Aller au contenu

Photo

Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


153429 réponses à ce sujet

#149826
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

Am I the only one who notice that the structure of Dalish society is very much reminiscent of the oppressive Ancient Elvhenan society ?

 

In Ancient Elvhenan, your place in society is determined by your magical abilities and magical prowess. In many ways, it is very similar to Tevinter Imperium.

 

We see this in Dalish Elves where only the mages are allowed to rule the Dalish clans and non-mages are relegated to other jobs. The fact that they shuffle mages amongst the Dalish to give mages to clans that have very little or no mages show that the Dalish, like their ancient counterparts, place a premium on mages over non-mages.

 

Does Solas view mages and non-mages differently ? I mean I don't think so, I have not seen any evidence of this, but he doesn't right. Even Flemythal doesn't seem to care about placing a premium on mages.

 

I don't know about Solas treating non-mages differently - there are no additional approval points for being a mage Inquisitor, nor Solas makes any comments that elevates mages above others... 

 

...However, when he slips up after Halamshiral, he reveals that he associates himself more with mages than with modern elves.

 

And why wouldn't he? They're the ones whose conscious connection to the Fade has not been severed, while most people's were. And Solas main mission appears to be to restore that connection to people, even if it means dramatic changes in the world. 

 

So you could say that Solas doesn't elevates mages, and certainly not on individual level, but at the same time it's all about mages and magic and that connection with the Fade that Solas thinks is very important for people to have...



#149827
Uirebhiril

Uirebhiril
  • Members
  • 2 530 messages

We see this in Dalish Elves where only the mages are allowed to rule the Dalish clans and non-mages are relegated to other jobs. The fact that they shuffle mages amongst the Dalish to give mages to clans that have very little or no mages show that the Dalish, like their ancient counterparts, place a premium on mages over non-mages.

 

That actually makes no sense since Solas said all elves had magic as part of their natural being. I suppose some could have been stronger magic casty persons, but that matters only marginally in a society where anyone can set your hair on fire.



#149828
Bayonet Hipshot

Bayonet Hipshot
  • Members
  • 6 768 messages

That actually makes no sense since Solas said all elves had magic as part of their natural being. I suppose some could have been stronger magic casty persons, but that matters only marginally in a society where anyone can set your hair on fire.

 

Yes, I should have phrased it differently. In a completely magical society, it would be natural that a class system is formed based on magical capability and magical proficiency.

 

Think of the Altmer in Elder Scrolls. Their society is structured in such a way that the mages are at the top, followed by traders. We can reasonably assume that in Ancient Elvhenan, the Elvhen society were structured based on magical prowess followed by wealth.



#149829
Ghost Gal

Ghost Gal
  • Members
  • 1 031 messages

But... being afraid of Templars has little to do with embracing magic  :huh:

 

I think there might have been a misunderstanding.

 

I thought you were saying the Dalish kick extra mages out of their clan because they (the Dalish) are afraid of mages.

 

That goes against all established lore.

 

We do know that the Dalish are not single people. We know Minaeve and Dalish from Bull's Chargers were chased away. We know that Lavellan and Sabrae exchange their mages in Arlathven and that basically each clan is different to a point that it's becoming hard to call the Dalish as one people. It's been established in the lore that they all have different practices.
 
Heck, I laughed out loud when I've read some time ago on wiki that "the intense quarreling that occurs in these conferences [Arlathven] leads many to suspect the Dalish prefer their tribal isolation due to irreconcilable differences." I mean, I wouldn't be surprised that this is exactly what happens  :lol:
 
I wouldn't particularly mind this "3 Mage Max" rule if they presented it as something that only some Dalish Clans do.
 
Instead, DAI presents it like all Dalish, as a collective culture, do this. All Dalish Clans have a strict three mage maximum, and while some are nicer about it than others (some leave their kids out to die, while others hold onto them as long as they can until they can find another Clan with less than three mages to pawn them off to), it's still universal. When Minaeve and Vivienne bring it up to Lavellan, there's no choice for you to say, "There's a three mage rule? I've never heard of this," or "Some Clans do that, not ours."
 
