. Plus, Solas being overwhelmed with guilt over his actions would better explain why he's even bothering with giving Thedas a few extra years of peace. 

 

But, hey, the likely answer is that it's just a mix of a bunch of powerful factors and not just one. 

[Ellawynn]

 

I think the back pedaling on Bull might have to do with implementation too. If picking the dreadnought gave the Inquisition more tangible benefits beyond dialogue and war table (schematics, substantial rare resources, intelligence at Halamshiral from Ben-Hassrath, etc.) I bet more players would stick with that choice. As it is, what you gain in terms of gameplay isn't worth what you lose.

 

Yeah, seeing more consequence for falling in with the qunari would've been neat. Even seeing the downsides of it would've been cool - like uncovering an "innocent" Qunari "ally" poking around Leliana's papers or something. 

 

Realistically though, that's probably asking a little too much of the developers, especially if they had to give that level of detail to every minor quest. Would've been cool... but I can understand not doing it. 

But it's just unrealistic to just expect most choices being more or less equal - there are some choices that are better or worse than others. As in games, as they're in real life. Sticking to "it's always around middle grey" is no better than "it's always black and white". There are things we can choose that are better - even if the route we choose may not seem like one at times.

 

Plus - while the choice for Cole is probably no better in one way or the other (a true middle grey choice on pretty much all levels), the Well choice is 'grayish' for now simply because we don't have more information about consequences of it at this time.

 

Better or worse - by your standards. Which is my point. The choices overall are rather balanced, but they differ for individual people based on what they find acceptable or desirable. That's what pushes them apart. Again, given your interpretation of Bull's quest, and even your thoughts on the Solas choice in Trespasser, I think we just have different ideas of what makes a choice right or wrong.

 

... I'm not really sure what is about "your daughter is dead" that is an information that "only supports my position"? Supports my position in what way exactly? There are choices and consequences stemming from those choices. You don't have to play the game to check the legitimacy of my information about the ending - some choices really aren't anything that is subtle, or debatable when it comes to their results. I can link you walkthroughs to achieve given results that describe what they are or youtube videos with epilogues if you want to check just how well-defined consequences in TW3 are.

Was that... under the spoiler? Because I didn't check under the spoiler. I um... figured that's why it was spoilered?

 

Nevertheless - it's not that I think you'll give me false information, but the information you do give me'll be filtered through your perception of it. Take our previous comments on Bull. If I knew nothing beyond what you told me, I'd be under the impression that there are positives whatsoever, or that they are negligible and outweighed to the point of irrelevance. But, seeing as how I've seen it for myself, I have my opinion on it, and how I disagree with that interpretation. It's a vital turn of the debate - otherwise, we'd be arguing why Bull's quest was bad and should've been changed. It alters my entire meaning of what sufficient balance in consequence is, and how Bull's quest isn't a bad example of it.

 

As for looking at walkthroughs - we're arguing about video games on the internet, dude, not writing thesis papers for our master degree. I'm not sure I need to invest that much effort in a single point of this discussion. (And I'm already putting off sleep for it. ) Anyway, it's just polite to keep to common ground, especially over something that's as inconsequential as this.

[dawnstone]

Agreed. I think if he knew a solution for the Blight with the current state of things, he would've shared it or dealt with the Blight himself.

I do believe he is desperately searching for an answer though, considering how bitter he is about the Grey Wardens having spent a thousand years fighting it and not coming up with anything at all (though how much of that is the fact that they all have the Taint in them, and whether or not it can control them to a certain extent, even at early stages to not want to find a cure for it, is up for grabs).

 

If he's doing it for his people - yeah, that's a mean move from the point of view of anyone in modern Thedas. But if all elves born post-Veil are mortal (even assuming the ones who were born before the Veil are still immortal) and the civilization is dying out, I could see how he would not be willing to sit idly by and let it happen. I'm not saying it's right. But if there were a bunch of gremlins suddenly inhabiting Earth and it was up to me to change Earth to save the humans... can't say I would do it differently, no matter how much I love the gremlins. 

 

From an unbiased standpoints it's a question of mere numbers - there seem to be more gremlins now, and it's their planet now.

 

But from the point of view of someone who's a member of one of the races - and who had that level of patriotism where he used to be a freedom fighter and protected his people against the tyrants - I can absolutely see how he would make this choice. 

Yeah, if it were the human race that was twisted into mere short-lived, faded shells of what they once were, because of something I could fix, because of something I did, I wouldn't hesitate to apply the cure. It probably makes me a horrible person, but I know I'd go for my family first if I saw they were in danger amongst a group of others.

