Thaali, I ran out of quotes, but I'm so with you on the Solas Smoochery! All of that was so true. Seriously, best kisses in the game. He kind of ruined me for anyone else. (I mean, I'm romancing Cullen right now, and I can't even find CULLEN hot after Solas. Sigh.)
1. Solas says that "Mythal rallied the gods, once the shadow of Falon'Din's hunger stretched across her own people" - but who was Mythal's people? People worshiping her, or the people in her temple? Did the gods have specific cities or regions where they ruled? And why were the other gods so slow to react if he was killing their people? Or is it possible that Falon'Din was trying to amass followers outside the Elven kingdom?
2. Solas also says that "Falon'Din only surrendered when his brethren bloodied him in his own temple" - this might be a bit nitpicky of me, but why does he say "brethren" and not "kin"? He also does something similar in Trespasser where he said the generals became "kings" - why not say "regents" or "rulers"? It might be an oversight of the writers, or because English is not my first language, but it seems rather odd when we know at least four of the Evanuris were women. Is it possible it's some kind of clue to something? Probably reading way to much into it, bit it does bug me a bit.
TheyCallMeBunny, my take on #1 is that Mythal's concern was for all of their people, and somewhat ironically (given Solas's "these are not my people" declarations now), she worried and cared for them because it was right, not because she felt actual ownership, if that makes sense. On #2, "brethren" and "kin" can pretty much be used interchangeably here so I don't have a problem with it. Same with Solas's choice of "they became kings," which immediately implies arrogance and power. To me it's far more effective than "regents" or "rulers" which are more benign words. Meanwhile, I think the implication of "kings" is that it covers both genders here (and of course any arrogant female Evanuris became queens). On #3, I think that's typical Solas shadow-speak, where he means that sentence in pretty much every potential line-reading you can give it.
Remember that the Dalish have spent centuries searching for ancient elven culture. They are basically like archaeologists, using deductive reasoning and their imaginations to try to puzzle out something intangible from its material remains, which would include mosaics and murals and things. So they may well have seen that symbolism and misinterpreted it.....
I think this is absolutely what happened. The Dalish have basically been playing a millennia-long version of the game of "Telephone," and despite their real care for the subject, I just think there is a ton they warped, misunderstood, and misread. I would also suspect that just as Fen'Harel had agents, so too did some of the Evanuris, and surely enough survived to do a devastating and nasty word-of-mouth propaganda campaign about what the Dread Wolf actually did (and why).
With the bad news about Bowie this morning I was having a pretty miserable day. This helped immeasurably. Thank you.
Also, I was reading through the last couple pages of posts. I have to say, I'm not personally keen on Solas and Mythal as an "item." I can conveniently find other explanations for evidence that might support their romantic entanglement...for the most part. Some of it is pretty hard to ignore though, especially Solas' flying off the handle with the Evanuris killed Mythal and the whole Andraste is Mythal and Solas is Shartan and Shartan and Andraste were lovers thing (as Thedas religions are the different versions of the same story). I wonder if anyone has picked apart the theory that Solas is actually Elgar'nan. Solas did sort of destroy the world, and his magic possibly turns people to ash as Elgar'nan's did. Also, originally a power amulet for Solas was located in front of the Bastion of Elgar'nan. Certainly Elgar'nan's connection to vengeance doesn't totally fit. You all are much more up on lore and The World of Thedas than I am. Thoughts?
I really prefer not to think of Fen'Harel and Mythal as lovers, too -- I think it actually cheapens their story and his motivations in some ways. To me, Midnight Tea's comparison to Leliana's answer about her relationship with Divine Justinia is very apt -- it's much more interesting for them to have simply been rich and lasting friends and companions whose love for one another was simply an accepted fact by all who knew them. This also fits more in line with the idea of Mythal as a kind of powerful, all-seeing, maternal figure of the time -- an uncorrupted and healing presence among rampant arrogance and corruption of the Evanuris. I love the origin story of Solas and that he does what he does not just in rage and justifiable retribution against Mythal's killers, but also because he seems to truly believe he is averting the end of the world at their hands. (Also, I was so very sad about Bowie... still am. Sniffle.)
