153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

What is "playing god" though? IMO it's kind of a redundant accusation. I've heard it leveled at various people and professions, from doctors (for interfering in nature's plan and saving people) to those who either make or have to make decisions with far-reaching consequences.

And in that regard we can easily accuse Inquisitor or Hero Of Ferelden for "playing god" - either for making important decisions, and going as far as deciding the fate of world or nations, or going against what many have deemed "god's plan".

Apples and oranges here. This has nothing to do with going against a preestablished course or defying a set of laws.

It is the act of reshaping the entire world by your decision alone, which is exactly what a god does. Your examples merely involve saving it, not changing it, and certainly not in such a literal way.

[CapricornSun]

Mini art break.

 

Some lovely sketches of Lavellan and Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://solas-the-dre...ketches-from-my

 

 

Solas sketch.

Spoiler

Source: http://oddmoy.tumblr...ative-energy-is

 

 

Lovely sketch of young (angry) Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://beckaliz.tumb...tion-unfinished

 

[midnight tea]

Apples and oranges here. This has nothing to do with going against a preestablished course or defying a set of laws.

It is the act of reshaping the entire world by your decision alone, which is exactly what a god does. Your examples merely involve saving it, not changing it. And certainly not in such a literal way.

 

You are being selective - Solas does what he does to save the elvhen people. In that regard he's not really not that much different from HoF or Inquisitor - the major difference is that while HoF and Inquisitor reserve their saving efforts for modern Thedas, Solas does so for "his people". And 'playing god' hardly means "any action done against modern Thedosians" or "against me".

 

Also, however HoF and Inquisitor have done to save their world, their decisions have inadvertently changed it -  and so did Solas' decision to create the Veil to save the world from destruction. And after Haven even Solas tells Inquisitor: you change the entire world. Cassandra goes even farther and calls the world saved from Corypheus an act of stepping into forbidden future.

 

So... what apples and oranges are we talking about?

 

Big decisions, including saving, inadvertently lead to change.

[Qun00]

You are being selective - Solas does what he does to save the elvhen people. In that regard he's not really not that much different from HoF or Inquisitor - the major difference is that while HoF and Inquisitor reserve their saving efforts for modern Thedas, Solas does so for "his people". And 'playing god' hardly means "any action done against modern Thedosians" or "against me".

Also, however HoF and Inquisitor have done to save their world, their decisions have inadvertently changed it - and so did Solas' decision to create the Veil to save the world from destruction. And after Haven even Solas tells Inquisitor: you change everything. Cassandra goes even farther and calls the world saved from Corypheus an act of stepping into forbidden future.

So... what apples and oranges are we talking about?

Big decisions, including saving, inadvertently leads to change.

Good intentions are irrelevant to this. And well, your entire argument boils down to oversimplifying actions in order to lump them together.

Personally, I believe the "how" does matter.

[midnight tea]

Good intentions are irrelevant to this. And well, your entire argument boils down to oversimplifying actions in order to lump them together.

Personally, I believe the "how" does matter.

 

You completely missed my point. Where did I even mention good intentions?

 

All I did was I pointed out problems with your logic - you can't then turn on your heel and accuse me of oversimplifying things, when an issue appears to be as simple as "Solas is trying to save wrong people". 

 

We can argue about methods he does the saving, but this has little to do with "playing god". He's desperate and determined to save and restore the elves (whatever that means) - you can accuse him for doing it wrong (he himself doesn't look happy that this appears to be the only way open for him so far), but in a series where DA protagonists continually make major, world-changing decisions, and in Inquisition we play the only person in the world able to do certain things, the accusation of playing god is wholly redundant... which is the crux of my argument.

[Qun00]

You completely missed my point. Where did I even mention good intentions?
 
All I did was I pointed out problems with your logic - you can't then turn on your heel and accuse me of oversimplifying things.

You spoke as though a similar motivation makes two actions the same. It doesn't.

And yes, that is precisely what you're doing. One can't possibly put all these different actions in the same category as Solas. Of course, our heroes can dabble in politics and choose a new ruler, but Orlais still is Orlais. Ferelden remains mostly the same.

The Inquisitor may save the world, but his/her idea of saving is just keeping people safe. Solas' approach usually doesn't merely involve affecting the way people live or think as us mortals do when we take up a cause. He'd rather modify the literal planet moving around the sun directly. Like a god does.

[Ellawynn]

You spoke as though a similar motivation makes two actions the same. It doesn't.