NO, you always have to agree that that is something the Dalish do; that this is the rule for your Clan too. You can only try to soften the blow by saying, "My Clan would never do that [leave an extra mage child to die], we'd try to find another Clan that needs an extra mage," but you can't deny that the extra mage child couldn't stay with your clan if you already have three. I think Minaeve, but I know Vivienne even poses the question, "And what would happen if you couldn't find an extra clan to take in the extra mage child?" and Lavellan can't give a good answer.
 
If it was presented as something that only some clans did, I could live with it. But its' not, it's presented as a "Yes, All Dalish" thing.
 
And this goes against lore from previous games. DAO reveals that while only mages can be a Keeper and Keeper's First and Second, it doesn't mention any upper limit of mages. Lanaya mentioned how she had to compete for several mages to get her title, and they took in the apostate Ainarin even though they already had plenty of mages. In DA2, Merrill mentioned how all clans need at least two mages, preferably three, to become Keeper and Keeper's First, and Clan Sabrae happened to have a shortage of mages while her own Clan had a surplus, so they pulled her out due to the shortage, not the surplus. She even laments that fewer Dalish children are being born mages, and she considers it sad because she feels it's a sign of their dying heritage. In DAI, suddenly the Dalish are popping out mage babies right and left and all of them have always had this "three mage maximum" upper limit, and they all try to dump spare mage children, and I'm thinking... something that would get me a warning point for sharing.
 
I just don't buy it.
 

Am I the only one who notice that the structure of Dalish society is very much reminiscent of the oppressive Ancient Elvhenan society ?

 

In Ancient Elvhenan, your place in society is determined by your magical abilities and magical prowess. In many ways, it is very similar to Tevinter Imperium.

 

We see this in Dalish Elves where only the mages are allowed to rule the Dalish clans and non-mages are relegated to other jobs. The fact that they shuffle mages amongst the Dalish to give mages to clans that have very little or no mages show that the Dalish, like their ancient counterparts, place a premium on mages over non-mages.

 

Does Solas view mages and non-mages differently ? I mean I don't think so, I have not seen any evidence of this, but he doesn't right. Even Flemythal doesn't seem to care about placing a premium on mages.

 

To be honest, I think that's a vast oversimplification.

 

That's like saying smaller war clans like the Avvar and Chasind are just as oppressive as "civilized" medieval nations just because the strongest warlords are the leaders, just like how the royals, nobles, and knights are war leaders with their own private armies to oppress the "little people" in sedentary nations like Ferelden and Orlais.

 

I'm serious. Medieval society was very loosely divided into three sections: those who fight (nobles, knights, and soldiers), those who pray (the clergy), and those those who work (peasants, serfs, laborers). The "ideal" kings and nobles in medieval society were accomplished warlords, or descended from accomplished warlords. They got their wealth from their land, made "peasants" work the land and give them the lion's share of resources to hoard for themselves, and they won that land ownership other oppressive warlords they defeated in battle, and/or inherited from their warlord parents/ancestors and protected by fighting off other warlords and their armies trying to kill them to take their land too.

 

And they ruled with iron, killing and pushing down those who didn't want to work under them. Their subjects had to do all the scut work of making society run (growing food, making clothes, etc) while the war lords got to feast in their castles, filled with fine silks and goods that others designed and/or brought them, with enough stores of grain and ale and meat to last long winters while the peasants and crafsmen who grew the food and made the goods they used barely got enough to provide their basic needs.

 

Everyone gets on mages for being supposed tyrants because of the "might makes right" dynamic of magic > non-mages, but the non-mage systems are just as strongly rooted in "might makes right." Big powerful warriors rule the smaller war tribes just as big powerful warrior kings and princes and nobles with private armies of knights and soldiers and guards ruled kingdoms. Big warriors from small war clans can cut off your head for back-talking just as surely as kings and nobles can either personally or send their paid knights and soldiers and guards (who were ideally loyal to them) to cut off your head for back-talking too.

 

As for Solas, in ancient Elvhenan all elves had magic, not just the Evanruis. It was just that, like current non-magic kingdoms, "might makes right." The strongest mages ruled the weaker mages just like how the strongest warriors rule the weaker peasants. 


  • Exile Isan, Elista, Uirebhiril et 2 autres aiment ceci

#149830
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

That actually makes no sense since Solas said all elves had magic as part of their natural being. I suppose some could have been stronger magic casty persons, but that matters only marginally in a society where anyone can set your hair on fire.

