153434 réponses à ce sujet

[Ellawynn]

I'd love to have dual protagonists (or protagonists inadvertently serving as unwitting antagonists to the other), but it's problematic because games rarely manage to pull it off as well as they could have.

 

Halo 2 and 5 were great examples of how not to do it. Which is a shame because the Arbiter is a total boss and Locke could be interesting in his own right, but because they weren't the sole protagonist of the game, you always ended up feeling that they were playing second fiddle to Chief and lamenting the time he wasn't on screen.

 

The Assassin's Creed games also botched this in their first few games, because while Desmond was the nominal protagonist, he wasn't nearly as interesting as when we were playing as Altair or Ezio in the past. Then you had AC3 which gave us a great character in Haytham at the beginning, only to then force us to play the dull-as-dishwater Connor for the rest of the game, then cap it off by killing off Desmond in a lacklustre fashion.

 

So far the only game I can think of that's managed to pull this off recently with any kind of success has been Dreamfall: Chapters, although thus far the stories and protagonists have been mostly separate, so it's in the air whether they'll pull it off if/when the storylines converge.

 

In all fairness, Assassin's Creed could've very well pulled off the Desmond/Other protagonist thing if the writing quality in that series wasn't complete crap. I'm pretty sure the things wrong with that story are due more to the writers rather than any model or structure they use. 

 

Like, remember that one plotline where the Roman god Juno popped out of an apple, mind controls you into killing your girlfriend, and then lectures you about the coming apocalypse in 2012?

 

Yeah.

 

(Also I really, really need to play Dreamfall.)

 

Solavellan is a tragedy,there are chance that Lavellan will never be able to met Solas ever again.

 

Being a tragedy doesn't mean you can't cheat yourself out of giving resolution. If I were being generous, I'd call it "open-ended." If I were being anything else, I'd call it awful writing.

[Qun00]

If the writers want to keep Solas from ever going full villain, they'd better have him reject the foolish elves seeking him out right now.

Using the Dalish as expendable pawns and feeding them false hope of being part of his new world would taint his image even further.

[CapricornSun]

Art post again.

 

Adorable modern AU polaroid picture of Solas and Lavellan sleeping on public transport. 

Spoiler

Source: http://reubelyn.tumb...came-from-but-i

 

 

Beautiful artwork of Solas painting a picture of Lavellan. (NSFW because she's nude.)

Spoiler

Source: http://onehundred-fa...painting-them-3

 

 

Adorable Solavellan WIP sketch.

Spoiler

Source: http://theresa-draws...ing-in-progress

 

 

"Stop working, Solas." (Solavellan)

Spoiler

Source: http://thefluffynug....a-malina-doesnt

 

 

Solas in front of an eluvian. (Nice!)

Spoiler

Source: http://kupieckorzenn...-do-some-fanart
 

 

'Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf'. (I don't remember if I've shared this before but oh well. )

Spoiler

Source: http://selen-patate....-the-dread-wolf

 

 

A rather sad Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://solavellanvak...253592502/haven

 

 

The Inquisition dad wars. (Cole, Solas, and Varric.)

Spoiler

Source: http://anbattl.tumbl...music-starts-to

 

 

The Inquisitor gives everyone fancy hats.

Spoiler

Source: http://snaaaaaaakee....od-at-this-game

 

[midnight tea]

If the writers want to keep Solas from ever going full villain, they'd better have him reject the foolish elves seeking him out right now.

Using the Dalish as expendable pawns and feeding them false hope of being part of his new world would taint his image even further.

 

That's assuming that there are many foolish elves seeking him out - but so far we don't know that. I mean, why would they do that, when most don't even know who Fen'Harel is and the Dalish consider him a traitor? Plus, we have no clue how much Inquistor has spilled about Solas' plans and true identity.

So we don't really know why and where elves disappear to. In fact, the only indicator that they're rallied somewhere by someone or something comes from remark of an elf in Val Royeaux who mentions that a woman called Mythal haunts his dreams. Thing is this banter can activate right after ToM - so some time prior to Solas obtaining's Flemythal's powers.

[Elessara]

That's assuming that there are many foolish elves seeking him out - but so far we don't know that. I mean, why would they do that, when most don't even know who Fen'Harel is and the Dalish consider him a traitor? Plus, we have no clue how much Inquistor has spilled about Solas' plans and true identity.

So we don't really know why and where elves disappear to. In fact, the only indicator that they're rallied somewhere by someone or something comes from remark of an elf in Val Royeaux who mentions that a woman called Mythal haunts his dreams. Thing is this banter can activate right after ToM - so some time prior to Solas obtaining's Flemythal's powers.

 

Trespasser ending slide.  Mentions elves disappearing and people wondering just how many forces Fen'Harel has.

 

Although, remember BioWare's caveat on ending slides heh.