And yes, that is precisely what you're doing. One can't possibly put all these different actions in the same category as Solas. Of course, our heroes can dabble in politics and choose a new ruler, but Orlais still is Orlais. Ferelden remains mostly the same.

The Inquisitor may save the world, but his/her idea of saving is just keeping people safe. Solas' approach usually doesn't merely involve affecting the way people live or think as us mortals do when we take up a cause. He'd rather modify the literal planet moving around the sun directly. Like a god does.

 

Not necessarily. Solas is making decisions on a far larger scale, yes, but the Warden, say, choosing the king of Orzammar is a choice they frankly have no right to make, especially if they're an outsider. And Orzammar can drastically change based on that decision. It could completely decay based on that decision. And yet, no one takes issue with the Warden waltzing in and tossing crowns at people. It's a pretty blatant example of how games discard logic and fairness in order to make the player feel powerful and important - after all, it'd be a pretty boring game if you sat around and just watched other people make important decisions. Which is maybe why some have a problem with Solas.

 

But a more comparable example, I think, is Shepard at the end of Mass Effect 3, especially if Synthesis is an option. No matter what you do, you're changing the galaxy, probably murdering countless people, and maybe even altering the basics of life itself. Does that mean that rejection is the only moral action for Shepard to take? Does that mean they should just sit themselves down in the middle of the Crucible and wait to be processed, because they don't have the right to play god? Should they just give up, simply because there's no good option?

 

Well, Solas is the Shepard in this equation - and his only real options are Destroy or Reject. 

 

(Also, is it really playing god if you're reverting things to the natural order? Him putting up the Veil was playing god, maybe. So wouldn't leaving it up...still be playing god, since he and his actions are still radically effecting the natural order? I mean, you can still take fault with those decisions, of course. But saying it's bad simply because it's world-effecting is... well, not tremendously helpful.)

[Cee]

Looking through Tumblr and seeing all these Solas screenshots and gifs from various parts of the game and having the feels and affection return more than they have in a while.

 

*might also currently be listening to Lost Elf*

[midnight tea]

You spoke as though a similar motivation makes two actions the same. It doesn't.

 

It does if actions you've specified that qualify someone to 'playing god' are very vague and oft interchangeable.

 

 

 

 

And yes, that is precisely what you're doing. One can't possibly put all these different actions in the same category as Solas. Of course, our heroes can dabble in politics and choose a new ruler, but Orlais still is Orlais. Ferelden remains mostly the same.

 

... Yes, because the point of Inquisition was just "dabble in politics", instead of saving entire South from wannabe god, that was about to invade them all with a demon-army (plus sealing of the Breach, which - as we've seen in future Redcliffe - would eventually tear the world apart). Totally...

 

Neither countries remain the same after that, because whatever you may want to think about other decisions we've made, the decisions Inquisitor has made, including "minor" ones - picking de-facto emperor of the South, picking head of the Chantry, picking allies in helping to seal the Breach, ending civil conflicts in both countries, negotiating peace treaties between Tevinter and Nevarra and so on, rewriting the history of Thedas by making shocking discoveries - impact the entire Thedas on macro scale.

 

...Not to a point tearing the Veil would, not arguing that, but considering that we don't know what decisions we'd have to make now, that we have to oppose Solas - which may include changing the world ourselves in some significant measure.

 

 

 

The Inquisitor may save the world, but his/her idea of saving is just keeping people safe.

 

Keeping THEIR people safe, so far as we don't know much about Solas' actual people.

 

 

Solas' approach usually doesn't merely involve affecting the way people live or think as us mortals do when we take up a cause. He'd rather modify the literal planet moving around the sun directly. Like a god does. 

 

 

Making decisions that affect the planet doesn't yet make people gods - sometimes is just an effect of necessity, or after-effect of living after achieving certain level of technological aptitude. We, humans, actually affect earth on macro-scale now - global warming, large geological changes, etc.... can we even begin to try and call ourselves gods?

 

No - just because the scale of our effect on planet has changed, and we 'technically' have "god-like" powers, especially compared to our ancestors and their limited scale of impacting their society and environment, doesn't yet make us gods. 

 

It's actually the whole point of portraying Elvenhan and Evanuris the way they currently do - theirs was the civilization that has achieved such level of magical and technological aptitude, that compared to modern Thedosians they could be considered gods. They weren't though - their decisions have shaped the planet, true, but that has not yet made them gods and, if we believe Solas, their claim to divinity was false and so was their demand from others to treat them as such and serve them. That is what Solas was against - not about making world-changing decisions, which (given favorable or unfavorable circumstances) could be accomplished by anyone.