 

I assume that there must have been something special about either magic or magic they had access to, otherwise Trespasser wouldn't be so bent on pounding into our heads that Evanuris were basically "immortal mage kings" who ruled over others because they were indeed powerful in ways others weren't. I suspect most elves weren't shooting blue magic...


  • Bayonet Hipshot aime ceci

#149831
Uirebhiril

Uirebhiril
  • Members
  • 2 530 messages

I assume that there must have been something special about either magic or magic they had access to, otherwise Trespasser wouldn't be so bent on pounding into our heads that Evanuris were basically "immortal mage kings" who ruled over others because they were indeed powerful in ways others weren't. I suspect most elves weren't shooting blue magic...

 

Yep. But that would have been more the might makes right type of thing rather than us vs. them.



#149832
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

Yep. But that would have been more the might makes right type of thing rather than us vs. them.

 

... Not sure about that either? Kinda have to wonder what "the first of the people" really means. And is there some sort tentative connection between those 'first' and Firsts.



#149833
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 397 messages

I don't know about Solas treating non-mages differently - there are no additional approval points for being a mage Inquisitor, nor Solas makes any comments that elevates mages above others...

...However, when he slips up after Halamshiral, he reveals that he associates himself more with mages than with modern elves.

And why wouldn't he? They're the ones whose conscious connection to the Fade has not been severed, while most people's were. And Solas main mission appears to be to restore that connection to people, even if it means dramatic changes in the world.

So you could say that Solas doesn't elevates mages, and certainly not on individual level, but at the same time it's all about mages and magic and that connection with the Fade that Solas thinks is very important for people to have...


Solas did say that waking up in this age where most people have lost their connection to the Fade was like walking through a world of tranquil.

And then this prompts the Inquisitor to ask: "We aren't even people to you?"
  • Barnzi88 aime ceci

#149834
Colonelkillabee

Colonelkillabee
  • Members
  • 8 467 messages

Closest thing to an elven appreciation thread, and I need to share this sexiness somewhere, so:

 

NSFW

Spoiler

 

http://ynorka.tumblr...link-with-fewer

 

mMMMmmmm... :wub: :wub: Elven chicks, gotta love em. Too hot, too exotic.


  • CapricornSun, NightSymphony, Flemmy et 5 autres aiment ceci

#149835
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 397 messages

Closest thing to an elven appreciation thread, and I need to share this sexiness somewhere, so:
 
NSFW

Spoiler

 
http://ynorka.tumblr...link-with-fewer
 
mMMMmmmm... :wub: :wub: Elven chicks, gotta love em. Too hot, too exotic.


I wanna destroy her empire. I would enslave her elvhen so hard even her ancestors would feel it.
  • Bayonet Hipshot aime ceci

#149836
Bayonet Hipshot

Bayonet Hipshot
  • Members
  • 6 768 messages

Out of curiosity, do you think that Merrill would side with Solas ? Or would she oppose him ?



#149837
CapricornSun

CapricornSun
  • Members
  • 3 724 messages

Art post. :wizard:

 

Cute art of Solas kissing Lavellan's forehead. <3

 

Solas and Lavellan looking at each other.

 

A bunch of smug mages. (Dorian, Vivienne, and Solas)

 

Lovely profile practice of Cole, Sera, and Solas.


  • Julilla, NightSymphony, lynroy et 4 autres aiment ceci

#149838
Addictress

Addictress
  • Members
  • 3 184 messages
I was thinking about "Young and Beautiful" by Lana del Rey

And how my free trial of Adobe Premiere Pro expired.

But I really want to make a Solavellan fan video to that song.

It would be so cheesy. But maybe if I had mastery of montages and infused scenes of violence and abstract and impersonal scenery then I could strike a balance such that....such that it is not cheesy.


Sigh. I will play it in my mind hhnnnng

#149839
AlleluiaElizabeth

AlleluiaElizabeth
  • Members
  • 2 069 messages

When Minaeve and Vivienne bring it up to Lavellan, there's no choice for you to say, "There's a three mage rule? I've never heard of this," or "Some Clans do that, not ours."

