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[FernRain]

True about the mortality: there's that phrase in Where the Willows Wail, 'Tel’enara bellana' (we lost eternity). Ana must be like the root word for eternity/years. Even malana means time.

 

When the password starts off 'Ar-melana dirthavaren', I think it's saying 'my mortality is a promise' - because the ar (I) is connected to melana, which would make it like 'my own time'.

 

Then Solas says while removing the vallaslin 'Ar lasa mala revas' which is really interesting because malana is time. So mala may be derived from malana so that's to say that freedom and time (mortality) were used similarly. It's like he was saying then 'I give you mortal freedom', and I wonder if that's what he said when removing the Elvhen vallaslin of his followers.

 

Another thing the sentinel says is 'Nuvenas mana helanin, dirth bellasa ma' which could mean 'want long past revolution/war, speak how many given to you' (assuming lasa = give/grant). That could imply, 'if you want the revolution, tell me if you're mortal'.

 

And to finish it, the Elven under the pillar in Skyhold that Solas 'assisted' to translate - Melanada him sa'miras fena'taldin (All time is transformed into the final/first death) which I think would be 'time led to our mortal deaths'.

 

And just to keep that going, I then wonder if he removed their vallaslin before or after he removed the veil? If they had to agree to his plan that was to come (freedom at the price of mortality) or if the veil had already been removed and he said you are free, for giving up your immortality.

[Nimlowyn]

And just to keep that going, I then wonder if he removed their vallaslin before or after he removed the veil? If they had to agree to his plan that was to come (freedom at the price of mortality) or if the veil had already been removed and he said you are free, for giving up your immortality.

My feeling is that it was before the Veil. My impression was that Vir Dirthara started to crumble right away. Maybe the mortality was the risk they took for angering the gods? Death in war, death in punishment? 

[Qun00]

I think the writers do us a disservice by avoiding telling us how the different races came to exist for the sake of keeping the Maker ambiguous.

Felassan says there was a time when elves were the only people around. Then one day, Tevinter mages showed up and enslaved the survivors of Elvhenan's fall. When? How?

[CapricornSun]

Art post.

 

Solas' face by kallielef. 

Spoiler

Source: http://kallielef.tum.../whatisyourface

 

 

Lovely art of the DA:I gang.

Spoiler

Source: http://key-of-zee.tu...-done-i-drew-so

 

 

Fade family portrait: Lavellan, Solas, and Cole. 

Spoiler

Source: http://sirladysketch...onight-3-have-a

 

 

DA:I comic with some Spongebob reference.

Spoiler

Source: http://yimmygee.tumb...should-fight-so

 

[lynroy]

I must be daft, I didn't realize there was trolling going on.

And that screenshot makes me want to rewatch that scene all over again forever.

If I wasn't on mobile I'd link more examples, but the last pages of these threads stick out:
http://forum.bioware...culture/page-35
http://forum.bioware...aracter/page-15
Caused ruckus in the Tevinter support thread and revived the Empress Celene thread with more of the same. :/ Use caution.

[FernRain]

My feeling is that it was before the Veil. My impression was that Vir Dirthara started to crumble right away. Maybe the mortality was the risk they took for angering the gods? Death in war, death in punishment? 

 

The Elves and the Crossroads were tied to the Fade so that when the barrier came up they couldn't survive the same, at least that's how I understand it. So Elves were potentially quite spirit like, or connected to them closely. I still don't know why that severing would cause them to age. I mean it seems there is an obvious reason but it hasn't been clarified. I'm thinking the Fade is a place of 'thinking things into existence', and if the veil removed that ability then perhaps they couldn't 'think' their immortality into being.

 

I think the writers do us a disservice by avoiding telling us how the different races came to exist for the sake of keeping the Maker ambiguous.

Felassan says there was a time when elves were the only people around. Then one day, Tevinter mages showed up and enslaved the survivors of Elvhenan's fall. When? How?

 

I haven't read TME but that's interesting. The humans came from the north didn't they? There's that codex in the library of Skyhold that talks about the pyramids (with the solium constellation) and humans living there before the Qunari.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

If I wasn't on mobile I'd link more examples, but the last pages of these threads stick out:http://forum.bioware...culture/page-35http://forum.bioware...aracter/page-15
Caused ruckus in the Tevinter support thread and revived the Empress Celene thread with more of the same. :/

I am an agent of chaos. So there.

[Nimlowyn]

If I wasn't on mobile I'd link more examples, but the last pages of these threads stick out:
http://forum.bioware...culture/page-35
http://forum.bioware...aracter/page-15
Caused ruckus in the Tevinter support thread and revived the Empress Celene thread with more of the same. :/

Thank you for the links. I reviewed them. I apologize, I've been away from the forums for a while.

