It could have been actual interbreeding or even forced breeding (Mongolian Genghis Khan style). It also would not have been a stretch to imagine the Elves they bred with removed from the records or had their names humanized. Recall Dorian talking about Tevinter taking their lineages seriously. If they had an Elf in there somewhere in their family line, they most probably did not know about it.
Well, we do know that something similar happened to Ameridan.
I think so too as well. Magical proficiency is the related to how well one understands magical concepts and how well one is capable of manipulating the Veil and the energies of the Fade (unless if it is blight magic or blood magic). This has no relevance on someone's capacity to learn, read, write, and speak.
Its one of the things that I think exists due to D&D influence where mages are supposed to be the "intelligent" class and therefore the other class usually gets shafted when it comes to being educated or knowledgeable unless they themselves learn some form of magic. For example, a Rogue in D&D only really needs to invest in Intelligence if they want to be an Arcane Trickster (learn some spells) and a Fighter only really needs to invest in Intelligence if they want to be an Eldritch Knight (again, learn some spells). I can understand this from game balance perspective but I find it lame that spellcasting = intelligence.
To be fair, this has SOME historical basis.
D&D is basically a Medieval European fantasy setting, and in real-life Medieval Europe society was (ideally) divided into three sections: those who fight (the nobility), those who pray (the clergy), and those who labor (the peasantry). In Medieval European society only the clergy were consistenly educated and literate; they alone dedicated their lives to learning how to read and write and record historical and religious documents, while the rest of society did physical labor of some kind. (Working the land for peasants, working with goods for merchants, creating goods for artisans or craftsmen, fighting and hunting for the nobility, etc.)
This was sort of extended for the D&D setting. The "intelligent" classes are the ones who have their physical needs met and thus can afford to sit hunkered up in a dark room reading texts and tomes all day (not to mention writing tomes, books, and scrolls, which was all hand-written before the invention of the printing press, which was dang time-consuming). If you're a peasant who has to work the land all day or a fighter who has to train in combat all hours of the day to win against real opponents, you don't have the time to sit pouring over documents all the time. There simply aren't enough hours in the day.
Plus, like you said, gameplay balance. (Although I am glad newer games from newer IP are starting to do away with this, like with Pillars of Eternity, where different classes can be educated, and/or there are different kinds of education that work for different classes.)
However, as for the Dalish...
I can't believe we didn't catch onto this sooner. It seems so obvious now with Solas' revelations but you are right. In Dalish clans, some Elves are more equal than others though the disparity is not that obvious unlike, say Tevinter where if you are a non-mage, you are pretty much screwed.
Except the Dalish never claimed they were all 100% equal or all had 100% equal say in decision-making. Each clan is a group, each group needs a leader, and their Keepers are the leaders. All things considered, if they have to elect a leader, at least they choose based on knowledge and cultural memory (the elves were once immortal and magical, and they revere magic as a dying part of their culture, so they choose someone in touch with a part of their dying culture and who can ideally teach and guide based on knowledge and wisdom) instead of, say, the one who can hit things the hardest. (*cough*Andrastianhumansociety*cough*real-worldfeudalsocieties*cough*)
Also, there's no such thing as a perfect society where everyone is 100% equal. That's a myth that's been pursued many times throughout history and always crashed and burned. (There's a reason Sir Thomas More named his ideal society "Utopia," which is Greek for "not" or "place," meaning "no place," as in he knew such a place couldn't exist.) It's just not possible in group dynamics--not everyone is gonna agree or get alone or share the burden of decision making. Where there's a group, there has to be a leader.
I mean, Andrastian human nations are all monarchies, yet I don't see you accusing them of tyranny like Tevinter and Ancient Elvenan.
Honestly though, if you think about it, rogues and warriors are a lot more vital to a society because mages do not hunt for food or domesticate animals for food or grow plants or maintain social order (even in Tevinter justice is relegated to the non-magical Templars).
You could say the same about people who work with their hands in real-life. The peasants of feudal societies, modern-day farmers and mechanics and janitors and other blue collar works who do most of the physical labor of keeping our society up and running, yet tend to get the lowest pay and least amount of respect, and who don't tend to make as much pay as white collar workers / those who work with their "minds" (doctors, lawyers, Congressmen, etc).
But that's not human nature. Generally speaking, the people who do the physical labor are rarely the ones throughout history who lead in society, whereas the ones who have access to the most education and the "softer" lifestyle (as in not doing back-breaking labor for a living) were the ones who led and continue to lead. It's not right, but that's usually how it is.
In short, it's not just the elves or Tevinter.
