153429 réponses à ce sujet

[FernRain]

FernRain, your musings are interesting, and the talk of mortality twigged an additional tidbit for thought: one of the ancient mosaics, the one known as 'The Promise of Fen'Harel' gave us this:

Spoiler

A wash of powerful magic carries a pang of hope. Images flash by: a man in wolfskin standing with a group of freed slaves, clasping one's arm in friendship. Words aren't so much heard as felt:

 

"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but is as mortal as any of you. He takes no divine mantle and asks that none be bestowed upon him. He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice."

 

The Inquisitor's comment afterwards was: "This is... Fen'Harel helping former slaves as a mortal. Not a god."

 

Also:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a sensation of bitter fury. Images flash by: elven mages enslaving tens of thousands, making arrogant proclamations of godhood. Words are not so much heard as felt:

 

"The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."

 

The Inquisitor's comment after this one was: "This claims the elven "gods" were just "Evanuris" - powerful but completely mortal mages. If that's true, Fen'Harel was teaching these freed slaves the truth about these "false gods"."

 

The whole sequence of mosaics is here: http://dragonage.wik...Ancient_Mosaics

 

Edited to add: Of course, Solas himself tells us that those murals and things told a pretty story meant to make him appear better than he was. However, I'm still not clear on whether he started that story or whether someone else did.  ^-^

 

Hey nice catch! Provided the theory is true, that made me "huh". The bit about 'elven mages enslaving tens of thousands' - I'm guessing that's not talking about the evanuris since it doesn't just say it (though they may be doing their work). Though it does go on to say 'the gods, our evanuris'.
 

I think for ancient elves "mortal" may mean something else than to us/modern Thedosians. One of his mosaics does state that Evanuris as "naught but mortals powerful in magic".... and we do know that they were indeed immortal, in one way or another.

 

So it may simply be that ancient elves were sort of like... errr... immortals in Highlander or in Tolkien's books? They don't die or age, but if you kill their body good enough they will indeed pass away. The difference between them and Evanuris is that they probably are able to survive the detah of their bodies and whatever else is done to them, since Mythal has been killed, yet she still lives and - as Solas says - the first of his people don't die so easily.

 

I see what you're saying. It's a bit odd to use the word mortal though, if they can die and reappear as a wisp or use a horcrux. That would be 'effective immortality' which I think they may have chased the blight or whatever it was before it was corrupted (but then Solas didn't anticipate Corypheus doing that).

 

Maybe, maybe.. when he brought down the veil, he tricked the Evanuris and Forgotten Ones into thinking they were going to age and die so they were encouraged to enter uthenera? But eh, that can't be right because they likely would've still had enormous power between them even with the veil gone, and they would've likely known he had done it.

[Delphine]

Small update:

 

Still don't see any DA4 news. Boo.

 

Currently 7 months pregnant with twin boys. Decided to name them Jaxon and Grayson. Couldn't get a dragon age name out of my husband no matter how hard I tried. Hope you guys are good. Miss you.

 

Ah, just when I was thinking of you somehow, cause you've been MIA on Twitter. Hope the pregnancy is going well, much love to you

[Solas]

I have to wonder if the removal of the veil is what allowed the humans to move south. No idea why that would be the case. All I know is they revered horned things (a reason Qunari took them over) and had temples to Solium (which is assosiated with Elgar'nan who was likely able to become a dragon).

I reckon many if not all of the Evanuris were able to take on dragon form  can't remember if i posted that theory in here before or not 

[midnight tea]

Hey nice catch! Provided the theory is true, that made me "huh". The bit about 'elven mages enslaving tens of thousands' - I'm guessing that's not talking about the evanuris since it doesn't just say it (though they may be doing their work). Though it does go on to say 'the gods, our evanuris'.
 

 

I see what you're saying. It's a bit odd to use the word mortal though, if they can die and reappear as a wisp or use a horcrux. That would be 'effective immortality' which I think they may have chased the blight or whatever it was before it was corrupted (but then Solas didn't anticipate Corypheus doing that).

 

Maybe, maybe.. when he brought down the veil, he tricked the Evanuris and Forgotten Ones into thinking they were going to age and die so they were encouraged to enter uthenera? But eh, that can't be right because they likely would've still had enormous power between them even with the veil gone, and they would've likely known he had done it.

 

Actually, Solas's description of Corypheus' body hopping as "effective immortality" tells me that it may be something different from what mortality/immortality is for elves/Solas - after all it's effectively the same as immortality, but may differ wildly from actual one, where nothing can really kill or end a being.

