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[Addictress]

Yah I wrote another post clarifying what I meant by perfect. It was my impression of how straight-forwardly they were victimized in the first two games - their position as pure victims. Perfect as in.. pure, I guess?

[Elessara]

If you want to see an actually villified people, that would be Tevinter and the Qunari.

The elves seem more balanced. There are unsavory bits in their history but they continue to be portrayed as people we should help.

 

Point there ... really don't hear too many good things about Tevinter especially.  But the current archon supposedly likes cats .. so there's that, I guess? 

[LobselVith8]

Personally, I don't think that the oppressed status gives you a golden medal that attests to your perfection and moral purity. It isn't inherently wrong to consider that they can be partially responsible for their situation.

 

That's not what Ghost is saying. Ghost's initial issue was the speculation that things aren't going to change for the elves in the future. That's something that I think will likely be the case, given how the developers rectonned the outcome of the Dalish Boon rather than handle it post-Origins, or the Elven Warden becoming the new Bann of the Alienage (as Ghost brought up).​

 

Second, the enslavement of the elves by the Imperium and the occupation of the Dales by Orlais were brought up because Ghost's criticism was that it was "one endless stream of oppression".

 

Solas' actions may be the justification used by the developers to press the 'reset' button on matters like Briala ruling over Orlais or Clan Lavellan governing Wycome, similar to how they rectonned the Dalish Boon and then ignored the matter entirely when Lavellan enters a Redcliffe-controlled Hinterlands.

 

This isn't a black and white subject. Some of their misery is a result of their own actions and some of it just couldn't be avoided. Ancient elves destroyed themselves through infighting (and Solas, ahem) and the Dalish made things worse at Red Crossing.

 

You make Red Crossing sound one-sided, but it wasn't. Humans murdered an elf before the incident at Red Crossing even took place; during the incident, one of the Emerald Knights shot an arrow at a human woman who was charging at them (because the Knight thought the woman was planning to attack them), then a group of humans followed this up by murdering the human woman's nearby elven lover and attempting to kill all the Emerald Knights. It's not a one-sided event.

 

It's also arguable whether it's justified to launch a war against an entire nation of people due to an incident involving a handful of people.

 

However, the city elves might be the closest to blameless in that they are born into a scenario where the most they can do is rioting with no success. And while their ancestors that surrendered may have not made the best choice, it was a peaceful way out.

 

I'm certain you didn't intend it that way, but your sentence comes across like you think the Dalish merit some blame for being born Dalish.

 

Furthermore, Ghost's point was never that things should be black and white, it's that the narrative never seems to allow the elves to escape their plight. Ghost's other criticism is that the narrative seems to "blame the elves for their own oppression", which has to do with how the developers chose to frame the story. There are plenty of people who have spoken out about they felt the same way, and that it made them uncomfortable. This really has nothing to do with making things black and white, but rather how the developers chose to handle the story.​

 

Regardless of how circumstances became this way, it still is undeniable that they must change. And the fact that the elves have contributed to their fate doesn't mean the humans are absolved.

 

Which does get us back to Ghost's initial commentary about feeling that the developers have no intention of bringing about lasting, positive change for the elves, which I'm inclined to agree with.

 

As for the political power needed to back them up, there are other ways. I believe that Briala is a good start and if you've read the Masked Empire, you know her intentions are true.

 

Briala used a network of Eluvians to start her rebellion during the Orlesian civil war, and then she can become a noble through the Inquisitor allowing Celene to be assassinated and then blackmailing Gaspard, but I don't think that scenario is really applicable as a course of action for most elves.

[Qun00]

Would you stop talking about Ghost? I don't even know what post you're referring to. And honestly, I don't care unless she was replying to me.

Regarding Red Crossing, the fact that both parties are to blame doesn't erase the elves' contribution. Hahren Paivel says the Exalted March happened because they didn't worship the Maker, but it was a little more complicated than that.

Now, is that incident enough to wage war? Certainly not. But it was never said to be the sole reason why the Exalted March happened. This was more like the last drop after years of tension between the two nations.

No, the way Briala's rose to power can't be mimicked by other elves. But it is a start. Maybe she can improve Orlais enough that they can achieve that through other means.

Call me naive, but I believe the pro mage changes made by Divine Leliana and those Briala will cause just might last.