I would not be surprised to learn in future games that Elven nobility bred the way like Tevinter nobility did. After all, according to Solas, Tevinter is built on the remnants of his people and we now known that by his people he means the Ancient Elves. Isn't it really ironic that the spiritual successor to Ancient Elvhenan, the ones who are carrying their actual traditions, are not the Dalish Elves or the City Elves, but Tevinter Imperium ?
Is it any different from Andrastian nobility believing they have "noble blood," and choosing to breed with only other nobles to keep their "noble bloodlines" pure? (When in reality most nobles got their stuff from their ancestors being the most savage warlords who managed to kill/drive away other warlords and then force the common folk to pay them to live on "their" lands, then work the land to produce food, and then give the noble family the lion's share of their crops despite the noble family doing none of the work?) Which conveniently keeps all the wealth, lands, prestige, and stuff in the hands of the noble families and out of the hands of the common "riff-raff"?
It's not just Tevinter or Ancient Elvhenan. That's just humanoid nature. Those in power will always find a way to justify it by saying whatever inborn ability they have that the masses don't makes them "special" and deserving of ruling (having noble blood for feudal lords, being magically gifted for mage societies), and they're gonna jealously guard those traits to keep the power in the hands of their elite families and out of the hands of the riff-raff.
Some even speculate that the Tevinter Altus class has purposefully interbred with elves in order to increase magical potential in their offspring. Hard to say... But since elf-blooded look just like humans, it's possible.
I'm in that party.
Elves = slaves but had great inborn magical power + Tevinter = the ones with power who coveted more inborn magical power + elf/human relations = human offspring. I refuse to believe for a moment that ancient Tevinter didn't find a way to put elven magical blood into their own bloodstreams but keep power out of the hands of elven mage slaves with so convenient a set-up. (Unless specifically told otherwise by the devs.)
I deal with this by using the idea that the Chantry set out to educate the masses enough for them to read/understand the Chant of Light or other such religious texts. So the population would have basic literacy even if they had no further education. Dalish clans, possibly less so, but it's not hard to imagine that some clans took in a literate city elf or some other such thing if it helps a character to make sense.
And even if your Lavellan or Brosca is pig-ignorant and only knows prayers by being verbally taught, nothing is stopping them from learning to read or write or otherwise become educated once they are in a position of some authority and surrounded by others who are learned.
That could explain why people know how to read (And lead to some interesting cultural quirk where everyone writes things in Chantry verse form, because that's how they learned to read and write, and they haven't got much experience with "normal" writing.) But it doesn't explain all the literature everywhere. Or Varric's entire existence. Being an author wouldn't have been a remotely well-known or sustainable profession if there weren't some method of mass producing literature. He certainly wouldn't be gathering fanclubs or have copies of his novels lying around typical homes. So I imagine Thedas has to have invented the printing press, or something like it.
And yeah, I really, really like the idea of an Inquisitor who's... maybe somewhat lacking in their education, being taught and trained by their companions. I like the idea of my Lavellan having bad spelling, terrible handwriting, and a limited written vocabulary (That's suspiciously overdeveloped in the areas of trade, directions, and elven history.) with her spending a lot of late nights with Varric learning how to properly write letters, or Josephine teaching her elocution and etiquette, or Cullen teaching her history and tactics. I think it'd give a really interesting dimension to her relationship with Solas too, given how much he likes to teach.
It disappoints me that most fanfic doesn't really touch upon that.
*snip*
Your entire post centers around the notion that humans are just as bad as the rest and that I do not criticize Andrastians and Humans.
The first part is true - Humans are just as bad as everyone else. The reality that Humans are as bad as everyone else is a given at this point. However, prior to Inquisition, we have only seen Elves being portrayed as the victim and things such as information on the incident at Red Crossing coupled with the revelation about Ancient Elves show, show, for the first time in the series, that Elves are not total victims. It made Theodosian Elves more believable since no one is a victim 100% of the time and since this is the first game to highlight that, I brought it up.
The second part is abhorrently false. I have criticized Andrastians and monarchies more times than I care to count. I despise monarchy as a system. I just so happen to extend that courtesy of criticism to the Evanuris, Ancient Elves and the Dalish sometimes. If you notice, I never criticize City Elves because there is no real reason for me to do it.
I suppose I have to make one thing very clear to you - I do not roleplay as an Elf who hates humans. The Elven characters I have roleplayed tend to dislike specific people. Those people can include other Elves and Dalish Elves.
In fact I would go as far as to say that your post is that of a Dalish apologist trying to deflect blame by saying false things about me. Truly, I have criticized Andrastians and monarchies many times before, just not in this post.