[Uirebhiril]

Trespasser ending slide.  Mentions elves disappearing and people wondering just how many forces Fen'Harel has.

 

Although, remember BioWare's caveat on ending slides heh.

 

I, for one, would have loved to see psychopath murderer Cullen. Just imagine that character arc.

[midnight tea]

Trespasser ending slide.  Mentions elves disappearing and people wondering just how many forces Fen'Harel has.

 

Although, remember BioWare's caveat on ending slides heh.

 

Yes - it mentions people wondering just how many forces Fen'Harel has. As in: it only mentions rumors and people's assumptions. It says nothing of who really is behind the elf rallying and what purpose there is to it.

[Elessara]

Yes - it mentions people wondering just how many forces Fen'Harel has. As in: it only mentions rumors and people's assumptions. It says nothing of who really is behind the elf rallying and what purpose there is to it.

 

You said the only indicator that elves were gathering was some elf in Val Royeux who mentioned a woman calling herself Mythal.  As far as I know he doesn't mention elves going to join her or anything like that.  I was just saying the idea that elves from all over are joining the Dread Wolf came from Trespasser.  But that could also be the Qunari withdrawing their informants as they like to use elves (and humans) as spies.   

[Qun00]

Regardless of minor details, do you guys believe Solas would manipulate these desperate people?

He is good at playing his enemies, but he supposedly treats his allies well.

[Suketchi]

Regardless of minor details, do you guys believe Solas would manipulate these desperate people?

He is good at playing his enemies, but he supposedly treats his allies well.

 

Who says he would have to manipulate or lie in order to gain their allegiance? A lot of the elven people are desperate, It's not so difficult to imagine them willingly giving their lives to bring back a world where their people are no longer subjugated or oppressed.  

[CapricornSun]

Art break. 

 

'That was his whiskey.' Solas with a drunk Lavellan by nanananananablr.

Spoiler

Source: http://nanananananab...was-hes-whiskey

 

 

WIP of Solas carrying his daughter by kallielef.

Spoiler

Source: http://kallielef.tum...-piece-ive-been

 

 

Solas kissing Lavellan in the rotunda.

Spoiler

Source: http://fenkurwaharel...ketch-my-quizzy

 

 

'May the Dread Wolf take you.' 

Spoiler

Source: http://1221s.tumblr....very-conflicted
 

 

What could have been. (Solavellan)

Spoiler

Source: http://athousanddayy...could-have-been

 

 

Solas in a flower crown. 

Spoiler

Source: http://louminx.tumbl...ings-of-serious

 

 

Warmup sketches of Solas and Sera.

Spoiler

Source: http://destinyaposta...0841832/warmups

 

 

Modern AU Solas, Sera, Dorian, and Bull in shades and in a car.

Spoiler

Source: http://hopahopa.tumb...orite-character

 

[Addictress]

Actually why not just make the inquisitor a companion? We're not restricted to one protagonist, we always have a team. And of course you "control" companions.

The dual protagonist conflict really isn't necessary at all.

[Ellawynn]

Regardless of minor details, do you guys believe Solas would manipulate these desperate people?

He is good at playing his enemies, but he supposedly treats his allies well.

 

Maybe? When I step back from it and think "What would Solas be okay with?" in a general sense, pretty much the first answer I come up with is "Anything and everything." Like, let's set aside all the theories on his plans and what they'll do and take the superficial, worst-case scenario reading of Trespasser - Solas' plans will destroy the world, everyone will die, he has no better reason for it than his own guilt and nostalgia, etc, etc. That's the scenario we're working with - and in this scenario, the world's a zero sum to Solas. None of it matters, because all of it will be destroyed. In this scenario, I don't think there's a whole lot Solas wouldn't be willing to sacrifice, because he's going to sacrifice all of it, sooner or later. So it might as well do some good in the mean time, right? 

 

But on the other hand - blatant lies and propaganda doesn't really seem like Solas' style? Compare to the deception he gave the Inquisition - it was built on lies of omission and twisted truth rather than flat-out propaganda. And even then, the help he gave was sincere, and he honestly tried to help the Inquisition achieve it's goals. Not to mention - and this is important - it was a lie only he could really betray (Well, until we started running into Nightmare demons and ancient elves, but that wasn't really foreseeable.) Even if people found him suspicious, there's no way they'd jump to the conclusion that he's a Dalish god in disguise. The truth he was trying to conceal was pretty damn secure.

 

But here - here is a lie that a shitload of other people could betray, and Solas wouldn't be able to do much about it. He'd have to be feeding mountains of false information to a very large amount of people, and if one of his higher-ranking followers turned traitor, or the Inquisitor found some irrefutable proof of his manipulations, then they'd all turn on him. It's a cheap and stupidly unsafe way of gaining followers. One man with the truth could completely unravel whole swaths of his operations - nevermind the morality of it, it simply isn't practical. 