 

This is exactly why he says "I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people."

 

It isn't about being gods or "playing god" - sometimes things have to be done, and they aren't done on a whim. Solas gambled with fate of the world ever since he's decided to go against Evanuris - he saved it once, and pretty unarguably is the creator of modern Thedas, but his victory came at a terrible cost, which he thinks caused great injustice to people on both sides. So he's trying to reverse that. I don't think anyone here, or even Solas himself, is happy with the method he's trying to do that - but this is also why we, ourselves, will likely be "playing gods" in DA4.

[Karmel]

(...) It is the act of reshaping the entire world by your decision alone, which is exactly what a god does. (...)

 

Which gods do that?

I know a few of those who make the world, give law, then possibly compel "creation" to follow them. 

 

Solas certainly has more possibilities of action than HoF or Inquisitor, because his individual achievements were remarkable, even for his own race and time. If he "reshaping" the world, it's more of Bill Gates / Steve Jobs style. Bigger can do more... As simple as that. 

[Solas]

Cole voice: delicate digits, ankles arching, skin smooth soft sensuous, inhaling the instep - [gasp] he calls himself Footlover

[almasy87]

Looking through Tumblr and seeing all these Solas screenshots and gifs from various parts of the game and having the feels and affection return more than they have in a while.

 

*might also currently be listening to Lost Elf*

That never helps D:
 

 

Not all Lavellans are created equally magnanimous my friend  

 

You're correct. For some reason I keep thinking that all Lavellans who romanced Solas must be good and sweet and diplomatic and heartbroken
But I tend to forget that people like to play the crazy hot headed evil and indipendant ones too

 

[NightSymphony]

Aaah yes, sifting through all the pictures of feet to find Solas art to share everyday...fun times. :-P

 

DA Weddings (Concept Solas and Lavellan, Fenris and Hawke, Zevran and Cousland)

http://purple-meow.d...ing-3-589353640

 

Dread Wolf

http://balladofthemo...-wolf-589337135

 

Inquisition's Dog Companion

http://otterysoup.de...anion-589365447

[Uirebhiril]

 He'd rather modify the literal planet moving around the sun directly. Like a god does.

 

You know, this bit about what Solas is planning to do always sticks out to me because he already modified the world. He put up the Veil and completely changed how reality worked. Yes, like a god does perhaps -- but people saying that NOW he wants to play God and change the world seem to forget that what he wants to do is put it back to how it was. The world is an abomination as it currently is. That our characters and countless others live in it as the only one they have ever known doesn't change the fact that it is not the natural way of things.

 

Not that he shouldn't be stopped or have his mind changed or whatever. It's just a point that gets glossed over, as if the world had always been this way and Solas decided to start kicking over sandcastles for fun. He's seeking to, as far as we know, un-rend reality. Not gleefully play whack-the-flaming-meat-pinata with people burning up from the chaos just because he's bored and got mad power to his name.

[Qun00]

Not necessarily. Solas is making decisions on a far larger scale, yes, but the Warden, say, choosing the king of Orzammar is a choice they frankly have no right to make, especially if they're an outsider. And Orzammar can drastically change based on that decision. It could completely decay based on that decision. And yet, no one takes issue with the Warden waltzing in and tossing crowns at people. It's a pretty blatant example of how games discard logic and fairness in order to make the player feel powerful and important - after all, it'd be a pretty boring game if you sat around and just watched other people make important decisions. Which is maybe why some have a problem with Solas.

But a more comparable example, I think, is Shepard at the end of Mass Effect 3, especially if Synthesis is an option. No matter what you do, you're changing the galaxy, probably murdering countless people, and maybe even altering the basics of life itself. Does that mean that rejection is the only moral action for Shepard to take? Does that mean they should just sit themselves down in the middle of the Crucible and wait to be processed, because they don't have the right to play god? Should they just give up, simply because there's no good option?

Well, Solas is the Shepard in this equation - and his only real options are Destroy or Reject.

(Also, is it really playing god if you're reverting things to the natural order? Him putting up the Veil was playing god, maybe. So wouldn't leaving it up...still be playing god, since he and his actions are still radically effecting the natural order? I mean, you can still take fault with those decisions, of course. But saying it's bad simply because it's world-effecting is... well, not tremendously helpful.)

Still missing the point. To say that change is change and there is no difference is an oversimplification of things.