 

Here's a picture of my Lavellan getting dumped by Solas:

 

[FernRain]

I found that thing I was talking about with the constellations at the Darvaarad:

 

In Trespasser when you go to the Davaraad, there's sea out west. That would mean it's either: the Boreic Ocean, Colean Sea, or the Volca Sea.

 

If it's the Boreic/Colean, it means we're in Qunari territory (Par Vollen or Seheron). If it's the Volca, we might be nearby the Tirashan that Leliana mentions having Elvhen activity (those that worship the Forgotten Ones). There's also a mention of the Volca in a codex in Trespasser.

 

It looks as though the Davaraad had similar treatment to Skyhold, being built upon by the new owners. There is a statue to Ghilan'nain and Solas' self portrait beneath the new build so it appears it was originally Elvhen territory.

 

The stars match too: if you look NW in the Hissing Wastes they seem to be in the same constellation patterns.

 

Map for reference:

Spoiler

[Solas]

I've decided that what I want the red floating fiery wolf head tower logo to be is the working progress cover of a book detailing Solas' rebellion and war against the Evanuris. Yeaaah.

The next game is going to deal at least in part with the consequences of his current activities that's a given lol, so it's not exciting if the logo is connected to DA4. The Solas thing is nextgame stuff regardless.

[Addictress]

I really wonder where Fen'Harel's sanctuary (the place we travel through in Trespasser) along with all those beautiful ruins where we fight the Saarebaas were in Thedas. Or perhaps they're on another continent entirely.

[Elessara]

And just to keep that going, I then wonder if he removed their vallaslin before or after he removed the veil? If they had to agree to his plan that was to come (freedom at the price of mortality) or if the veil had already been removed and he said you are free, for giving up your immortality.

 

That assumes Solas was aware of the consequences of putting up the Veil.  Did he know how it would affect the elves before he did it?  i'm not sure he did.

[Elessara]

I think the writers do us a disservice by avoiding telling us how the different races came to exist for the sake of keeping the Maker ambiguous.

Felassan says there was a time when elves were the only people around. Then one day, Tevinter mages showed up and enslaved the survivors of Elvhenan's fall. When? How?

 

I don't think it was quite that sudden.  At least, reading the in game histories never suggested that to me.  It sounds like humans showed up, were ignored for awhile, then elves and humans made contact, then after some time again the Tevinter Imperium formed.  According to the in game timeline (not sure how accurate it its but it's all we have to work with at the moment) there's roughly a two thousand year gap between "humans exploring Thedas" and "Tevinter Imperium being formed".  Somewhere between those two events is when the Veil was likely created.

[FernRain]

I have to wonder if the removal of the veil is what allowed the humans to move south. No idea why that would be the case. All I know is they revered horned things (a reason Qunari took them over) and had temples to Solium (which is assosiated with Elgar'nan who was likely able to become a dragon).

[Sah291]

That assumes Solas was aware of the consequences of putting up the Veil.  Did he know how it would affect the elves before he did it?  i'm not sure he did.

I don't know, but if FernRain is right about the password meaning, it sounds to me like they were pledging their mortality (as an oath). So I feel they either knew, or knew it was a possible consequence they were prepared to risk. Or perhaps, when they removed the vallaslin, it was effectively severing their connection with their gods, and they knew they were giving up the gods sacred knowledge or protection in exchange for their freedom.

I think what Solas didn't expect was for the freed elves to fail to fend for themselves after that and rebuild on their own, without the Evanuris to guide/teach or protect them. The elves lost their way.

[FernRain]

I don't know, but if FernRain is right about the password meaning, it sounds to me like they were pledging their mortality (as an oath). So I feel they either knew, or knew it was a possible consequence they were prepared to risk. Or perhaps, when they removed the vallaslin, it was effectively severing their connection with their gods, and they knew they were giving up the gods sacred knowledge or protection in exchange for their freedom.

I think what Solas didn't expect was for the freed elves to fail to fend for themselves after that and rebuild on their own, without the Evanuris to guide/teach or protect them. The elves lost their way.

 

Though my theory has a hole in it: how do we account for elves like Abelas and the sentinels, and all the other elves that kept their vallaslin? I don't think the blood writing itself was responsible for the Elves immortality, but like you say it was perhaps an oath. Somehow the evanuris or the fade was able to keep people alive indefinitely. Which actually makes me wonder if that's why there was a scramble to unlock the blight which is 'effective immortality' as Solas put it.

 

Edit: Though Solas does say that immortality was a result of magic (paraphrasing). The details of that however.. who knows.

