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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#151701
LobselVith8

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I had a discussion with a friend about this in a PM recently.

 

Honestly? I don't think the devs have any intention of changing things significantly for the elves. There's going to be a huge struggle where the elves rise up, but the elves are going to be on the opposite side of and cannon fodder for the PC in the game (like the elven Qunari converts in Act 2 DA2, soon to be agents of Fen'Harel from Trespasser, etc), then then we'll either slap them down or marginally improve their conditions for a short time before "realistically" humans will take back all the rights the elves won (The Dales, the Elven Bann for the DAO City Elf ending slide, the Hinterlands for the DAO Dalish ending slide), and they'll just go back to being slaves in all but name in every worldstate by DA5.

 

The devs seem to keep hammering home how the elves have been enslaved and oppressed through their entire history. First they were enslaved by the Evanuris, then Tevinter, then a short shot at independence in the Dales followed by oppression and subjugation by Andrastian humans. Every attempted rebellion has either failed or not lasted in the long run, and each time the narration hammers home how it's their own fault they're oppressed ("The People bend their knees too quickly," and all that garbage), so I don't think the devs have any intention of changing things now.

 

I have to agree, regrettably. I don't get the impression that the developers have any intention of changing things for the elves in a positive manner. The Dalish were little more than caricatures in TME, and neither the Dalish nor the Andrastian elves were given anything in the way of perspective or content in Inquisition proper. Even the Jaws of Hakkon seemed to exist to take a shot at the elves of the Dales for not submitting to the genocidal Drakon.

 

They wouldn't have the elves' entire history be one endless stream of oppression and then say it's their fault for being oppressed every single time (either because they were too meek to fight back in the case of Tevinter, or they were too violent and fought back when they shouldn't have in the case of The Dales against Orlais) if they had any intention of having things finally improve for them.

 

That particular tone of the narrative is incredibly uncomfortable. I don't understand why they don't strive for a more balanced depiction of the elves.

 

Yeah. Too bad pretty much 100% of those with "political force" (nobles, knights, guards, Chantry priests, Templars, etc) are all humans who don't care about the plight of the elves; who dismiss them when they ask nicely for change, then crack down on them when they try to force change violently. 

 

And, of course, putting elves in political power is as easy as pulling teeth since humans literally form lynch mobs and race riots when an elf so much as buys a house in a nice neighborhood or is given a petty nobleman's title, and revolt when Leliana as Divine tries to return Shartan to the Chant of Light and allow elves (well, men and women of all genders and races) to join the Chantry; because giving an elf some power is the same as taking away power from a much more deserving human, and of course the elves should NEVER try to gain anything at the expense of any potential human.  :rolleyes: 

 

We've already seen that the deeds of the Night Elves were forgotten about after Ferelden became freed from Orlesian rule, and with the land of the Hinterlands being taken away from the Dalish (and now under Redcliffe control despite the promise of the Crown). Given the story arc with Solas, it's possible even the reforms with Briala will go the way of the rectonned Dalish Boon in order to move the story forward (and perhaps even Clan Lavellan at Wycome).

 

Yup. It was actually Martin Luther King Jr. who wrote, in a letter from Birmingham Jail in 1963, "We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." (Although I know he argued through non-violent means.)

 

Furthermore, he wrote, "Frankly I have never yet engaged in a direct action movement that was 'well timed,' according to the timetable of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word 'Wait!' It rings in the ear of every [segregated minority] with a piercing familiarity. This 'wait' has almost always meant 'never.' We must come to see with the distinguished jurist of yesterday that 'justice too long delayed is justice denied.' " 

 

The scenarios are completely different as well; entire populations of elves can be purged. Let's not forget that an orphanage of children were killed during the purge of Denerim's Alienage because the elves were upset that a noble took women out of there in broad daylight to be gang-raped. Or how the city of Halamshiral was burned to kill off thousands of elves. Or even how the Dalish can be hunted and killed.