 

But that's also why it shows up so much in fiction. That's why they did it with Corypheus. It isn't practical - which means it presents a clear and easy path to victory for the hero. Simply find the truth and show it to the antagonist's followers - boom, done. 

 

And personally? I don't want it to be that easy with Solas. 

Like, I think he has massive amounts of potential to be a truly formidable and complex villain. You to stop him by undermining his support base? Well, good luck, because he wasn't dumb enough to win them through lies and manipulation, he won them with sincere concern and generosity that they weren't getting in this broken world. Want to stop the very important ritual he has to do to further his plans? Well, you can try, but he wasn't stupid enough to blow up a political convention and kill the not-Pope just to add to the "symbolism" of it. You want to expose his plans and reveal to the world that he's a world-destroying monster? Well that's a little hard, because he's been sheltering apostates and raiding slaver convoys and, oh look, he just helped the Inquisitor subvert a Qunari assassination plot! Can't be all bad, can he? I'm sure that whole "apocalypse" non-sense is just a rumor.

 

I think it'd be interesting. It'd make him more formidable as a villain, more complex and gray as a character, and it fits with the general theme of his plans - that the modern world sucks and needs to be destroyed. And how does he go about doing that? By exploiting all it's broken parts. The elves, the apostates, the slaves, Solas isn't lying to them at all. He's simply standing up for them, and in return they pledge themselves to his goals - whatever they may be.

 

*Shrug* Sounds a lot more fascinating to me than "Solas is lying to all his followers, let's pick at that obvious thread and pull his whole plan apart."

[Elessara]

Actually why not just make the inquisitor a companion? We're not restricted to one protagonist, we always have a team. And of course you "control" companions.

The dual protagonist conflict really isn't necessary at all.

 

Controlling companions isn't the same thing as playing as that character and having that character make decisions.  I guess the Inquisitor could speak up a lot or "intervene" in conversations?  But at that point, might as well be playing as the Inquisitor anyway.

[midnight tea]

Controlling companions isn't the same thing as playing as that character and having that character make decisions.  I guess the Inquisitor could speak up a lot or "intervene" in conversations?  But at that point, might as well be playing as the Inquisitor anyway.

 

I wouldn't mind if Inquisitor was a companion that we'd be allowed to take control over. Then a new PC could be pushed to a companion spot.

 

... I have no idea what kind of clever writing or game design Bioware would have to concoct to actually pull this off, but it's an interesting option, at least theoretically.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Who says he would have to manipulate or lie in order to gain their allegiance? A lot of the elven people are desperate, It's not so difficult to imagine them willingly giving their lives to bring back a world where their people are no longer subjugated or oppressed.  

Well, there is the whole "they'll never see it since they'll be killed when it happens just like everyone else" thing. Solas would probably keep that part secret thus lie to the modern elves to manipulate them into helping him. 

[Elessara]

I wouldn't mind if Inquisitor was a companion that we'd be allowed to take control over. Then a new PC could be pushed to a companion spot.

 

... I have no idea what kind of clever writing or game design Bioware would have to concoct to actually pull this off, but it's an interesting option, at least theoretically.

 

Then why even have a new PC at that point?  Have however many voice actors (4 for the Inquisitor plus I'm sure they'd go with different VAs for the new protagonist) doing the lines depending on which person you happen to be controlling?  We're back to the dual protagonist, really.  And then you'd have NPCs possibly reacting to each person differently so you would have even more complexity there.  From a cost standpoint alone it seems impractical.  

[Elessara]

Well, there is the whole "they'll never see it since they'll be killed when it happens just like everyone else" thing. Solas would probably keep that part secret thus lie to the modern elves to manipulate them into helping him. 

 

Why would he keep it secret?  The elves have been historically oppressed.  If Solas tells them their sacrifice (i.e. their deaths) would help him bring about a better world for all elves, wouldn't they go for it?  I mean, no they wouldn't be around to see it but that's the sacrifice part.  The good of the many over the good of the few, right?  

[midnight tea]

Then why even have a new PC at that point?  Have however many voice actors (4 for the Inquisitor plus I'm sure they'd go with different VAs for the new protagonist) doing the lines depending on which person you happen to be controlling?  

 

To provide a new perspective? Conflict? A possibility to betray one of PCs? All of them interesting points.

 

 

We're back to the dual protagonist, really.  And then you'd have NPCs possibly reacting to each person differently so you would have even more complexity there.  From a cost standpoint alone it seems impractical.  

 

"Back to dual protagonist"? Um, but that's the point. At this moment I'm simply wondering how they could implement that. I mean, either way, whether Inky would be an NPC or a PC they'd have to have other characters react to them differently and likely bring all past 4 VAs to voice them all over again...