[Sah291]

Though my theory has a hole in it: how do we account for elves like Abelas and the sentinels, and all the other elves that kept their vallaslin? I don't think the blood writing itself was responsible for the Elves immortality, but like you say it was perhaps an oath. Somehow the evanuris or the fade was able to keep people alive indefinitely. Which actually makes me wonder if that's why there was a scramble to unlock the blight which is 'effective immortality' as Solas put it.

 

Oh I don't mean the vallaslin itself granted them immorality, exactly. But that removing it was a knowing act of rebellion, severing ties with the Evanuris, and rejecting them -- and all of the benefits they had previously as servants. Perhaps they could no longer partake in something like the Well of Sorrows, because they were no longer pledged to a god, and they gradually forgot their knowledge over time.

 

Elves like Abelas stayed pledged to Mythal. It could be because Mythal was still active in the world. But whatever the reason, Abelas and the sentinels tried to maintain the Well and guard their knowledge as best they could. But even then, there is a codex suggesting younger elves were starting to forget Mythal and did not understand what she truly was in full. Maybe there are pockets of ancient elves like Abelas, but they are few and far between, and not the majority. When Solas encounters Abelas at the Temple, perhaps he saw in him a chance at restoration, precisely because he still remembered the old ways -- and could teach them.

 

I think this is just touching upon the costs and benefits of worshiping gods, or being bound to spirits. You gain something, and you lose something (of your individuality). This is what fiercely independent Morrigan probably fears about her mother and having her body taken. But to Mythal, it was supposed to be a gift.

[Illyria]

I wonder what DA4 will look like and what engine it will use!!

 

BW spent so much time learning how to use Frostbite I doubt they'd drop it now.

 

I have to wonder if the removal of the veil is what allowed the humans to move south. No idea why that would be the case. All I know is they revered horned things (a reason Qunari took them over) and had temples to Solium (which is assosiated with Elgar'nan who was likely able to become a dragon).

 

I wonder if the creation of the veil is affecting other places, or just Thedas.  Is the rest of the world like it was in Avatar Wan's day in Korra/The Last Airbender?

[FernRain]

I wonder if the creation of the veil is affecting other places, or just Thedas.

 

I wonder that too. And does it lessen the further away one gets from a titan considering they seem to reinforce reality. Which then makes me think the veil is tied to the titans since that seems to be their specialty.

[ladyiolanthe]

FernRain, your musings are interesting, and the talk of mortality twigged an additional tidbit for thought: one of the ancient mosaics, the one known as 'The Promise of Fen'Harel' gave us this:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a pang of hope. Images flash by: a man in wolfskin standing with a group of freed slaves, clasping one's arm in friendship. Words aren't so much heard as felt:

 

"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but is as mortal as any of you. He takes no divine mantle and asks that none be bestowed upon him. He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice."

 

The Inquisitor's comment afterwards was: "This is... Fen'Harel helping former slaves as a mortal. Not a god."

 

Also:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a sensation of bitter fury. Images flash by: elven mages enslaving tens of thousands, making arrogant proclamations of godhood. Words are not so much heard as felt:

 

"The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."

 

The Inquisitor's comment after this one was: "This claims the elven "gods" were just "Evanuris" - powerful but completely mortal mages. If that's true, Fen'Harel was teaching these freed slaves the truth about these "false gods"."

 

The whole sequence of mosaics is here: http://dragonage.wik...Ancient_Mosaics

 

Edited to add: Of course, Solas himself tells us that those murals and things told a pretty story meant to make him appear better than he was. However, I'm still not clear on whether he started that story or whether someone else did.  ^-^

[midnight tea]

And just to keep that going, I then wonder if he removed their vallaslin before or after he removed the veil? If they had to agree to his plan that was to come (freedom at the price of mortality) or if the veil had already been removed and he said you are free, for giving up your immortality.

 

Before. The whole sanctuary is from a time of his fight with the Evanuris - there are mosaics that speak of unraveling lies of Evanuris and whole armory hidden right under the mural where he removes the vallaslin.

[Sah291]

FernRain, your musings are interesting, and the talk of mortality twigged an additional tidbit for thought: one of the ancient mosaics, the one known as 'The Promise of Fen'Harel' gave us this:

A wash of powerful magic carries a pang of hope. Images flash by: a man in wolfskin standing with a group of freed slaves, clasping one's arm in friendship. Words aren't so much heard as felt:

"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but is as mortal as any of you. He takes no divine mantle and asks that none be bestowed upon him. He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice."

The Inquisitor's comment afterwards was: "This is... Fen'Harel helping former slaves as a mortal. Not a god."

Also:


A wash of powerful magic carries a sensation of bitter fury. Images flash by: elven mages enslaving tens of thousands, making arrogant proclamations of godhood. Words are not so much heard as felt:

"The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."