 

But sure, yeah, let's talk about how the elves bring their continued oppression completely on themselves. How when they act too violently, bitterly, or insistently they turn humans off helping them, but then ignore how the city elves as a collective people have been cooperating with the Chantry's terms for over seven hundred years (basically, "You convert to Andrasteism and serve as scut labor living in walled off ghettos in our cities, and we'll ' show mercy' ") and are still second class citizens. After seven hundred years, humans as a whole still treat them like lesser beings, resist putting Shartan back into the Chant of Light, throw a fit at the thought of allowing elves to enter the Chantry or nobility--but don't worry. If the elves wait around long enough, I'm sure any century now humans will finally get around to improving conditions for them of their own accord.

 

Yeah, you don't solve acts of genocide and subjugation by writing a strongly worded letter to your oppressors.

 

When it comes to the elves, the unbalanced portrayal is the issue. You get more nuanced and rounded depictions of Andrastians and the members of the Chantry of Andraste, while you don't get the same with Andrastian elves or the Dalish. Briala's story is pretty much nonexistent, we get a fraction of a mention about the massacre of thousands in Halamshiral, the elves aren't given a point of view while a multitude of Andrastian humans are, and as a Dalish elf we're bombarded by an onslaught of negativity and denigration while we hear waves of people laud the Andrastian faith and the Chantry of Andraste.

 

For example: the Dalish get a few things wrong? The dialogue and narrative tone treats it as if they got everything wrong. The Andrastians get everything wrong? The dialogue and narrative treats it as if they could be right if you do a couple of mental gymnastics about it. It's really silly, and it's hard to take the story seriously when it does things like this.

 

Even Jaws of Hakkon didn't focus on Drakon wiping out different faiths (like the Daughters of Song); instead we had his ardent supporter, Ameridan, acting like Drakon was a perfect person and his only blame was directed at the elves of the Dales. No balance or nuance; this unbalanced vilification of the elves and whitewashing of Drakon is also echoed by the responses from Cassandra and Sera. Yet again we have the narrative ridiculing the elves of the Dales for not being subservient to Drakon and trying to shift all the blame to them for everything as a consequence (as if we didn't have to deal with this kind of lop-sided story-telling throughout the entirety of Inquisition).

 

Most likely, the future Dragon Age game won't be any different, and we'll have to deal with this same unbalanced storytelling unless they change course. Solas gathering elven forces and being positioned as an antagonist does not bode well for the elves.



#151702
CapricornSun

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Art post,

 

Solas booping Lavellan's nose.  ^_^

Spoiler

Source: http://curiousstrawb...nerd-wolf-solas

 

'Hello darkness, my old friend' for the 30 Expressions challenge starring Solas and Lavellan.

Spoiler

Source: https://right-in-the...-given-you-this

 

'Favorite song just came on' for the 30 Expressions challenge starring Solas. :)

Spoiler

Source: https://right-in-the...out-6-and-solas


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#151703
Gervaise

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Thought I'd just mention that on the previous page I wasn't referring to Abelas being unhappy about Lavellan having vallaslin but Solas.   Abelas doesn't care one way or another because they just aren't his People and he probably sees them as children playing with things they don't really understand.   Felassan is the same when he talks about how the early human mages found elven runes and copied them "by rote like children tracing letters".  One assumes that these "fools" as he calls them eventually got lucky and the runes actually did something.  There is a very strong suggestion now that the Tevinter Imperium grew in magic and power off the back of what they learned in elven ruins, plus from elven captives.   So the ironic thing is that the Magisters very likely did model themselves on the Evanuris and ultimately the empire built on slaves as well, so the elves simply ended up being freed from one set of masters, only to fall into the hands of another.

 

I've been picking up some useful stuff from the 2015 on-line Core Rulebook.    This confirms that what they learned from the first elven captives (long before the fall of the settlement in Arlathan Forest) was not blood magic but how to use lyrium to send their minds into the Fade and augment their powers with it.    Again, this indicates it was the knowledge of the elves that gave the Neromenians the edge over their neighbours and allowed their rise to power.      Then while traversing the Fade they must have come to the attention of the old gods who started talking to them and taught them blood magic.   So a combination of elven artefacts, elven runes and elven knowledge wrung out of captive elves, allowed the rise of the Imperium.  