[LobselVith8]

When I say perfect I mean that there is a kind of meta expectation that everyone will want to root for the elves and they are the classic oppressed group. I think many gamers playing this game in Origins and DA2 were more or less sympathizing with the elves, and the reason they are oppressed is nothing other than classic racism and ignorance on the part of the humans. The elves did nothing to deserve their plight except exist. They were free of guilt for their larger diaspora. Anecdotally, individual elves, obviously, aren't perfect, but by and large, they are victims, 100%. Inquisition is the first game in which we are introduced to a possible complication of the origin of their circumstances.

 

Actually, a lot of people voiced their dislike for elves in Dragon Age ever since Origins. They generalized the Dalish, as if every member of the group was exactly the same, and acted as if every one of them was like Sarel. Then there were complaints because of Velanna. I've never read anyone say that they felt that everyone will want to root for the elves, not even the developers. Gaider's criticism for fan favoritisim was always directed at the people who sided with the mages. 

 

Dragon Age II also had fans complaining because of the reception Clan Sabrae provides Hawke, and then they complained about Merrill because she was a blood mage and was building an Eluvian.

 

Given the myriad of complaints that have been directed at the elves over the years, I have no idea how anyone who has been part of this fandom could ever say that the majority of people viewed them as perfect. No one ever made that claim, and the story certainly didn't. Zathrian is position as being wrong in the story; Velanna is positioned as being wrong in the story.

 

For people who did like the elves, a common complaint was that people felt that the narrative never really explored much in the way of their perspective. For example, Sarel is commonly pointed out as an example of a "typical Dalish elf", but as Mahariel you find out that he's acting that way because his wife was recently murdered by the werewolves. It's not something you find out if you play as another race and have never played as a Dalish elf. The fact that you have someone rude up front and center pretty much gives off a certain impression, and it's one that most people often claim is "the tyical Dalish", to the point where they assume that's the only kind of Dalish elf there is.

 

Another example is the reception Hawke received at Sundermount, where the Dalish are painted in a bad light for being apprehensive about a total stranger approaching their camp. Rather than address the dangers that the Dalish face because of outsiders (particularly humans), the tone of the scene vilifies the Dalish for not buttering Hawke's butt. In contrast, you a multitude of characters speaking positively about the Chantry of Andraste, and the story positions a member of the Chantry as one of the "good guys". Even Legacy had Anders spout pro-Chantry dialogue at the end.

 

So, no, I don't think there was favoritism toward the humans or the Chantry. There are indeed fans of the chantry and fans who lean toward Fenris' views, but from a basic reading of any Dragon Age forum or fandom in general, the mages and apostates always seem to be the most popular faction, if only because Morrigan, Anders, Merrill and Solas are so overwhelmingly popular with everyone. Even Alistair, a former templar, has moderate views compared to his templar peers, he even agrees to a dark ritual for crying out loud, and he mentions in Inquisition that he wanted to help the mages initially. Even Leliana, a popular character, advocates for greater acceptance of mages, to the chagrin of Vivienne, and Cassandra explains she is also moderate and wants to confer greater respect to mages under the Chantry.

 

You're welcome to view things that way, but I don't share your view. There are also a plethora of people who have had to deal with a

 

When Morrigan appears in the Kocari Wilds for the first time, Daveth and Jory spout the typical "oh no, it's a witch, she'll turn us into toads" spiel, to establish the lore which says that Thedas is a world where non-mages fear mages, and in line with the trope of ignorant peasants fearing outcasts; but all this meaning in this situation, relies on the assumption we are informed of this trope. That trope includes a modern recognition that peasants feared 'witches' because they dared to dabble in science - that trope includes a modern recognition that fear is based on lack of knowledge. All of this positions us to sympathize with mages and to assess the Chantry as an outdated institution.

 

Except the narrative doesn't do the same with the Dalish - if it did, we wouldn't have Sarel acting rude to us, and only find out about his wife if we played as a Dalish elf. If it did, we wouldn't have Velanna in the wrong, or all the dialogue that positioned her anger at humans as being wrong (as well as ignoring that the humans tried to burn down her clan). If it did, we wouldn't have Clan Sabrae acting rude to us, with Hawke acting as though he has no idea why they're acting that way, and then Fenris or Varric making disparaging remarks about them. You can't honestly expect me to think the story pushed us to be pro-Dalish when the developers positioned the story in this manner.

[Addictress]

Actually, a lot of people voiced their dislike for elves in Dragon Age ever since Origins. They generalized the Dalish, as if every member of the group was exactly the same, and acted as if every one of them was like Sarel. Then there were complaints because of Velanna. I've never read anyone say that they felt that everyone will want to root for the elves, not even the developers. Gaider's criticism for fan favoritisim was always directed at the people who sided with the mages.