Look, everyone screws up. But until recently, we did not know that Elves screwed up big time. Both in Ancient Elvhenan and in the Dales. There is nothing wrong if someone wants to talk about that and there is most definitely nothing with me wanting to play an Elf who is realistic in their world view and see that the blame should not be solely placed on Humans but that you have to place some on Elves as well. Being an apologist is simply engaging in a form of obscurantism which prevents productive discussions. I mean really, according to your post I should not be saying anything against the Dalish because Humans are bad, Andrastians are bad and monarchies are bad. Yeah, they are and they can be. So what ? It doesn't negate the reality that Elves did bad things too.
That could explain why people know how to read (And lead to some interesting cultural quirk where everyone writes things in Chantry verse form, because that's how they learned to read and write, and they haven't got much experience with "normal" writing.) But it doesn't explain all the literature everywhere. Or Varric's entire existence. Being an author wouldn't have been a remotely well-known or sustainable profession if there weren't some method of mass producing literature. He certainly wouldn't be gathering fanclubs or have copies of his novels lying around typical homes. So I imagine Thedas has to have invented the printing press, or something like it.
Bioware doesn't take its own lore and world building seriously. If printing presses are rare, books should be treasured items costing lots of money. Yet they are seen as cheap stuff or junk.
In addition, people who can read should be treasured, but no one seems to care about it. Furthermore, you can find books among almost all group of people except the Casteless of Orzammar.
So the conclusion is that printing presses aren't rare which means we can assume that those who want to learn how to be literate can do so and that it is not impossible.
Heh, the Dalish camp in the Exalted Plains used written language to keep track of their supplies. So... they definitely had to have a reasonable level of literacy.
Edited to add: Among humans, at least, I do think the setting does not closely follow Earth history in terms of literacy rates. Templars, Mages, and religious folk all are taught to read and write as a matter of course. And for the more secular or less martial types, there are universities.
Even in the hovels in the Hinterlands, it wasn't uncommon to find a book. I imagine the desire to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world is, in part, why literacy seems pretty high in Thedas.
There are universities, but that's nothing new even in our history. Oxford was founded nearly a thousand years ago, after all. Similarly, Christianity was always being actively spread across the world, but literacy still wasn't a thing for a very long time. Creating literature was too inefficient - it'd take months to make a single copy of a novel - for reading (by our current standards) to have been widespread. It's actually really interesting to look up European history and find out about all the ways people tried to communicate information without writing. For instance, churches would put on morality plays as a way of teaching the scripture. Taverns would often be named after distinctive things ("The Hanged Man," "The Black Pearl," "The Adjective/Adverb Noun.") so that those who couldn't read could recognize them based on a picture - "I can't read what the inn's name is, but it's got a flying pig painted over the door, so I guess it's the Flying Pig Inn."
That being said, I'm pretty sure the writers are sort of... moving away from the medieval image anyway. Maybe it's just me, but Halamshiral seemed very... regency, to me. The fashions, the titles, the style all seemed a little more luxurious and refined than what I'd expect of a medieval monarch. "Emperor" wasn't used to describe the French head of state until Napoleon, and let's not even mention that terrifically anachronistic outfit they put the Inquisitor in.
Maybe that's why everyone thinks Fereldan is backwards - Thedas as a whole is moving into the Renaissance, while Fereldan's still stuck in the middle ages.
Maybe that's why everyone thinks Fereldan is backwards - Thedas as a whole is moving into the Renaissance, while Fereldan's still stuck in the middle ages.
Which is why you harden Alistair and get him to marry Anora. Alistair is pro-Elven rights and Anora wants to improve Ferelden education by building a university. Its time the dog lords got themselves some modernization.
Which is why you harden Alistair and get him to marry Anora. Alistair is pro-Elven rights and Anora wants to improve Ferelden education by building a university. Its time the dog lords got themselves some modernization.
It does raise some questions though, given that the Renaissance was started and influenced by the rediscovery of Classical culture. But what qualifies as Classical culture for Thedas? Ancient Tevinter? Elvhenan? How is it being rediscovered, and incorporated into current Thedosian culture?
...That does make current events a bit ironic though, especially if Elvhenan is the supposed to the be the Thedosian equivalent of ancient Rome. Someone should tell Solas that no one meant the term "Renaissance" to be taken literally.
(That also says interesting things about how we think of Tevinter - obviously modern Tevinter is Byzantine, and in terms of how it basically whole-sale copied a previous culture, ancient Tevinter could've been Rome as well, which would make Elvhenan the Greeks (Probably Athens if we're being specific.) But Athens never saw a whole of expansion, and it certainly never had control over a significant portion of the continent. Hmm. And it is Elvhenan's... "rediscovery," (To put what Solas plans to do lightly) that will bring in the new age.)