A normal man tries to reduce crime by suggesting we bolster the police force's numbers. Now, God would burn the city to the ground like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Solas could try and focus on finding a way to help modern elves and/or gather the remnants of ancient elves across the world. But again, he would rather act like a god and transform the Earth itself.

[Ellawynn]

Still missing the point. To say that change is change and there is no difference is an oversimplification of things.

 

Not at all - I acknowledged there was a difference. It's why I said Shepard makes a better comparison than any DA protagonist.

 

And aren't they pretty similar? Having to decide to save all that they know and love, or accepting some horrific future where everything's going wrong. Having to destroy countless lives, maybe even countless innocents (Mortals for Solas, Geth and such for Shepard.) in order to achieve a "happy" ending? Unable to simply foist the decision onto someone else, because there is no one else. This is their duty, and they are alone in it. 

 

You could argue it's different because Shepard's actually saving the galaxy from the Reapers, whereas Solas is just a jerk who can't accept change. But, there's two things there - 1, we don't know the full extent of Solas' motivations. He explicitly refuses to tell us why he must do this (Which is why I'm a bit unsure about simply saying "He should forget it and just help the modern elves."), and 2, It's still a matter of perspective. A future besieged by Reapers and riddled with chaos could be as bad to Shepard as modern Thedas is to Solas. 

[Qun00]

It is different in that in Solas' case, saving doesn't mean "beating the bad guy and keeping people safe". More like reshaping the cosmos with possible casualties.

Yes, that is about what he can do without interfering in the lives of everyone on the planet. We don't always get everything we want. Solas will be redeemed when he learns that small victories like helping modern elves as well as the remaining ancient ones already means a great deal.

[CapricornSun]

Art break.

 

Beautiful art of Solas and Lavellan looking at the stars.

Spoiler

Source: http://noctuaalba.tu...las-give-me-all

 

 

Close up:

 

 

"The Dance". A scene from the Solavellan fic The Fox and The Wolf.

Spoiler

Source: http://thesnowmage.t...lustration-from

 

 

Solas and Lavellan from Trespasser.

Spoiler

Source: http://only-half-hum...lter-solavellan

 

 

Lovely artwork of Solas and the orb.

Spoiler

Source: http://only-half-hum...age-inquisition

 

 

"Beware the forms of Fen'Harel!"

Spoiler

Source: http://destinyaposta...-the-dread-wolf

 

 

Mages! (Mage companions from DA:O, Awakening, DA2, and DA:I)

Spoiler

Source: http://leeroic.tumbl...844773301/mages

 

 

Some DA:I companion faces by needapotion. (Cullen, Cass, Solas, and Varric.)

Spoiler

Source: http://needapotion.t...s-faces-i-would

 

[Ellawynn]

It is different in that in Solas' case, saving doesn't mean "beating the bad guy and keeping people safe". More like reshaping the cosmos with possible casualties.

Yes, that is about what he can do without interfering in the lives of everyone on the planet. We don't always get everything we want. Solas will be redeemed when he learns that small victories like helping modern elves as well as the remaining ancient ones already means a great deal.

 

Synthesis reshapes the cosmos with possible casualties. Destroy reshapes the cosmos with confirmed casualties. Control basically gives you the power to reshape the cosmos. And Reject's an unspeakably stupid option that was only put in because people wanted to shoot Ghost Kid in the face - it's basically a cute Game Over screen.

 

Who defines who the bad guy is, though? Again, we aren't entirely clear on Solas' goals. He very well could be guarding against a real and present danger like the Reapers. Or striving to end the Blight. Or simply rectifying what is, to him, basically an apocalyptic wasteland. I think you could easily construe any of those as "bad guys."  And Solas is saving people. There are ancient elves that have been ostracized in the wilds. That have  been trapped in Uthanera. That have been locked away in the Fade itself - and that's to say nothing of the spirits, demons like Wisdom or shattered remnants like the Library guide. There are people Solas is trying to save. They just aren't people we really care about.

 

For the record, I'm not saying I support what Solas wants to do. I'm not saying he shouldn't be stopped. He should, or at the very least, he needs to look for a less murder-y solution. I'm just agreeing that the player characters, Shepard in particular, have been in basically the same situation as him. 

[CapricornSun]

*looks around and drops some art* 

 

Art post.

 

Solas meets Lavellan and decides that he'll destroy the world at a later time.

Spoiler

Source: http://isaiki.tumblr...been-playing-so

 

 

'Anaconda'. Solas and Lavellan. 