So actually, yes I agree. But I think the fans' negative reactions you are describing here are because the narrative expected us to root for the elves. So, what I mean is the games were really pushing a one-dimensional view of the elves, but the gamers saw through that.
 

Dragon Age II also had fans complaining because of the reception Clan Sabrae provides Hawke, and then they complained about Merrill because she was a blood mage and was building an Eluvian.
 
Given the myriad of complaints that have been directed at the elves over the years, I have no idea how anyone who has been part of this fandom could ever say that the majority of people viewed them as perfect. No one ever made that claim, and the story certainly didn't. Zathrian is position as being wrong in the story; Velanna is positioned as being wrong in the story.

I don't really think the fans thought they were perfect. I feel like... the narrative pushed this expectation that they are a typical one-dimensional, 'perfect,' oppressed group the first two games. I don't necessarily mean that fans bought into it. So then, Inquisition dispelled this. Indeed, the whole Dragon Age series was just fronting that one-dimensional, heavy-handed view of the elves. The elves aren't a stereotype after all.

[LobselVith8]

I will never agree with putting the oppressed on a shiny pedestal. Nobody is above being held responsible for their own actions.

 

I never said the elves should be put on a pedestal, I addressed that the elves aren't as fleshed out as Andrastian humans are, and provided examples of the marginalization of the elves in the Dales, barely mentioning the massacre of thousands of elves in Halmshiral, the lack of story for Briala, the lack of a pro-Dalish character in Inquisition, and the treatment of the Dalish and the elven religion in comparison to the Chantry and the Andrastian faith. None of that had to do with putting the elves on a pedestal, it had to do with favoring one group and marginalizing another.

 

The elves aren't to blame for their situation in the alienages or the slavery in Tevinter and I've never seen anyone say otherwise in the games.

 

I've read plenty of posts where people came to that conclusion because of how the narrative is framed, but it's hardly my only issue with Inquisition, as you can easily read above by the multiple examples I brought up, or by the other examples I brought up earlier.

 

Exactly. Portraying them as perfect people with a squeacky clean history isn't a requirement to sympathise with their plight.

 

Considering that no one claimed that the elves should be perfect or blameless, I honestly don't understand why you continue to make this claim. Asking for the Dalish and the Andrastian elves to be given more story content, more development, more balance, (all things that Andrastian characters received in Inquisition and the DLC) isn't equivalent to wanting them to be "perfect" or "blameless".

 

And yet people protest against the discovery that the elves aren't completely innocent.

 

You're literally responding to Xil pointing out that no one is claiming that the elves should be innocent.

[Qun00]

Complaining about every single time the elves aren't portrayed as good is the kind of thing people that expect them to be perfect would do. Is it always so unacceptable?

For instance, I don't consider the fact that the hostility directed at Hawke wasn't explained to be an intentional way to make the Dalish look bad. It's just that the writers didn't think "Hey, there should be the option to complain that they were rude. Then Marethari would apologize on their behalf".

And yes, Sarel was in mourning but the elven woman that greets you with suspicion wasn't. Neither was the npc from the Warden's clan that wonders if Duncan hurt Tamlen. And I'd suspect most elves in the clan featured in The Masked Empire had no dead wives .

You see, it is an attitude shared by most Dalish clans. Even clan Lavellan's keeper points out that they're unique in the fact that they don't hate humans.

But you know, there are worse flaws than that. It is one of those cases where it isn't right but understandable given circumstances and their bitter history.

[LobselVith8]

So actually, yes I agree. But I think the fans' negative reactions you are describing here are because the narrative expected us to root for the elves. So, what I mean is the games were really pushing a one-dimensional view of the elves, but the gamers saw through that.

 

I don't see how the narrative expected us to root for them. The story in Origins forced you to speak with Sarel, and he was rude to you, and you had no idea of knowing why - plenty of fans came to the impression that the Dalish were simply rude. Was it explained that the Dalish are wary because the Chantry outlawed their religion, or because humans threaten them if they stay too long in one place? No, it wasn't. Was it explained that Sarel was rude to you because his wife was recently murdered? Only if you were Dalish, and given how many people didn't know about the murder of Sarel's wife during the Origin days of BSN (and even these days), there weren't many people who played as a Dalish elf.

