Also, I too didn't get the whole "elves deserve the awful" feeling...
Not so much in the game, beyond what one expects from the NPCs living in the context of that world, but the elf hate is kind of startling around the forums sometimes. Like, if you believe they're just being sanctimonious prats, being one in turn really doesn't help your case, so lighten the eff up. (Said in general. I'm not calling you a prat, honest.)
Not so much in the game, beyond what one expects from the NPCs living in the context of that world, but the elf hate is kind of startling around the forums sometimes. Like, if you believe they're just being sanctimonious prats, being one in turn really doesn't help your case, so lighten the eff up. (Said in general. I'm not calling you a prat, honest.)
Well the elf-hate outside of the game is sort of a separate issue - sadly people being all 'this or that group deserve their fate!' is not just something that is limited to fantasy race in a fantasy story :/ Though DA4 sorta-kinda seeming like we're going in a direction of a conflict between elves or ancient elves vs. modern Thedas, there'd probably be more of those who'd prefer to look at the issue relatively simplistically and stand at one side, while demonizing another.
With that said... I don't think we're going to see much of 'elf uprising' or revolution or whatever. IMO the story isn't going in that direction. The world seems to be heading towards some maaaaajor change that will affect all people on variety of levels, not just elves, so there's no telling how the landscape of Thedas will look like after the dust settles.
I think that's actually fairly realistic. Even the most powerful person on the planet can't instigate widespread social change all by themselves. I'm getting a little tired of the "oppressed elves are oppressed" plot point drum beat over and over again, but I think the moral of that story is that it doesn't matter what point of history you find yourself in, life has always sucked for the little guy. When the little guy wasn't being enslaved and oppressed by the Tevinter and the Adrastians and the Orlesians and everyone else, they were being oppressed by the most powerful members of their own society. It never ends.
If you ask me, Solas is looking for a solution to the wrong problem. He wants to restore the world he knew, but people in that world were just as miserable as the ones in this one. They were just miserable in prettier surroundings.
I think it's realistic to a point. But I think that, for one, some people obviously prefer unrealistic. A lot of things in Dragon Age - in fiction as a whole, really - defy realism. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, after all if we held completely to realism, the story and gameplay would probably evaporate.
I also think, for two, some of these decisions should have lasted, or at the very least been undone realistically. I mean, the decision to give the Hinterlands to the elves just... disappears. I don't think it's ever even mentioned, much less given an explanation as to why it didn't work out. And the decision to kill Leliana? C'mon, lyrium ghosts? Not only is that stupidly unrealistic, it's an obvious retcon. One of the more jarring indications that Origins was written as a stand-alone, and Leliana was a one-shot character. So it's a little hard to argue that her coming back to life because of spooky ghost magic is more realistic than letting her stay dead/fade out of the story and bringing in someone new.
But, as Tea pointed out, you can't really expect a game dev to give unique routes and results for every choice they give you. I wish they'd preen down the choices a little, or atleast do a better job of railroading you instead of just ignoring your decisions, but it is what it is.
Yeah, but will that make them happier? The Elves who had all that still happily oppressed and enslaved their own people. That was what started this whole thing.
It's funny. After Wisdom dies, he talks about going to the place in the fade where it used to linger and is clearly in mourning. When it's pointed out that spirits don't really die and, given time, she could re-materialize in a new form, he says it won't be the same as it was, and it won't remember him.
He somehow hasn't noticed how this illustrates the great flaw of his plan. Even if it works and Elves are immortal and the Fade is everywhere again, the new world won't be the same as the one he remembers. It will just have some traits in common with it. His friend, as he knew it, isn't coming back.
But Solas acknowledges people were awful then. If his general cynicism is anything to go on, he's under no illusion that things like oppression and corruption will evaporate with the Veil. I actually think what you're pointing out (That people will be miserable either way) might be why Solas is doing what he's doing. He put up the Veil because he believed it would make people better. But people didn't get any better, and the world got a whole lot worse. So to him, he's thinking he might as well restore the world to what it was, if people are going to be awful either way - at least then they can be awful in a world with magic and spirits and immortality.
I mean, what about the old world do you think Solas misses, and why do you think that won't come back?
Yeah, but will that make them happier? The Elves who had all that still happily oppressed and enslaved their own people. That was what started this whole thing.
It's funny. After Wisdom dies, he talks about going to the place in the fade where it used to linger and is clearly in mourning. When it's pointed out that spirits don't really die and, given time, she could re-materialize in a new form, he says it won't be the same as it was, and it won't remember him.