 

And I think this is an important distinction - and why he says that "the first of his people don't die so easily" or why the mosaics tell the released slaves that Evanuris are "mortals powerful in magic". They CAN be killed if enough strength of specific method is used, which means that they're simply mortals that are VERY hard to kill.

 

Then there's a question of what is "death" for people like Solas - he tells us (through Cole) that he'll suffer for his transgressions forever, only to tell Inky that he's on path of death. So death may mean many things - some beings die and leave little to nothing behind. Perhaps when a being is stronger the death can leave something behind - the Avvar believe that even if the body may die, exceptional people's soul can survive and basically reincarnate into another body. Heck, Flemeth use something that looks similar, even if requires rituals and specific conditions to happen. And Solas tells us that his spirit friend may or may not be reborn again, although with a caveat that it may be reborn as something different or with no memory of past life.... And then there's spirt!Cole whom Solas calls after his quest is done as someone who got rid if his self-imposed mortality.

 

It all seems.... complicated. But nevertheless points into death and mortality being not the same thing for ancient elves or beings as it is understood by Thedosians now.

 

There's also another curious thing from Solasan Temple - the description in a chamber we find Pride demon in:

 

"Pride in our accomplishments and in our 

hearts. That same pride became (a word 

meaning corrupted or altered) within him, 

he sought to claim (indecipherable), cast 

from favor and so he was bound.

 

Hidden from mortal eyes, death lies within."

 

... Why hiding from mortal eyes means death? And not like literal death, because it seems whoever was locked there sort of lingered there till he got corrupted into Pride demon. Something tells me that "death" in Thedas/for ancient elves may be correlated with everyone/everything forgetting about a being or depleting it of memories of self, until nothing remains. It would make sense - a lot of things about Thedas, and especially magic, revolves around memory.

 

This would also explain why enemies of Evanuris could be "the Forgotten Ones" - if we assume that it was a name given to Evanuris' political rivals, whom either they got rid of or attempted to get rid of.

[Shari'El]

I have nothing smart to add to the conversation but I do want to point out the difference between immortality (cannot be killed, from either age, disease or injury) and having eternal life (not aging but can still die from other stuff).

Ancient elves had eternal life, the Evanuris professed immortality but were actually just very powerful, mortal, beings.

We have no evidence anyone ever tested their mortality (like having a story about one of them being killed and them rising from the dead, you are not truly a god until someone rips out your heart and stomps on it and you're still alive afterwards!) so we could just assume it's just something they said about themselves to reinforce the image of gods.

 

Also @midnight tea, death of self is as bad as finite death of the body, I'm sure ancient elves were more afraid of the first one anyhow, so it's a good point

 

The part before that is

"Faintly carved into the stone is a figure 

bound in chains. Two other figures have 

turned their gaze from the central image."

 

To me it sounds like the person became prideful and sought to claim.. something.. perhaps a position? Perhaps he tried to undermine one of the priests of the Evanuris? We can't know, but we do know that whatever he did got him locked in that cell, without any companionship or any mortal contact. From the carving and the text it seems that the punishment was being.. ignored.

We don't know how long it took but eventually he was consumed by loneliness and went mad ("lonely madness") and lost himself, and in turn his true self (his spirit) turned to a Pride demon.

 

That reminds me of Solas' tombstone in Nightmares' lair, "Dying Alone", I now wonder if him dying alone will corrupt his spirit to a Pride demon :S

 

Things written in elven are always really cryptic though so I don't feel too certain with my interpretation.

[Qun00]

... That's a bizarre assessment Why make it about "keeping Maker ambiguous"? There could be multiple reasons why they haven't told us how races came to be YET (although we already have hints that at least elves seem to be closely related to spirits), most likely so we'd get some huge revelations/plot twists later.

I mean, they didn't tell us how Veil came to be in DAO or base DAI... only to do so in Trespasser. DA is generally like a puzzle - we get pieces of this puzzle with each new installment.

Something tells me I'm not very popular here.

[Sah291]

Well it seems like for a society that had such powerful magic and was immortal, or nearly immortal, the worst punishments ranged from banishment/exile, imprisonment, or dismemberment. And these seemed to all involve being forgotten by the People, or being banished from memory forever.

How do you punish a being too powerful to be simply killed? Being banished or imprisoned and forgotten about forever seems to have been considered the ultimate price. That's the fate Solas condemned the Evanuris to for their crimes. And it's also what was done to Corypheus.

Which makes me wonder what was up with Mythal's murder. How exactly did they manage to kill her? Or convince themselves they had? If she was dismembered, she might have other "fragments" left of her soul still out there.