 

Or perhaps we can look at Velanna, who is constantly positioned as being wrong. Does the story focus on the fact that humans tried to burn down her clan? No, it focuses on her anger, and how the intelligent darkspawn manipulated her into thinking humans killed her people and abducted her sister. The story constantly reinforced that she was in the wrong (from Nathaniel's treatment of her to Justice bringing up that she needed to atone).

 

Then there's Clan Sabrae at Kirkwall. Is it explained to Hawke that the reason that the elves are cautious about outsiders is because they were getting threats to convert? No, that's saved as an optional dialogue in Act III that's easy to miss, and is only available if you spared Zevran and bypass the elf with the quest marker who is closer to you (as you enter the Dalish camp) than the other elves you can optionally speak to, so many players likely wouldn't even bother speaking to them. Instead, the Dalish are mocked by Fenris and Varric.

 

I simply can't ignore these examples, which is why I strongly disagree with you.

 

I don't really think the fans thought they were perfect. I feel like... the narrative pushed this expectation that they are a typical one-dimensional, 'perfect,' oppressed group the first two games. I don't necessarily mean that fans bought into it. So then, Inquisition dispelled this. Indeed, the whole Dragon Age series was just fronting that one-dimensional, heavy-handed view of the elves. The elves aren't a stereotype after all.

 

How did the story tell us they were perfect? Zathrian caused a curse that nearly lead to the demise of his clan. Velanna killed innocent people because she was wrong about who killed her people and kidnapped her sister. Marethari frees a dangerous, ancient spirit and tries to murder Hawke and Merrill, and then her clan can easily die unless you choose an unlikely dialogue option (which was also a complaint that came up when Dragon Age II was released).

 

There's simply too much in the story to ever convince me that the developers intended to see the Dalish as perfect. They clearly aren't. Plenty of people voiced how they disliked the Dalish because they were rude to the player character. Some people didn't even understand why Clan Sabrae was wary to Hawke when Dragon Age II came out because the narrative never bothered to inform the player. There's Ilen acting ungrateful when Hawke offers to help deal with a problem.

 

Even TME depicted the Dalish in a rather negative light, and then killed off an entire clan (which was becoming a Dragon Age trope at this point). I'm not seeing how the developers wanted us to root for the Dalish or to think that they were perfect.

[Addictress]

Except the narrative doesn't do the same with the Dalish - if it did, we wouldn't have Sarel acting rude to us, and only find out about his wife if we played as a Dalish elf. If it did, we wouldn't have Velanna in the wrong, or all the dialogue that positioned her anger at humans as being wrong (as well as ignoring that the humans tried to burn down her clan). If it did, we wouldn't have Clan Sabrae acting rude to us, with Hawke acting as though he has no idea why they're acting that way, and then Fenris or Varric making disparaging remarks about them. You can't honestly expect me to think the story pushed us to be pro-Dalish when the developers positioned the story in this manner.

The mages are a separate thing, this conversation split into two points: whether the games favor the Chantry, as opposed to mages, and whether the games/fans portrayed or felt the elves were pure/one-dimensionally good. I just never really took the Chantry as an opposing force to the elves. There are parallels overall between the oppression of mages and the opression of elves but only in a very high-level sense (remember how Anders might've tried to appeal to Fenris's angst regarding slavery in Tevinter, which affects elves disproportionately, in presenting his issues regarding the circle). But then Fenris rejected that olive branch, so I think the Chantry/mages and the Humans/Elves are kind of running on two different tracks as of now, though they do seem to intertwine more and more.

[DreamerM]

If Blackwall is a bear (and he has a beard), and Solas is a wolf (and he has a pelt), then what is Cullen (he has feathers)?

I thought Cullen was a lion, because of the helm. But I guess a golden eagle would also work for him. Just gotta love his golden eyes and golden hair, which Alistair also had, actually. I wonder if that's a Fereldan trait. Though Ser Michel of Orlais also had that, so.. is it a half-elf trait? Cullen can't be half elf, right? Right? Hmm...

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The Dalish aren't exactly special for having bad examples. The Chantry has Petrice, purposefully addicting Templars to lyrium as a control mechanism, the preistesses just being generally condescending in a few instances, etc. The circles have Adrian (*shudder*), the abuses of the Templars being tolerated, the abominations running amok in Kinloch Hold. Tevinter is, well, Tevinter.

 

With the addition of Dorian and Krem to the cast, all sides have their virtues and vices, their screw ups and their saints. I think this goes to show the writers don't have a hate-on for the elves any more than they do other factions.