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#151704
NightSymphony

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Fen'Harel says Good Morning

Spoiler


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#151705
Qun00

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I didn't really hear a "no" when Blackwall asked Solas about spirit love.

Is there romance between spirits? Maybe even between spirits and mages (not through possession)?

#151706
coldwetn0se

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Fen'Harel says Good Morning

Spoiler


Okay. I so want to be one of those people on that lake, right now!
*Insert appropriate pic of Envy, here*
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#151707
Addictress

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I don't know, I think people are defending elves because they're taking the parallel with real-world oppressed groups too far. My impression was that the first two games, we were supposed to feel sorry for the "poor, innocent elves" 100%, and it wasn't until Inquisition when the new perspective that perhaps the elves themselves aren't perfect came to light. It doesn't lay blame on them for trying to take back the Dales or revolt subsequently, but rather describes the complicated initial situations that got them there in the first place.
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#151708
NightSymphony

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Hello Nosey :D   I know!  I want to be there too. It looks so lovely and peaceful.

 

Oh, Addictress...I am loving your Solas/Illusive Man pic!


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#151709
Addictress

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I don't remember the narrative tone ever implying it was the elves' fault their revolts didn't work. If anything, the Dragon Age games always portray the elves' revolts as classic oppressed-righteously-uprising-against-oppressed every time. The only negative thing about the elves to date is their ignorance that their own people were just as elitist and hierarchical against their own kind in ancient Arlathan.
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#151710
Qun00

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I will never agree with putting the oppressed on a shiny pedestal. Nobody is above being held responsible for their own actions.

The elves aren't to blame for their situation in the alienages or the slavery in Tevinter and I've never seen anyone say otherwise in the games.

But the infighting that contributed to Elvhenan's fall? Red Crossing? Yep, they messed up big time.

I don't know, I think people are defending elves because they're taking the parallel with real-world oppressed groups too far. My impression was that the first two games, we were supposed to feel sorry for the "poor, innocent elves" 100%, and it wasn't until Inquisition when the new perspective that perhaps the elves themselves aren't perfect came to light. It doesn't lay blame on them for trying to take back the Dales or revolt subsequently, but rather describes the complicated initial situations that got them there in the first place.


Exactly. Portraying them as perfect people with a squeacky clean history isn't a requirement to sympathise with their plight.
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#151711
Addictress

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Ah right, Red Crossing - that too. Otherwise the Tevinter slavery was always bad, etc

#151712
Xilizhra

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I don't know, I think people are defending elves because they're taking the parallel with real-world oppressed groups too far. My impression was that the first two games, we were supposed to feel sorry for the "poor, innocent elves" 100%, and it wasn't until Inquisition when the new perspective that perhaps the elves themselves aren't perfect came to light. It doesn't lay blame on them for trying to take back the Dales or revolt subsequently, but rather describes the complicated initial situations that got them there in the first place.

Er, real-world oppressed groups were very rarely ever 100% innocent either. It doesn't make the issue significantly less one-sided when we see the current results. Elves have never been claimed to be perfect.


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#151713
Qun00

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Er, real-world oppressed groups were very rarely ever 100% innocent either. It doesn't make the issue significantly less one-sided when we see the current results. Elves have never been claimed to be perfect.


And yet people protest against the discovery that the elves aren't completely innocent.

#151714
Gervaise

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I don't protest against the discovery that elves aren't completely innocent; what I object to is that many people then say that because of it the elves brought it upon themselves and deserve to be oppressed.    They also simply accept the history as being the absolute truth and not possibly the propaganda of the victors.    Even everything that Solas says is taken at face value and never really questioned.    That is true in game as well.   "I suspect you have questions."   But I never get to ask the questions I really want to and even when I do, "Why does this world have to die?", I get an evasive answer.   