[midnight tea]

Something tells me I'm not very popular here.

 

Err, you've made a comment I've found curious and I've offered a counterpoint.... you know, like I oftentimes do, no matter who that person is? Not really sure what else is there. That you happen to be a person that sometimes makes point I (or others) disagree with or I (or others?) find confusing is hardly a measurement of popularity.

[CapricornSun]

Art post.

 

Solas and Lavellan matryoshka dolls!

Spoiler

Source: http://bryd-one-brer...oshka-dolls#_=_

 

 

When your idiot boss gets knocked out. Solas and Lavellan.

Spoiler

Source: http://rhodaperditio...ed-out-whyd-you

 

 

"Your heart shall burn."

Spoiler

Source: http://ida-li.tumblr...eart-shall-burn

 

 

Solas carrying Lavellan on his back. 

Spoiler

Source: http://destinyaposta...-towel-you-know

 

 

Modern AU Solas (with a man bun) and Lavellan from the modern AU fic, Brew.

Spoiler

Source: http://mastcells.tum...ings-lovely-fic

 

 

Preview of lilium-snow's upcoming comic.   

Spoiler

Source: http://lilium-snow.t...-upcoming-comic

 

 

Solavellan inspired by The Prince of Egypt.

Spoiler

Source: http://pinacoladamat...gypt-movie-as-a

 

 

Solas in Keeper Robes. 

Spoiler

Source: http://cl0udb3rryart...ile-ago-i-asked

 

 

Desire demon!Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://nextcastle.tu...agon-age-fanart

 

 

Solas still has time for frilly cakes.

Spoiler

Source: http://fleeting-sani...those-blackwall

 

[Illyria]

I wonder that too. And does it lessen the further away one gets from a titan considering they seem to reinforce reality. Which then makes me think the veil is tied to the titans since that seems to be their specialty.

 

I really wish I'd played that DLC.  The only one I've played is Trespasser, but it sounds like the Titan stuff is amazing.

 

(I own all three, I just haven't played them)

 

I think for ancient elves "mortal" may mean something else than to us/modern Thedosians. One of his mosaics does state that Evanuris as "naught but mortals powerful in magic".... and we do know that they were indeed immortal, in one way or another.

 

So it may simply be that ancient elves were sort of like... errr... immortals in Highlander or in Tolkien's books? They don't die or age, but if you kill their body good enough they will indeed pass away. The difference between them and Evanuris is that they probably are able to survive the detah of their bodies and whatever else is done to them, since Mythal has been killed, yet she still lives and - as Solas says - the first of his people don't die so easily.

 

That immortality is my take on it, too.

 

Ah, just when I was thinking of you somehow, cause you've been MIA on Twitter. Hope the pregnancy is going well, much love to you

 

Delphine! *tackle hug*

 

Something tells me I'm not very popular here.

 

Everyone is welcome here.  People don't even need to like Solas to be welcome here.

[Elessara]

Though my theory has a hole in it: how do we account for elves like Abelas and the sentinels, and all the other elves that kept their vallaslin? I don't think the blood writing itself was responsible for the Elves immortality, but like you say it was perhaps an oath. Somehow the evanuris or the fade was able to keep people alive indefinitely. Which actually makes me wonder if that's why there was a scramble to unlock the blight which is 'effective immortality' as Solas put it.

 

Edit: Though Solas does say that immortality was a result of magic (paraphrasing). The details of that however.. who knows.

 

He doesn't say that immortality was a result of magic.  The Inquisitor can ask about that and Solas says no it (being immortal/ageless) was simply a part of being elven.  I think the direct connection to the Fade that elves possessed before the Veil is what allowed the immortality .. they drew sustenance or power directly from the Fade itself.  Perhaps that connection allowed the body to constantly renew/heal itself.  I don't think elves experienced diseases before the Veil either.

[Elessara]

 

FernRain, your musings are interesting, and the talk of mortality twigged an additional tidbit for thought: one of the ancient mosaics, the one known as 'The Promise of Fen'Harel' gave us this:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a pang of hope. Images flash by: a man in wolfskin standing with a group of freed slaves, clasping one's arm in friendship. Words aren't so much heard as felt:

 

"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but is as mortal as any of you. He takes no divine mantle and asks that none be bestowed upon him. He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice."

 

The Inquisitor's comment afterwards was: "This is... Fen'Harel helping former slaves as a mortal. Not a god."

 

Also:

 

A wash of powerful magic carries a sensation of bitter fury. Images flash by: elven mages enslaving tens of thousands, making arrogant proclamations of godhood. Words are not so much heard as felt:

 

"The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."