 

I thought Cullen was a lion, because of the helm. But I guess a golden eagle would also work for him. Just gotta love his golden eyes and golden hair, which Alistair also had, actually. I wonder if that's a Fereldan trait. Though Ser Michel of Orlais also had that, so.. is it a half-elf trait? Cullen can't be half elf, right? Right? Hmm...

Well, he never says he isn't. And he does have no problem with you being an elf... hmm. Half-elven till proven otherwise? lol

 

Kidding!

 

.... Or am I?

[LobselVith8]

Regarding Red Crossing, the fact that both parties are to blame doesn't erase the elves' contribution. Hahren Paivel says the Exalted March happened because they didn't worship the Maker, but it was a little more complicated than that.

 

I never claimed the elves were blameless, I said it wasn't a one-sided event (which means I wasn't strictly blaming one side over the other).

 

Complaining about every single time the elves aren't portrayed as good is the kind of thing people that expect them to be perfect would do. Is it always so unacceptable?

 

Did I say that it was wrong for Zathrian to be responsible for the curse? No. Did I say it was wrong for Velanna to be wrong about humans killing her people or kidnapping her sister? No. Did I say it was wrong for Marethari to make one colossal mistake after another, especially letting Audacity loose and endangering her clan? No. The reason I cited those examples are because I don't believe that the developers ever intended for us to see the Dalish as perfect.

 

For instance, I don't consider the fact that the hostility directed at Hawke wasn't explained to be an intentional way to make the Dalish look bad. It's just that the writers didn't think "Hey, there should be the option to complain that they were rude. Then Marethari would apologize on their behalf".

 

Considering that plenty of players didn't understand why the Dalish would be apprehensive of humans, I disagree. I shouldn't have to read the codex entries in order to understand why the Dalish would be cautious of humans, and Hawke should already know why the Dalish might perceive a stranger as a threat.

 

And yes, Sarel was in mourning but the elven woman that greets you with suspicion wasn't. Neither was the npc from the Warden's clan that wonders if Duncan hurt Tamlen. And I'd suspect most elves in the clan featured in The Masked Empire had no dead wives .

 

Mithra's priority is the safety of the clan; she lets you in immediately if you simply tell her you're a Grey Warden. Duncan is a stranger and human, which is why some members of Clan Sabrae would be concerned (let's not forget that the entire reason the Dalish are nomadic is because they are attacked if they stay too long in one location, and they also have to deal with templars as well).

 

You see, it is an attitude shared by most Dalish clans. Even clan Lavellan's keeper points out that they're unique in the fact that they don't hate humans.

 

The human Hall was raised by the Dalish elf Fanora, the historical Aveline was adopted by a Dalish clan, and Feynriel is permitted to join Clan Sabrae (and they defend him from templars who tortured one of their children in an attempt to capture him), so Clan Lavellan certainly isn't alone in not hating humans. Gaider said that the Dalish have a semi-permanent settlement of Dalish elves who live outside the Rivaini city of Llomerryn, and that the humans who believe in the Natural Order (rather than the Andrastian faith) encourage the purchase of elven goods from the Dalish; they seem to co-exist peacefully. 

 

The Dalish are an ethnic group of people; like any group of people, you can't act as if they're all the same.

[Addictress]

I don't see how the narrative expected us to root for them. The story in Origins forced you to speak with Sarel, and he was rude to you, and you had no idea of knowing why - plenty of fans came to the impression that the Dalish were simply rude. Was it explained that the Dalish are wary because the Chantry outlawed their religion, or because humans threaten them if they stay too long in one place? No, it wasn't. Was it explained that Sarel was rude to you because his wife was recently murdered? Only if you were Dalish, and given how many people didn't know about the murder of Sarel's wife during the Origin days of BSN (and even these days), there weren't many people who played as a Dalish elf.

Sarel: "Oh, I am certain we played a part in our downfall. We believed that the shemlen would not revoke their prophet's gift so lightly. We were wrong. They took our lands, forcing us to abandon our gods and live as beggars in shemlen cities."
Sten: "You should have fought. You should have fought to the last of you. Better that than to submit."

He was rude for a sympathetic reason. Everything Sarel is saying is about how the humans completely broke their promise and were jerks to the elves. Then, your companion Sten says they should've fought harder to defend themselves. So my final impression of this character isn't just a rude guy - it's a member of a victimized population who is understandably bitter.