 

What is also annoying is that every time you try and win a better life for the elves, whether Dalish or City, you get knocked back down again by discovering it all came to nothing.   I was really hoping that Solas was going to turn out to be doing something positive that I could support after DAI, "the People need me", only to be brought down to earth with bump in Trespasser


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#151715
Qun00

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That is precisely the black and white view I'm criticising.

One can hold the elves responsible for their actions without actually absolving Tevinter and general human nobility of the suffering inflicted.

When a kid gets hurt after climbing a tree against his mother's advice, he receives both a scolding and first care aid.
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#151716
Xilizhra

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That is precisely the black and white view I'm criticising.

One can hold the elves responsible for their actions without actually absolving Tevinter and general human nobility of the suffering inflicted.

When a kid gets hurt after climbing a tree against his mother's advice, he receives both a scolding and first care aid.

And therein lies the problem: far too many people are advocating only the scolding.


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#151717
CapricornSun

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Art post.

 

Lineart version of Lavellan hugging Solas from behind. <3

Spoiler

Source: http://ryliesavage.t...neart-ready-for

 

Gorgeous tarot card of a glowing-eyed Solas. (Slightly NSFW because he's only wearing wolf fur covering him.) 

Spoiler

Source: http://bunabi.tumblr...6855697873/more


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#151718
Addictress

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Er, real-world oppressed groups were very rarely ever 100% innocent either. It doesn't make the issue significantly less one-sided when we see the current results. Elves have never been claimed to be perfect.


I mean that people are emotionally reluctant to accept the potential flaws of the elves because if they truly parallel real-world oppressed people, it is uncomfortable. But some posters previously were saying the games' narrative tone constantly portrayed elves in a negative light and even blamed them for their losing the Dales or their revolt in Halamshiral, which I simply did not detect in my experience in the games. The elves were purely sympathetic straight through until Inquisition when Inquisition mentioned Red Crossing and Evanuris. It's likely I missed some codices in the first two games that had additional negative things on the elves, though, I admit.
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#151719
Addictress

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Which is why, even though I thought Inquisition was an awful game technically speaking, I thought the development of elves beyond black and white awesome. I was thoroughly disappointed in the game but the trajectory of the elves from a black and white stereotype to a complex people was well-done in Trespasser (intertwined with our beautiful Solas)

#151720
DreamerM

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... If I can just voice my opinion on something very trivial...

When Solas asks, "I imagine you have questions," in my head I responded, "you mean besides wondering where that outfit came from." But moreso... where did those thighs come from? Solas the hobo apostate was slender all over, you know, like an elf. Solas in his Fen'harel get-up... maybe it's just the thigh-high boot-things doing no favors to his legs, but.. damn is he taking Spinning classes or lifting or something? Those are some mighty thighs he's suddenly sporting. What gives?


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#151721
Ellawynn

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And therein lies the problem: far too many people are advocating only the scolding.

 

Blame the people who advocate that, then. But that's not a fault with the narrative itself.

 

I mean that people are emotionally reluctant to accept the potential flaws of the elves because if they truly parallel real-world oppressed people, it is uncomfortable. But some posters previously were saying the games' narrative tone constantly portrayed elves in a negative light and even blamed them for their losing the Dales or their revolt in Halamshiral, which I simply did not detect in my experience in the games. The elves were purely sympathetic straight through until Inquisition when Inquisition mentioned Red Crossing and Evanuris. It's likely I missed some codices in the first two games that had additional negative things on the elves, though, I admit.

 

Same.At no point did I get the feeling like BioWare was saying the elves deserve the awful lot they have. If people are saying that, than that's on them, not the writers. 

 

As for the complaint that everything you can do to help the elves is undone - yeah, and so is nearly every other choice you're given. That's not unique, Choice-based games in general have an issue with railroading people into a very particular storyline, and ignoring or undoing any choice that might allow deviation. The fact that a lot of pro-elven choices get retconned is the same reason they erase the decisions of anyone who tried to kill Leliana, or free the Fereldan Circle.  Same reason why DA2 results in mage rebellion no matter what. Same reason why the choices with the Orlesian Throne or the new Divine are probably going to end up giving near-identical results.