He somehow hasn't noticed how this illustrates the great flaw of his plan. Even if it works and Elves are immortal and the Fade is everywhere again, the new world won't be the same as the one he remembers. It will just have some traits in common with it. His friend, as he knew it, isn't coming back.
Not having access to the mind of Weekes, what I believe Solas is thinking is roughly:
"I put up the Veil. As a result, elves lost their agelessness, their direct connection to the Fade and (for the most part) magic. They are now in (what Solas perceives to be) a worse place than they were before the Veil. I made a mistake, I need to fix it."
I believe Solas is operating mostly from a place of extreme guilt at what his actions have caused. It clouds his perceptions. He believes that restoring the elves to what they had been is the best possible solution for them. He may very well be mistaken and as you said it may not even be possible. The elves may never be the same as what they were no matter what he does.
Again, all of the above, my opinion only. I could be wrong and hopefully we'll find out in the next game(s).
... If I can just voice my opinion on something very trivial...
When Solas asks, "I imagine you have questions," in my head I responded, "you mean besides wondering where that outfit came from." But moreso... where did those thighs come from? Solas the hobo apostate was slender all over, you know, like an elf. Solas in his Fen'harel get-up... maybe it's just the thigh-high boot-things doing no favors to his legs, but.. damn is he taking Spinning classes or lifting or something? Those are some mighty thighs he's suddenly sporting. What gives?
Actually I think you can kind of detect some well-formed quads in his green Skyhold PJ trousers as well, but his trousers are straight-cut and don't belie the narrowness of his knees, so you can't really tell just how shapely his quads are.
Yeah I thought about this a lot. It's there though, at least, I can see it.
I don't know, I think people are defending elves because they're taking the parallel with real-world oppressed groups too far.
My impression was that the first two games, we were supposed to feel sorry for the "poor, innocent elves" 100%, and it wasn't until Inquisition when the new perspective that perhaps the elves themselves aren't perfect came to light.
It doesn't lay blame on them for trying to take back the Dales or revolt subsequently, but rather describes the complicated initial situations that got them there in the first place.
Well, let's face it - if we want to to have a tale that actually goes somewhere and has a point to make and a consistent story to tell (and doesn't cost a zillion dollars and has to be developed for 3 decades or something) we can't really have a game where all our choices matter... nor the game has to honor them/portion of them, IMO, especially if they explore the themes of fate, inevitability, enormous odds, twists of fate and whatnot.
(also, apologies for not responding to your PM for so long, been in a weird head-space lately due to some IRL stuff and general lack of consistent sleeping patterns that didn't leave much room for forum activity, much less lengthy replies...)
Also, I too didn't get the whole "elves deserve the awful" feeling...
If you think any fan of the elves thought they were perfect, you clearly know nothing about the fans of the elves.
No one thinks they are perfect. No one ever thought they were perfect. It's hard to take you seriously when you make these kind of accusations.
The above is your response to Addictress's statement: My impression was that the first two games, we were supposed to feel sorry for the "poor, innocent elves" 100%, and it wasn't until Inquisition when the new perspective that perhaps the elves themselves aren't perfect came to light.
That statement mentioned only her impression of the games. It said nothing about "fans of elves" or what said fans might think about elves. No accusations were made. She mentions only what her own impression of the first two games conveyed to her. Its hard to take you seriously when you overreact to a fairly innocuous statement someone makes about their own impression of the games.
Yeah I thought about this a lot. It's there though, at least, I can see it.
You have no idea how comforting that is.
Seriously, with calves that slim, for him to be sporting those quads, just.... what did he do? Clearly much more research into elvan thighs is necessary. This could be the key to everything.
I think one thing is for sure though: the straight-cut worked much better for him. This look gives him some truly womanly hips.
People like different groups; you'll find fans of the templars, the Chantry, mages among the fans of Dragon Age.
If you think any fan of the elves thought they were perfect, you clearly know nothing about the fans of the elves.
No one thinks they are perfect. No one ever thought they were perfect. It's hard to take you seriously when you make these kind of accusations.
Some people, like myself, don't think that the narrative has been balanced. I think it's shown favoritism towards the Chantry of Andrastian and Andrastian humans.
When I say perfect I mean that there is a kind of meta expectation that everyone will want to root for the elves and they are the classic oppressed group. I think many gamers playing this game in Origins and DA2 were more or less sympathizing with the elves, and the reason they are oppressed is nothing other than classic racism and ignorance on the part of the humans. The elves did nothing to deserve their plight except exist. They were free of guilt for their larger diaspora. Anecdotally, individual elves, obviously, aren't perfect, but by and large, they are victims, 100%. Inquisition is the first game in which we are introduced to a possible complication of the origin of their circumstances.