Spoiler

Source: http://babes-of-thed...586/im-so-sorry

 

 

Lovely sketches of Solas and Lavellan being all romantic by our thaali.

Spoiler

Source: http://solaslover.tu...-playing-around

 

 

A bit of Solavellan angst.

Spoiler

Source: http://juledraws.tum...louds-away-dont

 

 

Sexy topless Solas with nipple piercings. (NSFW-ish) 

Spoiler

Source: http://minionripleyn...-request-on-the

 

 

Solas tarot idea.

Spoiler

Source: http://str-gazer.tum...ions-too-just-a

 

[Solas]

I'm gonna be replaying Trespasser again tonight I think, experience things and take a look at them again with fresh eyes.

I was re-watching the various endings on YouTube and Stop Solas.. Bear in mind I've yet to decide what my Canonquiz elects to do with the Inquisition and as regards Solas (she's my Solasmancer). I've played it both ways and I dunno. I know what I want to pick which is redeem but it's not me or my world. I'm role playing a character I set out and don't want to pick something that's character-breaking. So I turn it over and over wondering what would she do would she really do x and so on. Anyway that's not the point of my post xD

What I was thinking was that I re-watched the endings and Stop Solas didn't seem crazy or evil - its just I'm coming to stop you, I will stop you at any cost. (When it's not the actions of a low approval Inquisitor who just hates Solas and is happy for the chance to get revenge I guess) it feels like the actions of a pragmatist who sees a threat to the world and their recourse is to combat that threat by any means necessary. Even good Inquisitors might make that decision, depending on their personality. I think of my Gryff (not saying she's Good-aligned) and she doesn't have the meta knowledge that I do that he may be redeemable. Many Inquisitors obviously see that potential in Solas as part of their character and that's legit, I'm just wondering aloud whether my own Inquisitor has the capacity to see that, or if she does see it then then does she have the ability to ignore it? She's not a bad person but she has specific and defined flaws that come into play here.

I think I get bored quite easily playing magnanimous idealists xD

[TheyCallMeBunny]

I just realized, from what I can tell here most solasmancers seem to create at least two (often far more) characters to romance Solas, and I totally get that because then you can explore new aspects of their relationship... but I've never been able to romance my favorite characters with new characters! For example, despite having 7-8 different world states, Alistair is only ever together with my canon Warden, and the same can be said for Fenris and my canon Hawke. Solas is no exception to this rule. It's not a jealousy thing or anything like that, I love to encourage people to try these romances! The more people to discuss and gush with the better! Am I the only one that has this weird quirk?  ​  

[Solas]

I'm a one Solasmancer person  I explore different options in the romance just by reloading or loading an earlier save, and even parts of other romances (ex. dumping Solas and activating Cullen) in the same way. 

 

To truly play other romances the full-way through I make different characters.

[Solas]

"past!Solas: “I have made the veil”

future!Solas: “You fucked up a perfectly good race is what you did. Look at it. It’s got mortality”"

lmao   sent to me

[CapricornSun]

I just realized, from what I can tell here most solasmancers seem to create at least two (often far more) characters to romance Solas, and I totally get that because then you can explore new aspects of their relationship... but I've never been able to romance my favorite characters with new characters! For example, despite having 7-8 different world states, Alistair is only ever together with my canon Warden, and the same can be said for Fenris and my canon Hawke. Solas is no exception to this rule. It's not a jealousy thing or anything like that, I love to encourage people to try these romances! The more people to discuss and gush with the better! Am I the only one that has this weird quirk?  ​  

 

I have the same quirk. I can't imagine creating another Lavellan to romance Solas. For me, I could only ever see Solas with my Tala and making another Lavellan to romance him seems like I'm cheating on my canon Solasmancer. (I know it's weird but that's how I am.)

 

The only time where I've actually romanced my favorite character with a new character was in DA:O when I created a Surana to romance Alistair to get the mistress ending. (Mahariel and Alistair is my canon romance for DA:O.) The funny thing is, I ended up quite liking my Surana but sadly I never finished her playthrough.

 

But yeah, nothing against people who make new characters to romance their favorite characters.

 

EDIT: I never mentioned my Hawkes. I've made a few Hawkes, each romancing a different person, My canon F!Hawke mage romanced Anders and my alt M!Hawke warrior romanced Merrill. I did make a F!Hawke rogue to romance Fenris, a M!Hawke mage for Isabela, and a F!Hawke warrior for Sebastian but I never finished those playthroughs. ^__^;