Honestly, I gave up trying to explain books everywhere at about the time I found a copy of Varric's book in the Lost Temple of Dirthamen.
That... okay, yeah, that's fair.
Honestly, I gave up trying to explain books everywhere at about the time I found a copy of Varric's book in the Lost Temple of Dirthamen.
That... okay, yeah, that's fair.
That's easy - Solas dropped it. 
There are universities, but that's nothing new even in our history. Oxford was founded nearly a thousand years ago, after all. Similarly, Christianity was always being actively spread across the world, but literacy still wasn't a thing for a very long time. Creating literature was too inefficient - it'd take months to make a single copy of a novel - for reading (by our current standards) to have been widespread. It's actually really interesting to look up European history and find out about all the ways people tried to communicate information without writing. For instance, churches would put on morality plays as a way of teaching the scripture. Taverns would often be named after distinctive things ("The Hanged Man," "The Black Pearl," "The Adjective/Adverb Noun.") so that those who couldn't read could recognize them based on a picture - "I can't read what the inn's name is, but it's got a flying pig painted over the door, so I guess it's the Flying Pig Inn."
That being said, I'm pretty sure the writers are sort of... moving away from the medieval image anyway. Maybe it's just me, but Halamshiral seemed very... regency, to me. The fashions, the titles, the style all seemed a little more luxurious and refined than what I'd expect of a medieval monarch. "Emperor" wasn't used to describe the French head of state until Napoleon, and let's not even mention that terrifically anachronistic outfit they put the Inquisitor in.
Maybe that's why everyone thinks Fereldan is backwards - Thedas as a whole is moving into the Renaissance, while Fereldan's still stuck in the middle ages.
Well, we do hear that Bianca basically invented steam engine. The Industrial Era appears to be a possibility, though that also largely depends on change of society's mindset.
Honestly, I gave up trying to explain books everywhere at about the time I found a copy of Varric's book in the Lost Temple of Dirthamen.
Lol, we do know that there was a crew of adventurers there. We find their bodies all around the temple. From notes they've left it seems at least some of them were literate.
It does raise some questions though, given that the Renaissance was started and influenced by the rediscovery of Classical culture. But what qualifies as Classical culture for Thedas? Ancient Tevinter? Elvhenan? How is it being rediscovered, and incorporated into current Thedosian culture?
...That does make current events a bit ironic though, especially if Elvhenan is the supposed to the be the Thedosian equivalent of ancient Rome. Someone should tell Solas that no one meant the term "Renaissance" to be taken literally.
(That also says interesting things about how we think of Tevinter - obviously modern Tevinter is Byzantine, and in terms of how it basically whole-sale copied a previous culture, ancient Tevinter could've been Rome as well, which would make Elvhenan the Greeks (Probably Athens if we're being specific.) But Athens never saw a whole of expansion, and it certainly never had control over a significant portion of the continent. Hmm. And it is Elvhenan's... "rediscovery," (To put what Solas plans to do lightly) that will bring in the new age.)
I think there the difference between Theodosian Renaissance and Earth Renaissance is that there is no wholesale acceptance and incorporation of the "classical" culture.
The classical culture, in this case the pre-Veil Elvhenan and old Tevinter Imperium had many flaws but it had it benefits. You just have to look at all the ancient Elven wonders, artifacts, magic and technosorcery such as their Eluvians and realize that so much has been lost. For all the bad the Imperium did, it gave way to long enduring constructions of roads, highways, and many more.
Yet, not all that is lost needs to be reincorporated into the current state of things. Examples include - Slavery, caste systems, inherent preferential treatment of mages, tampering with forces one cannot control & understand like the Blight and Red Lyrium.
Well, we do hear that Bianca basically invented steam engine. The Industrial Era appears to be a possibility, though that also largely depends on change of society's mindset.
The weaving loom was also a pretty important step on the road to modernization, especially the Jacquard loom which invented the technology that would eventually lead to computer programming and hardware. So I wonder how Thedas' weaving industry is doing...
I think there the difference between Theodosian Renaissance and Earth Renaissance is that there is no wholesale acceptance and incorporation of the "classical" culture.
The classical culture, in this case the pre-Veil Elvhenan and old Tevinter Imperium had many flaws but it had it benefits. You just have to look at all the ancient Elven wonders, artifacts, magic and technosorcery such as their Eluvians and realize that so much has been lost. For all the bad the Imperium did, it gave way to long enduring constructions of roads, highways, and many more.
Yet, not all that is lost needs to be reincorporated into the current state of things. Examples include - Slavery, caste systems, inherent preferential treatment of mages, tampering with forces one cannot control & understand like the Blight and Red Lyrium.