So, no, I don't think there was favoritism toward the humans or the Chantry. There are indeed fans of the chantry and fans who lean toward Fenris' views, but from a basic reading of any Dragon Age forum or fandom in general, the mages and apostates always seem to be the most popular faction, if only because Morrigan, Anders, Merrill and Solas are so overwhelmingly popular with everyone. Even Alistair, a former templar, has moderate views compared to his templar peers, he even agrees to a dark ritual for crying out loud, and he mentions in Inquisition that he wanted to help the mages initially. Even Leliana, a popular character, advocates for greater acceptance of mages, to the chagrin of Vivienne, and Cassandra explains she is also moderate and wants to confer greater respect to mages under the Chantry.
When Morrigan appears in the Kocari Wilds for the first time, Daveth and Jory spout the typical "oh no, it's a witch, she'll turn us into toads" spiel, to establish the lore which says that Thedas is a world where non-mages fear mages, and in line with the trope of ignorant peasants fearing outcasts; but all this meaning in this situation, relies on the assumption we are informed of this trope. That trope includes a modern recognition that peasants feared 'witches' because they dared to dabble in science - that trope includes a modern recognition that fear is based on lack of knowledge. All of this positions us to sympathize with mages and to assess the Chantry as an outdated institution.
You have no idea how comforting that is.
Seriously, with calves that slim, for him to be sporting those quads, just.... what did he do? Clearly much more research into elvan thighs is necessary. This could be the key to everything.
I think one thing is for sure though: the straight-cut worked much better for him. This look gives him some truly womanly hips.
The armor does overemphasize the shape of the leg although ... if I remember correctly it looks like there's supposed to be chainmail under the plate? It might just make his legs *look* larger than they are because there are more layers? I don't know, I'm not an expert on armor lol.
You have no idea how comforting that is.
Seriously, with calves that slim, for him to be sporting those quads, just.... what did he do? Clearly much more research into elvan thighs is necessary. This could be the key to everything.
I think one thing is for sure though: the straight-cut worked much better for him. This look gives him some truly womanly hips.
Dude hangs out with spirits of Fitness, obvs.
But I actually agree - I was one of the few that wasn't too hot about Trespasser Solas' outfit. He looks weirdly top-heavy with that giant pelt across his shoulder and those skin-tight leggings. I'm more of a fan of thin and lanky legs over toned and, uh... gold-plated.
But the rest of him's pretty so whatever.
You have no idea how comforting that is.
Seriously, with calves that slim, for him to be sporting those quads, just.... what did he do? Clearly much more research into elvan thighs is necessary. This could be the key to everything.
I think one thing is for sure though: the straight-cut worked much better for him. This look gives him some truly womanly hips.
Now now, womanly hips? I did not see any such thing. If anything, the golden Fen'Harel garb has comically narrow hips tapering out to his comically muscular thighs.
The longer I stare the less comical it seems, the more of a standard it becomes.
Speaking of which, the Antaam-Saar armor versus the Shokra-taar armor. Whoever designed the antaam-saar armor should be fired. Seriously, that armor is so dumb. The shokra-taar armor mesh is canon. The antaam-saar armor is a mistake.
Really, assuming the Skyhold sweater is paper-thin and clings to his skin like silk, then it is easy to see how it's the same torso underneat the Skyhold sweater and the Shokra-taar armor.
The armor does overemphasize the shape of the leg although ... if I remember correctly it looks like there's supposed to be chainmail under the plate? It might just make his legs *look* larger than they are because there are more layers? I don't know, I'm not an expert on armor lol.
... He just took down a horde of Qunari with his hands quite literally behind his back. What does he even need armor for? Why's he wearing it? I can't imagine it's that comfortable.
Generally, I'll call his above-the-waist look alright though, even if the massive shoulders make his head look tiny. I'm not sure what about it is supposed to say "Dread Wolf," besides the fur, but hey, Cullen wears fur and he's not even a god.
... He just took down a horde of Qunari with his hands quite literally behind his back. What does he even need armor for? Why's he wearing it? I can't imagine it's that comfortable.
Generally, I'll call his above-the-waist look alright though, even if the massive shoulders make his head look tiny. I'm not sure what about it is supposed to say "Dread Wolf," besides the fur, but hey, Cullen wears fur and he's not even a god.
If Blackwall is a bear (and he has a beard), and Solas is a wolf (and he has a pelt), then what is Cullen (he has feathers)?