 

"Your choices matter!" Is nothing but a pretty PR line.


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#151722
DreamerM

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"Your choices matter!" Is nothing but a pretty PR line.

 

I think that's actually fairly realistic. Even the most powerful person on the planet can't instigate widespread social change all by themselves. I'm getting a little tired of the "oppressed elves are oppressed" plot point drum beat over and over again, but I think the moral of that story is that it doesn't matter what point of history you find yourself in, life has always sucked for the little guy. When the little guy wasn't being enslaved and oppressed by the Tevinter and the Adrastians and the Orlesians and everyone else, they were being oppressed by the most powerful members of their own society. It never ends.

 

If you ask me, Solas is looking for a solution to the wrong problem. He wants to restore the world he knew, but people in that world were just as miserable as the ones in this one. They were just miserable in prettier surroundings.


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#151723
midnight tea

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Blame the people who advocate that, then. But that's not a fault with the narrative itself.

 

 

Same.At no point did I get the feeling like BioWare was saying the elves deserve the awful lot they have. If people are saying that, than that's on them, not the writers. 

 

As for the complaint that everything you can do to help the elves is undone - yeah, and so is nearly every other choice you're given. That's not unique, Choice-based games in general have an issue with railroading people into a very particular storyline, and ignoring or undoing any choice that might allow deviation. The fact that a lot of pro-elven choices get retconned is the same reason they erase the decisions of anyone who tried to kill Leliana, or free the Fereldan Circle.  Same reason why DA2 results in mage rebellion no matter what. Same reason why the choices with the Orlesian Throne or the new Divine are probably going to end up giving near-identical results.

 

"Your choices matter!" Is nothing but a pretty PR line.

 

Well, let's face it - if we want to to have a tale that actually goes somewhere and has a point to make and a consistent story to tell (and doesn't cost a zillion dollars and has to be developed for 3 decades or something) we can't really have a game where all our choices matter... nor the game has to honor them/portion of them, IMO, especially if they explore the themes of fate, inevitability, enormous odds, twists of fate and whatnot.

 

(also, apologies for not responding to your PM for so long, been in a weird head-space lately due to some IRL stuff and general lack of consistent sleeping patterns that didn't leave much room for forum activity, much less lengthy replies...)

 

Also, I too didn't get the whole "elves deserve the awful" feeling... 


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#151724
Elessara

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I think that's actually fairly realistic. Even the most powerful person on the planet can't instigate widespread social change all by themselves. I'm getting a little tired of the "oppressed elves are oppressed" plot point drum beat over and over again, but I think the moral of that story is that it doesn't matter what point of history you find yourself in, life has always sucked for the little guy. When the little guy wasn't being enslaved and oppressed by the Tevinter and the Adrastians and the Orlesians and everyone else, they were being oppressed by the most powerful members of their own society. It never ends.

 

If you ask me, Solas is looking for a solution to the wrong problem. He wants to restore the world he knew, but people in that world were just as miserable as the ones in this one. They were just miserable in prettier surroundings.

 

I don't even know that he's trying to restore the world he knew ... I think he's trying to restore the elves to what they had been.  Ageless, magical, connected to the Fade, etc.


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#151725
DreamerM

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I don't even know that he's trying to restore the world he knew ... I think he's trying to restore the elves to what they had been.  Ageless, magical, connected to the Fade, etc.

 

Yeah, but will that make them happier? The Elves who had all that still happily oppressed and enslaved their own people. That was what started this whole thing.

It's funny. After Wisdom dies, he talks about going to the place in the fade where it used to linger and is clearly in mourning. When it's pointed out that spirits don't really die and, given time, she could re-materialize in a new form, he says it won't be the same as it was, and it won't remember him.

He somehow hasn't noticed how this illustrates the great flaw of his plan. Even if it works and Elves are immortal and the Fade is everywhere again, the new world won't be the same as the one he remembers. It will just have some traits in common with it. His friend, as he knew it, isn't coming back.


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