[Addictress]

Then why even have a new PC at that point? Have however many voice actors (4 for the Inquisitor plus I'm sure they'd go with different VAs for the new protagonist) doing the lines depending on which person you happen to be controlling? We're back to the dual protagonist, really. And then you'd have NPCs possibly reacting to each person differently so you would have even more complexity there. From a cost standpoint alone it seems impractical.

Because Bioware is being annoying and definitely 100% wants a new PC, and I sincerely doubt they have the balls to make a true dual protagonist a la CD Projekt Red. Sorry to be harsh. That said, they seem to be more flexible with companions.

[Elessara]

To provide a new perspective? Conflict? A possibility to betray one of PCs? All of them interesting points.

 

 

"Back to dual protagonist"? Um, but that's the point. At this moment I'm simply wondering how they could implement that. I mean, either way, whether Inky would be an NPC or a PC they'd have to have other characters react to them differently and likely bring all past 4 VAs to voice them all over again...

 

Addictress's idea was to simply make the Inquisitor a companion and you could "control" them by running around as Inquisitor-companion.  That's cosmetic and has no impact on the story.  That's how this particular conversation got started.  My point was that simply running around as Inquisitor-companion is meaningless if the Inquisitor doesn't have meaningful dialogue/actions at which point you might as well just have the Inquisitor as the protagonist.

[Addictress]

If I had it my way, DA4 would be released on a VR platform and I'd continue as Lavellan and have a VR sex scene with Fen'Harel but I sadly have little faith in this dream coming true.

[Addictress]

Lol total creep (me)

[Elessara]

Lol total creep (me)

 

I was thinking, "Huh, I'd actually find that a little creepy"  lol  =x

 

On a more serious note, I'm not sure how well a game like Dragon Age would lend itself to VR.  If you're going for a first person perspective (which is what VR seems to be about) then you'd lose the overhead view where you can see enemies.  Despite the limitation of companion tactics and the awkwardness of moving around the map in tactical mode, I prefer being able to see that way.  Although I could see VR working fairly well for a Bethesda game where I usually run around in first person anyway.

 

Edit to add:  I'm not sure current VR technology is advanced enough for that anyway.

[midnight tea]

Addictress's idea was to simply make the Inquisitor a companion and you could "control" them by running around as Inquisitor-companion.  That's cosmetic and has no impact on the story.  That's how this particular conversation got started.  My point was that simply running around as Inquisitor-companion is meaningless if the Inquisitor doesn't have meaningful dialogue/actions at which point you might as well just have the Inquisitor as the protagonist.

 

The way I see it there's no guarantee that Inky would have any more meaningful dialogue/interactions as a protagonist. Whether they end up as an NPC/2nd protagonist or a protagonist, Bioware writers have a tough nut to crack here. Of course, I'm sure that they've been thinking/working on it ever since since they've decided to split the Inquisition plot arc in half and retain Inquisitor in some capacity and they appear to be pretty confident so far that they can pull this off, so whatever they have in store for us will likely be interesting, even if just from implementation perspective.

 

Also - the way I see it, having Inky as a companion (be it one that becomes controllable or not) means a lot of meaningful banter and interactions. On both sides. I see quite a lot of people being really interested in playing a native of Tevinter.... having Inky as a companion would mean that Inky could be audience's surrogate in terms of learning about Tevinter (it'd be bizarre if a native of Tevinter wouldn't know much about it...) On the other hand, Inky could also mentor a young protagonist, inform them about what they've found out, talk about Solas or tell them about the past and deeds as Inquisitor (great for newcomers to the series). Not at all cosmetic thing IMO.

 

 

I was actually thinking, "Huh, I'd actually find that a little creepy"  lol  =x

 

On a more serious note, I'm not sure how well a game like Dragon Age would lend itself to VR.  If you're going for a first person perspective (which is what VR seems to be about) then you'd lose the overhead view where you can see enemies.  Despite the limitation of companion tactics and the awkwardness of moving around the map in tactical mode, I prefer being able to see that way.  Although I could see VR working fairly well for a Bethesda game where I usually run around in first person anyway.

 

Edit to add:  I'm not sure current VR technology is advanced enough for that anyway.

 

... I don't think the VR craze will pick up anytime soon - I mean, they're trying to push it, but aside form it being woefully expensive, it would require a monster of a computer and additional gear in order for players to immerse themselves... Not to mention that a game would have to be designed specifically for VR. I don't think it'd be as simple as giving a first person view... which I never liked anyway.  Aside from not seeing enough, I don't really like being that close to either action or a character per se. I prefer a little distance from myself and fiction, and I don't see how most game formats could lend themselves gracefully to VR experience. That doesn't mean that new game formats wouldn't evolve, but they'd need time.