The longer I stare the less comical it seems, the more of a standard it becomes.
That was kind of my attitude towards the bald head. I got over that.
But sorry. God-Quads are not a good look. Not budging on it.
Now now, womanly hips? I did not see any such thing. If anything, the golden Fen'Harel garb has comically narrow hips tapering out to his comically muscular thighs.
The longer I stare the less comical it seems, the more of a standard it becomes.
Speaking of which, the Antaam-Saar armor versus the Shokra-taar armor. Whoever designed the antaam-saar armor should be fired. Seriously, that armor is so dumb. The shokra-taar armor mesh is canon. The antaam-saar armor is a mistake.
Really, assuming the Skyhold sweater is paper-thin and clings to his skin like silk, then it is easy to see how it's the same torso underneat the Skyhold sweater and the Shokra-taar armor.
Whoever designed that armor should have a strongly worded letter sent to them, at least.
... He just took down a horde of Qunari with his hands quite literally behind his back. What does he even need armor for? Why's he wearing it? I can't imagine it's that comfortable.
Generally, I'll call his above-the-waist look alright though, even if the massive shoulders make his head look tiny. I'm not sure what about it is supposed to say "Dread Wolf," besides the fur, but hey, Cullen wears fur and he's not even a god.
I've never understood the furry/feathery shoulder things that a lot of mages have - or had, DAI seemed to move away from that. I think the designers were probably going for "imposing" ... or something ... when they designed Trespasser Solas.
The person who sculpted the antaam-saar armor is probably the same one who did the mesh for "Skin that Stalks." Probably doesn't like men and has no concept of the importance of shoulders and bicep mass whatsoever.
The person who sculpted the antaam-saar armor is probably the same one who did the mesh for "Skin that Stalks." Probably doesn't like men and has no concept of the importance of shoulders and bicep mass whatsoever.
Actually I'm inclined to think the Skin armor appearance is a bug. Saying "Skin armor" sounds weird but you know what I mean lol. Anyway, I don't know if they ever fixed it. I used it on one of my mages and it looked fine (because female char) until I saw the horrible clipping of the short hair through the collar.
The person who sculpted the antaam-saar armor is probably the same one who did the mesh for "Skin that Stalks." Probably doesn't like men and has no concept of the importance of shoulders and bicep mass whatsoever.
I might be mistaken but as it was explained to me, BioWare just got skimpy with the character models. Some of the armors that, say, Solas wears are custom meshes that were fitted to his specific character model - Enchanter Armor, for instance, changes depending on who's wearing it, so Solas' version of that armor is customized specifically for him. But some of the meshes (Like the DLC ones) are the same outfit no matter who they go on, so for Solas they just re-use the same mesh they give to male elf Inquisitors... who are considerably slimmer than he is. It ends up making him look like some weird polymorph that constantly changes his body mass. It's why Cole suddenly gains a six-pack and why Blackwall's body shrinks to a size too small for his head.
But I can't remember where I heard that explanation, so I can't verify how true it is.
The above is your response to Addictress's statement: My impression was that the first two games, we were supposed to feel sorry for the "poor, innocent elves" 100%, and it wasn't until Inquisition when the new perspective that perhaps the elves themselves aren't perfect came to light.
That statement mentioned only her impression of the games. It said nothing about "fans of elves" or what said fans might think about elves. No accusations were made. She mentions only what her own impression of the first two games conveyed to her.
Its hard to take you seriously when you overreact to a fairly innocuous statement someone makes about their own impression of the games.
Which was made after I brought up my criticisms of the writing for elves in this series, which you don't seem to be addressing in your post.
You mean the games with Zathrian depicted as both duplicitous and an antagonist because of the curse and with Marethari setting a dangerous spirit free and endangering her entire clan as an abomination? Or with Fenris' sister selling him out to a slaver?
You mean a post made in response to my post.
Why would I address your criticisms of the writing of elves in DA? I don't care about your opinion of how the elves were written in DA and that wasn't what I was speaking to. You accused Addictress of making accusations about "the fans of elves seeing elves as 100% perfect" ... I just scrolled back through the conversation and I still don't see where she makes any such accusations. She was relaying the impressions she received of the games. Whether you think those impressions are accurate or not is irrelevant to my point of contention, i.e. the supposed accusations.
Its not my intention to "white knight" anyone. I've been following the conversation but as I have no opinion one way or the other (or at least, not one I care to share) I felt no need to put my 2 cents in on the topic. However, at no point did I see Addictress "accusing" anyone of anything. Unless she wants to clarify and say she was at which point I will apologize.
Retour en haut