The Inquisitor's comment after this one was: "This claims the elven "gods" were just "Evanuris" - powerful but completely mortal mages. If that's true, Fen'Harel was teaching these freed slaves the truth about these "false gods"."


Edited to add: Of course, Solas himself tells us that those murals and things told a pretty story meant to make him appear better than he was. However, I'm still not clear on whether he started that story or whether someone else did. ^-^

I take what Solas says about himself with a grain of salt. We know he deeply regrets the creation of the Veil now, and the loss of elven immortality.

But I'm thinking he might have indeed lied to his followers...just as he may be doing now. Maybe to him it was a half truth or noble lie at the time. But if he was convincing elves to reject or give up their immortality when he himself had it, in order to attack the Evanuris, I can see that weighing heavily.

They might not have been real gods, or gods worth following, but they really weren't mortal anymore, and we know they couldn't die so easily. But that's complicated to explain, so he likely spread this more simple propaganda that everything about them was a lie, telling people they weren't gods at all... When what he probably meant was, just because they are gods, they have no right to lord it over others. Real gods would be more humble and compassionate to their followers, etc, not feeling the need to "prove" their powers constantly.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

She has to deal that she's with "human" Inquisition long before she can remove the vallaslin. Don't forget that she has to prove her intentions to Hawen, be it to gain clan's trust or recruit a single clan member. Even when we chat with Loranil he's like "the Dalish are talking a lot about you!" and Lavellan's response is quite concerned, since she/he's skeptical about it being a good thing. What's more, when we chat with Josephine in Haven we can point out that elves may not be happy that one of them has become a figurehead for different religion and people.

 

While the Valasllin removal might be making them even more controversial, it's obvious that whether they remove their vallaslin or not, they'd never be able to just return to the Dalish - they have changed, and perception of them has changed, even more so after Trespasser.

Lavellan can at least look forward to a bit of an easier homecoming with their own clan. Assuming they survive, Clan Lavellan has now integrated itself into a Marcher city and they don't seem to be leaving anytime soon. Varric's even set up trade relations between them and Kirkwall as of Trespasser. They've got their own changes to worry about. Lavellan's disappeared vallaslin are just one more change to add to the pile, really.

[midnight tea]

 

FernRain, your musings are interesting, and the talk of mortality twigged an additional tidbit for thought: one of the ancient mosaics, the one known as 'The Promise of Fen'Harel' gave us this:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a pang of hope. Images flash by: a man in wolfskin standing with a group of freed slaves, clasping one's arm in friendship. Words aren't so much heard as felt:

 

"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but is as mortal as any of you. He takes no divine mantle and asks that none be bestowed upon him. He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice."

 

The Inquisitor's comment afterwards was: "This is... Fen'Harel helping former slaves as a mortal. Not a god."

 

Also:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a sensation of bitter fury. Images flash by: elven mages enslaving tens of thousands, making arrogant proclamations of godhood. Words are not so much heard as felt:

 

"The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."

 

The Inquisitor's comment after this one was: "This claims the elven "gods" were just "Evanuris" - powerful but completely mortal mages. If that's true, Fen'Harel was teaching these freed slaves the truth about these "false gods"."

 

The whole sequence of mosaics is here: http://dragonage.wik...Ancient_Mosaics

 

Edited to add: Of course, Solas himself tells us that those murals and things told a pretty story meant to make him appear better than he was. However, I'm still not clear on whether he started that story or whether someone else did.  ^-^

 

 

I think for ancient elves "mortal" may mean something else than to us/modern Thedosians. One of his mosaics does state that Evanuris as "naught but mortals powerful in magic".... and we do know that they were indeed immortal, in one way or another.

 

So it may simply be that ancient elves were sort of like... errr... immortals in Highlander or in Tolkien's books? They don't die or age, but if you kill their body good enough they will indeed pass away. The difference between them and Evanuris is that they probably are able to survive the detah of their bodies and whatever else is done to them, since Mythal has been killed, yet she still lives and - as Solas says - the first of his people don't die so easily.

[midnight tea]

I think the writers do us a disservice by avoiding telling us how the different races came to exist for the sake of keeping the Maker ambiguous.

Felassan says there was a time when elves were the only people around. Then one day, Tevinter mages showed up and enslaved the survivors of Elvhenan's fall. When? How?

 

... That's a bizarre assessment  Why make it about "keeping Maker ambiguous"? There could be multiple reasons why they haven't told us how races came to be YET (although we already have hints that at least elves seem to be closely related to spirits), most likely so we'd get some huge revelations/plot twists later.

 

I mean, they didn't tell us how Veil came to be in DAO or base DAI... only to do so in Trespasser. DA is generally like a puzzle - we get pieces of this puzzle with each new installment.