Considering that the mages killed one of his oldest (and only) friends, his plans are in shambles, and they're all scrambling to get the world from the brink AND Solas is in the middle of emotional turmoil about not-people actually being people (we do't get the balcony scene without completing that quest and certain level of approval) I'm not surprised he lashed out.
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Solas may be passionate and somewhat temperamental under all that self-control, and it might be that he was much more hot-blooded and cocky when he was younger, but I don't see him being anywhere close to a terror Elgar'nan seems to be.
This. Solas is certainly passionate (more so than he seems at first), but I think the very fact that Solas is consistently capable of honest self-analysis and criticism, as well as enormous self-control and discipline, makes an actual temper issue unlikely. I think he simply meant that he was more rash and impulsive as a younger man, which certainly did end up getting him (and, er, the world) in all sorts of trouble even so.
There used to be some discussion about the white vs. black wolf iconography, but if you look closely at the statues, the darker wolves appear to have been burnt by some sort of energy. So Solas is a grey wolf, or a white wolf, who has the chance of being a Big Bad Monster Greater Pride Wolf, depending on how you perceive him and how you treated him. He did repeatedly tell you that a spirit's nature was dependent upon how you perceived it, right? So if you expect to see Nice Fluffy Solas, you'll get Nice FLuffy Solas. If you're expecting Evil Fen'harel Solas, you get Scary Greater Pride Demon Wolf Solas. ... Makes sense to me anyway. Spirits are like quantum particles; they exist in an indeterminate state until they are observed. Or something.
While I'm one of those who really doesn't want Solas to be revealed to have been a spirit originally (I just think it would be a cheap reveal in some ways, making him an 'other'), I do think the case is somewhat strengthened by the similarities of the Dread Wolf's eyes to those of a Pride Demon (fitting right in with Solas's name of course too). But beyond whether or not he was an actual spirit at any point (and he does seem to deny this by saying, paraphrased, "I have always been what I am"), I do suspect after a few playthroughs of "Trespasser" that Solas has a hidden and more terrible face, that of the 'Dread Wolf.' I'm not saying it's evil or monstrous, but I do think it's more than allegory -- and is why he refers to his other face more than once repeatedly in DAI, why we see the Qunari dead from fear throughout "Trespasser," and why Solas tells a romanced Inquisitor that he would never want her to see him that way, or to "see what he becomes." He could mean that quite literally...
As for Lavellan's death - Solas says to every approved Inky in Trespasser "The Mark will eventually kill you. Drawing you here gave me a chance to save you... at least for now", which itself implies that either way the Inquisitor may be doomed; be it from some residual Anchor magic or whatever Solas is planning to do.
But Solas's comment is simply the literal truth -- the Mark will kill him/her unless it is removed. I took that dialogue to mean that there are two realities involved: (1) Solas needs to remove the mark (hand) ASAP to stop it from killing her, and on the second part (2) that while he is doing his best to save her and his former friends now, that he cannot guarantee what will come in the future. I definitely agree with you that the future he sees ahead of them is a bloody and dark one, and that he fully believes he will not survive it himself.
I agree that it seems death is inevitable, in his eyes, for himself and "every friend [the Inquisitor] has ever known," as he states when a non-romanced Lavellan asks to join him. But it seems that, in order to help the elves go back to how they'd been before, actually having their literal deaths, or something akin to tranquility, would be a step in the wrong direction. (And he hates the idea of the Tranquil.) He also recognizes the death of his friend to be a bad thing; it was clear it wasn't what he'd wanted for her. Would it not be more likely that they are infused with the spirit half of themselves (going on the ideas put forth in this thread, which I admit to being only about two-thirds through) or somehow linking them back with the Fade, perhaps in a way that tortures or reshapes them, but leaves them essentially "alive"?