I know, I just thought it was a little ironic, how what Solas plans to do is a "rebirth" or sorts, with the intent of rediscovering lost knowledge and culture so that it can be built upon and improved.
(Although I think we'll always have problems with messing with forces one doesn't understand or control. For that matter, we'll also probably always have people who blindly reject any forces they don't understand or control.)
Honestly, I gave up trying to explain books everywhere at about the time I found a copy of Varric's book in the Lost Temple of Dirthamen.
Wasn't there a crew of tomb raiders there? Maybe one of them read it.
Huh... okay, this is interesting. I didn't notice it before.
Anybody else finds it interesting that when a befriended Inquisitor lets Solas do his magic to take the Anchor, their real palm is a tightly clenched fist - but the "Anchory"/glowy hand is extended? And once Solas takes it away, or whatever he does, it sort of realigns itself with Inky's real arm (though it basically mimics Solas' gesture)?
Huh... okay, there's interesting. I didn't notice it before.
Anybody else finds it interesting that when a befriended Inquisitor lets Solas do his magic to take the Anchor, their real palm is a tightly clenched fist - but the "Anchory"/glowy hand is extended? And once Solas takes it away, or whatever he does, it sort of realigns itself with Inky's real arm (though it basically mimics Solas' gesture)?
Is that a flycam angle? It's possible we're not meant to be seeing that.
On a silly note, the sound for the spell Solas cast to magically amputate your arm reminds me of the Muffle spell from Elder Scrolls Skyrim. Really. just listen to it and compare it to the Muffle spell. It even has the same colors. I only realized this because I used the Muffle spell a lot since I played as an Illusionist Bosmer Archer.
On a silly note, the sound for the spell Solas cast to magically amputate your arm reminds me of the Muffle spell from Elder Scrolls Skyrim. Really. just listen to it and compare it to the Muffle spell. It even has the same colors. I only realized this because I used the Muffle spell a lot since I played as an Illusionist Bosmer Archer.
I knew it was familiar! That's probably my most cast spell thanks to the 'level illusion, reset illusion' levelling technique.
I knew it was familiar! That's probably my most cast spell thanks to the 'level illusion, reset illusion' levelling technique.
Plot twist - Solas uses illusion magic to muffle your arm away. Your arm is now numb & tingly so you don't think it is there but it still is. 
Is that a flycam angle? It's possible we're not meant to be seeing that.
Well, it's definitely not a default angle we see in the cinematic.
The default one is this:
Alternatively there are videos on youtube with a full scene. Nope, we can't see that:
Plot twist - Solas uses illusion magic to muffle your arm away. Your arm is now numb & tingly so you don't think it is there but it still is.
LoL, the irony is that I sometimes think that's what he may have done. Silenced the Anchor away and made Inky think nothing's there (well, the lack of arm certainly reinforces that notion ;P)
Heh, the Dalish camp in the Exalted Plains used written language to keep track of their supplies. So... they definitely had to have a reasonable level of literacy.
Edited to add: Among humans, at least, I do think the setting does not closely follow Earth history in terms of literacy rates. Templars, Mages, and religious folk all are taught to read and write as a matter of course. And for the more secular or less martial types, there are universities.
Even in the hovels in the Hinterlands, it wasn't uncommon to find a book. I imagine the desire to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world is, in part, why literacy seems pretty high in Thedas.
Well, it's not like literacy rate in Europe was indicative of literacy rate among other cultures and nations. During the Islamic Golden Age (8-13th century) the Islamic Empire had a high literacy rate. So did classical Athens.
That's definitely a Flycam record but I would not put too much thought into it.. It's possibly just the fact that with the power of the Anchor the hand was "tense" cause it was pulsating with energy so maybe the fingers were extended and Inqui couldn't properly move the hand, but once the power is gone the hand either "relaxes" or (for how I see it) dies out cause it was already dead so it becomes "softer" and the fingers go back into the normal position. If you put your palm facing up and relax the fingers will close, it's not meant to stay open..
That's definitely a Flycam record but I would not put too much thought into it.. It's possibly just the fact that with the power of the Anchor the hand was "tense" cause it was pulsating with energy so maybe the fingers were extended and Inqui couldn't properly move the hand, but once the power is gone the hand either "relaxes" or (for how I see it) dies out cause it was already dead so it becomes "softer" and the fingers go back into the normal position. If you put your palm facing up and relax the fingers will close, it's not meant to stay open..
I don't mean the gesture, but the fact that there are two palms One is open and another is balled into a fist. And whatever Solas is doing, it realigns them.
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