Actually, you can tell Minaeve that that was not how it was handled in your clan. She plows right on with her next dialogue line anyway, giving the sense she's blowing you off. But its there. Its the "I'm sorry" option when she gets mad at you for saying its a shame she didn't grow up among the dalish. I think. If its not that specific item, its in that conversation tree.

 

Out of curiosity, do you think that Merrill would side with Solas ? Or would she oppose him ?

If she finds out his full plans and that it will mean the end of the world as it stands, drowning it in chaos, including her friends-who-are-basically-family? No way she'd side with that. But it might be possible for Solas to fool her for a time if he avoids those truths.


  • Bayonet Hipshot, coldwetn0se et midnight tea aiment ceci

#149840
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Am I the only one who notice that the structure of Dalish society is very much reminiscent of the oppressive Ancient Elvhenan society ?

 

In Ancient Elvhenan, your place in society is determined by your magical abilities and magical prowess. In many ways, it is very similar to Tevinter Imperium.

 

We see this in Dalish Elves where only the mages are allowed to rule the Dalish clans and non-mages are relegated to other jobs. The fact that they shuffle mages amongst the Dalish to give mages to clans that have very little or no mages show that the Dalish, like their ancient counterparts, place a premium on mages over non-mages.

 

Does Solas view mages and non-mages differently ? I mean I don't think so, I have not seen any evidence of this, but he doesn't right. Even Flemythal doesn't seem to care about placing a premium on mages.

 

Was there even such a thing as a non-mage in the old world, before the Veil?



#149841
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

And this goes against lore from previous games. DAO reveals that while only mages can be a Keeper and Keeper's First and Second, it doesn't mention any upper limit of mages. Lanaya mentioned how she had to compete for several mages to get her title, and they took in the apostate Ainarin even though they already had plenty of mages. In DA2, Merrill mentioned how all clans need at least two mages, preferably three, to become Keeper and Keeper's First, and Clan Sabrae happened to have a shortage of mages while her own Clan had a surplus, so they pulled her out due to the shortage, not the surplus. She even laments that fewer Dalish children are being born mages, and she considers it sad because she feels it's a sign of their dying heritage. In DAI, suddenly the Dalish are popping out mage babies right and left and all of them have always had this "three mage maximum" upper limit, and they all try to dump spare mage children, and I'm thinking... something that would get me a warning point for sharing.

 

You're wrong about Wynne's son - he's never part of Zathrian's clan. We actually don't know how the selection process for a First works - it could well be they have more than one mage at that point, and then the losers face exile. But I think practically you're right that (like the whole bit about Tal-Vasoth) that was something of an ass-pull for Bioware to try and justify the Circles. 


  • Bayonet Hipshot aime ceci

#149842
Elessara

Elessara
  • Members
  • 1 880 messages

You're wrong about Wynne's son - he's never part of Zathrian's clan. We actually don't know how the selection process for a First works - it could well be they have more than one mage at that point, and then the losers face exile. But I think practically you're right that (like the whole bit about Tal-Vasoth) that was something of an ass-pull for Bioware to try and justify the Circles. 

 

Wynne's son is Rhys not Aneirin and thus is human.  Aneirin was an elven mage from the Circle Tower that Wynne had been teaching who ran away and joined a Dalish clan - the Clan in the Brecilian forest (don't recall the clan name) the Warden has to speak to.  So yes, he becomes a member of Zathrian's clan.



#149843
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

Wynne's son is Rhys not Aneirin and thus is human.  Aneirin was an elven mage from the Circle Tower that Wynne had been teaching who ran away and joined a Dalish clan - the Clan in the Brecilian forest (don't recall the clan name) the Warden has to speak to.  So yes, he becomes a member of Zathrian's clan.

 

We have to keep in mind that Zathrian's clans is unique among the Dalish. Not that many have immortal keepers driven by vengeance. From Lanaya's tale it also seems that Zathrian treated hes as surrogate daughter due to what happened to her and maybe even pushed for her being First - and even then she tells us it was difficult, because she wasn't of "strong, pure blood",,,



#149844
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Wynne's son is Rhys not Aneirin and thus is human.  Aneirin was an elven mage from the Circle Tower that Wynne had been teaching who ran away and joined a Dalish clan - the Clan in the Brecilian forest (don't recall the clan name) the Warden has to speak to.  So yes, he becomes a member of Zathrian's clan.