 

...I assume this is one of reasons why he let them live ;D If there's any chance for a better solution, Solas may think Inky and whoever they pick may have some chance to find it, perhaps.

 

Though I think he indeed may be necessary just to do something with the Veil - lift it, strengthen it, change it... it is his creation after all, and so far we've all but managed to seal rifts in it with HIS power.

Yes, that's one of the things I've always liked about Solas, that he never pretends to have all of the answers, even if he has a lot of them due to age and experience. The fact that he can be condescending, because of the knowledge he does have, is irritating, but not unexpected. He is effectively a demi-god. But in this, at the moment he is utterly helpless, all of his plans have failed, and the one person who has given him any hope at all is the Inquisitor.

 

The Inquisitor doesn't just ask questions, they get answers.

[drosophila]

I do believe he is desperately searching for an answer though, considering how bitter he is about the Grey Wardens having spent a thousand years fighting it and not coming up with anything at all (though how much of that is the fact that they all have the Taint in them, and whether or not it can control them to a certain extent, even at early stages to not want to find a cure for it, is up for grabs).

 

He must be. 

 

 

Yes, that's one of the things I've always liked about Solas, that he never pretends to have all of the answers, even if he has a lot of them due to age and experience. The fact that he can be condescending, because of the knowledge he does have, is irritating, but not unexpected. He is effectively a demi-god. But in this, at the moment he is utterly helpless, all of his plans have failed, and the one person who has given him any hope at all is the Inquisitor.

 

The Inquisitor doesn't just ask questions, they get answers.

 

Well, page the feels corner if you need me. 

[midnight tea]

Was that... under the spoiler? Because I didn't check under the spoiler. I um... figured that's why it was spoilered?

 

Nevertheless - it's not that I think you'll give me false information, but the information you do give me'll be filtered through your perception of it. Take our previous comments on Bull. If I knew nothing beyond what you told me, I'd be under the impression that there are positives whatsoever, or that they are negligible and outweighed to the point of irrelevance. But, seeing as how I've seen it for myself, I have my opinion on it, and how I disagree with that interpretation. It's a vital turn of the debate - otherwise, we'd be arguing why Bull's quest was bad and should've been changed. It alters my entire meaning of what sufficient balance in consequence is, and how Bull's quest isn't a bad example of it.

 

As for looking at walkthroughs - we're arguing about video games on the internet, dude, not writing thesis papers for our master degree. I'm not sure I need to invest that much effort in a single point of this discussion. (And I'm already putting off sleep for it.   ) Anyway, it's just polite to keep to common ground, especially over something that's as inconsequential as this.

 

 

The reason I've picked Witcher 3 is because it has something that DA series hasn't gotten yet - and ending... Or at least an ending for a pretty huge arc, that we now see may last for more than one game. So it was more relevant what we discussed than, say, Iron Bull's choice, simply because those are choices that define the ending for a very large story arc - while Iron Bull's betrayal may be emotionally poignant, it is relatively inconsequential in a bigger picture. I mean... we may even not even bother with entire thing, since we have a choice of never recruiting IB in the first place, don't we?

 

And I couldn't in good conscience bring ME3 here, knowing the conundrum and strong opinions about its ending. Witcher 3 however, whether you know how it ends or not, does indeed have some well-defined choices and consequences. It's hard to sell some of them as anything different, no matter how biased I am. Whether you play it or not, whatever your perception of it is, the fact remains that a lot of people seem to enjoy the game, no matter how bad consequences Geralt suffers at the end of the game - so I see no reason why people shouldn't enjoy more weighty choices, with a wildly different places on a grayscale in BW games.

[dawnstone]

Well, page the feels corner if you need me. 

You assume I ever leave the feels corner.

 

cut for feels

Spoiler

 

Out of likes, btw.   

[drosophila]

You assume I ever leave the feels corner.

 

cut for feels

Spoiler

 

Out of likes, btw. 

 

Ugh, out of likes again.

 

*throws hearts at you across the feels corner*

[dawnstone]

Ugh, out of likes again.

 

*throws hearts at you across the feels corner*

Spoiler

*catches hearts*

 

*splat*

 

Wait, these are real hearts, is Fenris working for you?

 

Edit: Top!Solas

Welp, if I'm going to be in the feels corner, might as well enjoy it:

[drosophila]

Spoiler

*catches hearts*

 

*splat*

 

Wait, these are real hearts, is Fenris working for you?

 

 

fly!Fenris is definitely an agent. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

fly!Fenris is definitely an agent. 

 

And hey, that glowing stuff?  Not lyrium.  Just fluorescent tracer