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He has said he has nothing in common with modern elves; I don't recall an instance where he literally says they are not his people. Unless I'm mistaken, in which case, please point me to it.
I love all the ideas about what Solas's removal of the Veil might be like and what it might do. I'm still stuck mentally on imagining the incredible power necessary for him to have created the Veil in the first place. I just love the gorgeousness of the origin story and the complexity that modern-day Solas must journey "into the Fade" -- the Fade he loves more than anything -- when he himself was responsible for its annexation and separation. Imagining that moment is incredibly scary and yet powerful -- the punishment of the gods, the (literal) fall of the Elven cities and elves themselves, the separation for all time between the worlds of the spirit and the physical.
Meanwhile, Solas does actually bluntly say "They are not my people" more than once -- I know one of these instances is the dialogue he has with the Inquisitor after "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts," when he talks about Briala and is puzzled that the Inquisitor is sorry on his behalf that she was not able to help Briala more. Yet, what I find interesting is that Solas is so invested later on at the Temple of Mythal that he is actually visibly surprised and even hurt when Abelas throws very similar words back at him and a Lavellan Inquisitor -- "you are not my people." I still wonder how much Abelas saw in Solas and knew. It would be fascinating if he recognized what or who Solas is and yet kept his secrets.
Also - yes, he appears to be the "destroy the world to make things better" antihero. Don't forget that he's already done it once - he freed the elvhen people, but at the same time he's destroyed their world. That doesn't necessarily make him mad or OOC. Creating the Veil seems to have been the only way to save the world - and apparently now he thinks that tearing down the Veil is as necessary, since it's either not doing it's job, it's done it's job or is making matters worse; whatever the reason, and however it was necessary, the creation of the Veil and it cutting people's conscious connection with the Fade wracks him with guilt and responsibility.
Which is why I hope that the next (final?) act of the game with DAI4 offers as many complex emotional and intellectual options in seeing this through as it does exploratory or physical ones. I'm sure there are plenty who want to kick Solas's ass, but in actuality, the best weapon we had against Solas this entire time was his own heart. I really think it causes him terrible grief in DAI to simply fall in love with the world again. With his companions, many of whom he grows to palpably care for. With a romanced Lavellan, most of all. Not just because of all the reasons he should not allow himself to get so close to them, but because of the events of TME and Felassan. He realizes, but too late, how right Felassan was, and how seductive and beautiful this world can be. Even if broken beyond his imaginings. I think he tries at the end of DAI, but it's apparent from his warmth and relatively altruistic/positive actions in "Trespasser" that he cannot shut his heart down again, that he will always love our Inquisitor (whether high friendship or romanced) and many of his companions.
And that is what I think and hope will save him. I want us to be given the options to talk to Solas, to argue with him, even to perhaps infiltrate his organization and simply try to remind him of his heart. Because that is where I think everything will hinge in the end here. I believe we can reason with him and change his mind (and let's face it -- he is aware of this and even says as much in "Trespasser"). And that's what made DAI so fascinating for me to replay and really enjoy -- watching Solas's very subtle growth from a distant and rather cold, aloof companion -- to one who falls in love. Who is open and caring with Cole. Who jokes with Sera while trying to show her that she is more than she seems. Who supports and distracts Iron Bull from his grief.
To me, it isn't our love for Solas that will save the world, but his love for us.
I love everyone in this. "Falish dace tattoo" ROFL Oh this made me laugh. Thank you.
Thank you so much for that! I'm so glad you enjoyed my poor drunk Lavellan's post-Solas-breakup revels. It was fun to write. (I'm a dork.)
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Lightning rails, airships sailed by dragonmarked sorcerers...*sigh* I love that setting for precisely this reason. Concepts like magic, religion, prophecy, and technology aren't separate or in opposition. They're all intertwined.
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