 

The Inquisitor's comment after this one was: "This claims the elven "gods" were just "Evanuris" - powerful but completely mortal mages. If that's true, Fen'Harel was teaching these freed slaves the truth about these "false gods"."

 

The whole sequence of mosaics is here: http://dragonage.wik...Ancient_Mosaics

 

Edited to add: Of course, Solas himself tells us that those murals and things told a pretty story meant to make him appear better than he was. However, I'm still not clear on whether he started that story or whether someone else did.  ^-^

 

 

The thing to remember is that "immortality" is different from "ageless".  The Evanuris, in calling themselves gods were claiming to be immortal, as in they could not die by any means.  The elves were ageless but could be killed (as many were in wars).  So, that mural is most likely saying that Fen'Harel is not immortal (i.e. unable to die no matter what) but they were still all ageless.

 

Edit to add:  This appears to have already been covered by other people.  That's what I get for not reading the rest of the thread before replying!

Modifié par Elessara, 17 mai 2016 - 09:04 .

[Elessara]

Well it seems like for a society that had such powerful magic and was immortal, or nearly immortal, the worst punishments ranged from banishment/exile, imprisonment, or dismemberment. And these seemed to all involve being forgotten by the People, or being banished from memory forever.

How do you punish a being too powerful to be simply killed? Being banished or imprisoned and forgotten about forever seems to have been considered the ultimate price. That's the fate Solas condemned the Evanuris to for their crimes. And it's also what was done to Corypheus.

Which makes me wonder what was up with Mythal's murder. How exactly did they manage to kill her? Or convince themselves they had? If she was dismembered, she might have other "fragments" left of her soul still out there.

 

We could assume that none of them had previously died so they didn't realise what could happen?  If we look at it like:  the Evanuris are aware they're not actually gods and only pretending and are fully aware their physical bodies can be killed.  It's entirely possible that their physical bodies never *have* died so they really have no idea what would happen should that occur.  Actually, if Mythal wanted to keep her continued existence hidden from the Evanuris (who may actually be aware of events passing wherever they're imprisoned) then hiding out in a human host is actually a good move.  As is pulling the strings behind the scenes.

 

Keep in mind, I'm working on a few assumptions here:  the Evanuris are aware of what's going on in Thedas; prisons are never a sure thing and they're going to get out; Mythal is planning for their eventual release.  These assumptions may very well be incorrect - I've been wrong about quite a few things in this thread.

[midnight tea]

Haha, her's some interesting convo from Weekes' twitter that I just found

 

 

@SamMaggs

Who are your favorite witches, Twitter?

 

@PatrickWeekes

Granny Weatherwax. No contest.

 

@BioMaryKirby 

I had you figured for a Nanny Ogg guy.

 

‏@PatrickWeekes

ExCUSE you, how would I not take "saddled with intellect and grump that makes people overlook her good intentions"?

 

@BioMaryKirby 

Gee, I don't know, guy who wrote "basically Nanny Ogg if she were an 8 foot tall dude with horns." It's a mystery.

 

@PatrickWeekes 

D-damn...

 

@PatrickWeekes

So we've got Solas for Granny and Bull for Nanny, which leaves Cole for Magrat. Or possibly Corporal Carrot.

 

Lol, so Solas is basically this?

 

[Solas]

 

Everyone is welcome here.  People don't even need to like Solas to be welcome here.

word

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Everyone is welcome here.  People don't even need to like Solas to be welcome here.

*thinks back to time I was yelled out of here for not liking Solas* Ha. 

[midnight tea]

*thinks back to time I was yelled out of here for not liking Solas* Ha. 

 

You were not "yelled for not liking Solas" and making it seem so is entirely dishonest. If anybody was "yelling" it was for specific statements, which is different from "yelling" just because you dislike a character. 

 

And I do say "yell", because I don't recall many people losing temper on this thread and do much other than disagreeing.

[Elessara]

*thinks back to time I was yelled out of here for not liking Solas* Ha. 

 

If someone is being trollish or just spewing hate, well ok yeah I think most here would have a problem with that.  However, I don't recall anyone being "yelled" out of the thread simply for not liking Solas.

 

We also discuss his flaws as much as we discuss what we like about him.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You were not "yelled for not liking Solas" and making it seem so is entirely dishonest. If anybody was "yelling" it was for specific statements, which is different from "yelling" just because you dislike a character. 

 

And I do say "yell", because I don't recall many people losing temper on this thread and do much other than disagreeing.