 

No, he doesn't. You're right that I confused the apprentice with the son, but quite literally he is not a member of that clan. Apart from the Clan straight up telling you he's not a member, the timeline doesn't add up: Zathrian isn't in the Brecilian Forest at the time. 

 

Even if you're right, he's mage #3. The only way people can try to get to 4 mages is to count the gameplay contrivance of the Dalish massacre and the mage enemies put there, rather than the mages confirmed story-wise.

 

The real obstacle is the idea that Keepers train multiple apprentices as Firsts. 



#149845
Elessara

Elessara
  • Members
  • 1 880 messages

No, he doesn't. You're right that I confused the apprentice with the son, but quite literally he is not a member of that clan. Apart from the Clan straight up telling you he's not a member, the timeline doesn't add up: Zathrian isn't in the Brecilian Forest at the time. 

 

Even if you're right, he's mage #3. The only way people can try to get to 4 mages is to count the gameplay contrivance of the Dalish massacre and the mage enemies put there, rather than the mages confirmed story-wise.

 

The real obstacle is the idea that Keepers train multiple apprentices as Firsts. 

 

After going back, yes you're right.  He doesn't join the clan although he apparently stays relatively close.

 

I wasn't exactly making an argument about the 3 mage limit/rule though.  It's something that seems to have been retconned by BioWare.  It doesn't make sense that they lament the loss of magic and then go about booting out more than 3 mages.


  • In Exile aime ceci

#149846
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

After going back, yes you're right.  He doesn't join the clan although he apparently stays relatively close.

 

I wasn't exactly making an argument about the 3 mage limit/rule though.  It's something that seems to have been retconned by BioWare.  It doesn't make sense that they lament the loss of magic and then go about booting out more than 3 mages.

 

When do they all lament the loss of magic? Isn't it just Merril?



#149847
Elessara

Elessara
  • Members
  • 1 880 messages

When do they all lament the loss of magic? Isn't it just Merril?

 

You're going to make me go back and play through all the games again aren't you?  lol

 

Honestly I don't remember if it was just Merrill or not.  It was just kind of an impression I had but it *has* been awhile since I've played DAO and DA2.  It's completely possible I'm entirely mistaken and have no idea what I'm talking about.



#149848
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

After going back, yes you're right.  He doesn't join the clan although he apparently stays relatively close.

 

I wasn't exactly making an argument about the 3 mage limit/rule though.  It's something that seems to have been retconned by BioWare.  It doesn't make sense that they lament the loss of magic and then go about booting out more than 3 mages.

 

I'm actually shocked. I've.... there are so few people that ever admit they're wrong on the internet. :)  

 

The Dalish attitude toward mages is, to me, strange. I think they're very de-humanizing toward mages with the fact that they basically treat them like prized chattel - trading them around so that each Dalish group has their share. I find that to be very demeaning toward the inherent autonomy and personhood of a mage, even if notionally this is a privileged position. Throwing them away because they're inconvenient isn't exactly contrary to this attitude. 

 

I think what people struggle with re: the 3 mage rule is this idea that because the Dalish prize "mages", they have to value individual mages. But we see with Tevinter that this isn't true. 


  • Elessara, Bayonet Hipshot et midnight tea aiment ceci

#149849
Elessara

Elessara
  • Members
  • 1 880 messages

I'm actually shocked. I've.... there are so few people that ever admit they're wrong on the internet. :)

 

The Dalish attitude toward mages is, to me, strange. I think they're very de-humanizing toward mages with the fact that they basically treat them like prized chattel - trading them around so that each Dalish group has their share. I find that to be very demeaning toward the inherent autonomy and personhood of a mage, even if notionally this is a privileged position. Throwing them away because they're inconvenient isn't exactly contrary to this attitude. 

 

I think what people struggle with re: the 3 mage rule is this idea that because the Dalish prize "mages", they have to value individual mages. But we see with Tevinter that this isn't true. 

 

I don't *like* being wrong.  But I try to admit it when I am.  Don't like admitting it either  lol. ;)


  • In Exile et thaali aiment ceci

#149850
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

I don't *like* being wrong.  But I try to admit it when I am.  Don't like admitting it either  lol. ;)

 

I may or may not have deleted a farcically absurd defence the Wynne's son apprentice/son post.


  • Elessara aime ceci