Really? Because I remember explicitly being told aggressively to go elsewhere because this place wasn't for negative views on Solas but for his fans, being a blanketfort for them. 

[midnight tea]

Really? Because I remember explicitly being told aggressively to go elsewhere because this place wasn't for negative views on Solas but for his fans, being a blanketfort for them. 

 

It would be prudent for you to prove it. You are making claims after all. That you "remember it" means little, since you do have a bit of a penchant to overreact. I recall quite a few times when people were perfectly civil with you, either when disagreeing with you or calling you out on some things, and you treated it as a grave insult or 'aggressive' attack.

[TheyCallMeBunny]

I'm guessing this might have been posted before, but it put a smile on my face so I am linking anyway. 

 

 

https://ifunny.co/fu...ery=inquisition

[Ghost Gal]

I just found this on Pinterest (can't find the source) and it made me laugh way harder than it should! XD

 

EDIT: Spoiler'd for da finger.

 

Spoiler

[Uirebhiril]

Eh. Like him or hate him, all opinions on Solas are welcome as long as everyone remains respectful. Trashing the character because you don't like him might make you feel better, but most I've seen people do in return is put forward actual discussion about what a person might not like. What else you going to do in a discussion topic? People who don't like Solas have had some very interesting insights. I sure haven't minded them being around, as long as we don't mean the "lol u luv elf Hitler" types.

 

But really, hanging out on a thread for a character you personally despise just to remind yourself and everyone else that you despise them isn't healthy. It's just a video game character, who was written to fulfill a narrative in a story. Probably best not to take it so personally. (Not directed to anyone, but said in general since I've seen people hate-following in different threads.)

[FernRain]

Hidden from mortal eyes, death lies within."

 

... Why hiding from mortal eyes means death? And not like literal death, because it seems whoever was locked there sort of lingered there till he got corrupted into Pride demon. Something tells me that "death" in Thedas/for ancient elves may be correlated with everyone/everything forgetting about a being or depleting it of memories of self, until nothing remains. It would make sense - a lot of things about Thedas, and especially magic, revolves around memory.

 

This would also explain why enemies of Evanuris could be "the Forgotten Ones" - if we assume that it was a name given to Evanuris' political rivals, whom either they got rid of or attempted to get rid of.

 

Aye that's interesting. It would make sense for the theme of 'forgetting' things, especially forgetting songs (like the Dwarves). In that codex about Andruil there's a bunch of statements with the word 'forgotten':

• She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss.
• Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face.
• She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn.
• But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void.

The Void seems to make people forget. What is the Void? Well the blight is likely there, since blight ate at Andruil's lands because she visited there. The Empty Ones (Nevarran cult) believed the blight came from the Void. In the story about Elgar'nan and the sun, the earth created the Void after the 'sun' (the Fade?) overwhelmed the earth and destroyed its creations; we know the blight affects lyrium so the Void could be an enormous chamber like the wellspring that has been 'forgotten' and where they sent the Forgotten Ones to exile.

 

There are potential hints about the Void in the flavor text of Abyssal Peach: Not so much filtered as dredged. Should be kept in a cold, dark place. Also locked. Forgotten as well, if one is wise. We know that coldness makes red lyrium more angry though (according to Cole). Lastly, Eleni Zinovia (the statue that speaks prophecies) says, "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The.. the shadow will consume all. A hunger, a cage, a yawning void". She's got red and black magic emanating from her while she speaks.. It could very well be a blighted prison for the Forgotten Ones. But then Solas says after Wisdom dies, "there are stirrings of energy in the void, someday something new may grow there". So what on Thedas.. I don't know .

 

Now, how Solas could supposedly walk between the Forgotten Ones and the Evanuris (assuming the Dalish tales have some truth to them)? Maybe because the People thought he had 'forgotten' a part of himself by not bowing to the Evanuris.

 

He doesn't say that immortality was a result of magic.  The Inquisitor can ask about that and Solas says no it (being immortal/ageless) was simply a part of being elven.  I think the direct connection to the Fade that elves possessed before the Veil is what allowed the immortality .. they drew sustenance or power directly from the Fade itself.  Perhaps that connection allowed the body to constantly renew/heal itself.  I don't think elves experienced diseases before the Veil either.

 

I couldn't remember what he said exactly to be honest, and I couldn't find it, so thank you for the correction .

[Qun00]

Everyone is welcome here. People don't even need to like Solas to be welcome here.

Well, that's good.

Some people got rather defensive when I brought up the matter of the vallaslin. Perhaps they thought I condemned the choice of removing it. I didn't.