Or perhaps we can look at Velanna, who is constantly positioned as being wrong. Does the story focus on the fact that humans tried to burn down her clan? No, it focuses on her anger, and how the intelligent darkspawn manipulated her into thinking humans killed her people and abducted her sister. The story constantly reinforced that she was in the wrong (from Nathaniel's treatment of her to Justice bringing up that she needed to atone).

Yeah, I hated Velanna, but in the sense that I hate animal rights activists and eco terrorists. They're going to extremes on an individual basis but behind it all are principles and ethics which are in line with my morals. Velanna was wrong, and blinded by hate and anger (imagine Yoda's voice here), but her character is still predicated on the massive weight of the fundamental world state that caused someone like her to exist in the first place - the world state in which there is a long history of humans abusing elves. Velanna's stupidity wasn't enough to reverse this pretense.

Then there's Clan Sabrae at Kirkwall. Is it explained to Hawke that the reason that the elves are cautious about outsiders is because they were getting threats to convert? No, that's saved as an optional dialogue in Act III that's easy to miss, and is only available if you spared Zevran and bypass the elf with the quest marker who is closer to you (as you enter the Dalish camp) than the other elves you can optionally speak to, so many players likely wouldn't even bother speaking to them. Instead, the Dalish are mocked by Fenris and Varric.
 
I simply can't ignore these examples, which is why I strongly disagree with you.

Honestly, by this point, the elves were so one-dimensionally oppressed, Merrill's clan's squabbling amongst themselves (and Merrill saying, you aren't seeing us at our best) was a refreshing fleshing-out of the elves. They are just like us, and have fights, and dramas. While before I said that the elves weren't fleshed out until Inquisition, perhaps I was wrong - the trend did start here. But I guess it slipped my mind, since Merrill again repeatedly discusses how all her peoples' history is lost, and we introduce her to an alienage (and hang out in the alienage, in general) which reinforces the reality of the elves' situation. If anything, Clan Sabrae's illustration that they are real people only served to deepen expected sympathy for the elves in the alienage. They aren't just creatures trapped in poverty, they are people trapped in poverty.
 
 

How did the story tell us they were perfect? Zathrian caused a curse that nearly lead to the demise of his clan. Velanna killed innocent people because she was wrong about who killed her people and kidnapped her sister. Marethari frees a dangerous, ancient spirit and tries to murder Hawke and Merrill, and then her clan can easily die unless you choose an unlikely dialogue option (which was also a complaint that came up when Dragon Age II was released).

These are all examples of characters whose motivations spring from the world state in which their families, their people, are in horrible straits. So again my argument is that the elves were one-dimensionally victimized, and oppressed, people. I just think we are talking of two separate things. The root of all these characters' machinations would be absolved were inequality eliminated - we still basically sympathize with the dire straits of the elves.

[Addictress]

I thought Cullen was a lion, because of the helm. But I guess a golden eagle would also work for him. Just gotta love his golden eyes and golden hair, which Alistair also had, actually. I wonder if that's a Fereldan trait. Though Ser Michel of Orlais also had that, so.. is it a half-elf trait? Cullen can't be half elf, right? Right? Hmm...

OMG! I never see Cullen's lion helmet in my playthroughs. Is it because I had the helmet option turned off??

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

... If I can just voice my opinion on something very trivial...

When Solas asks, "I imagine you have questions," in my head I responded, "you mean besides wondering where that outfit came from." But moreso... where did those thighs come from? Solas the hobo apostate was slender all over, you know, like an elf. Solas in his Fen'harel get-up... maybe it's just the thigh-high boot-things doing no favors to his legs, but.. damn is he taking Spinning classes or lifting or something? Those are some mighty thighs he's suddenly sporting. What gives?

 

 

Actually I think you can kind of detect some well-formed quads in his green Skyhold PJ trousers as well, but his trousers are straight-cut and don't belie the narrowness of his knees, so you can't really tell just how shapely his quads are.

 

Yeah I thought about this a lot. It's there though, at least, I can see it. 

 

 

The armor does overemphasize the shape of the leg although ... if I remember correctly it looks like there's supposed to be chainmail under the plate?  It might just make his legs *look* larger than they are because there are more layers?  I don't know, I'm not an expert on armor lol.

 

 

Dude hangs out with spirits of Fitness, obvs.

 

But I actually agree - I was one of the few that wasn't too hot about Trespasser Solas' outfit. He looks weirdly top-heavy with that giant pelt across his shoulder and those skin-tight leggings. I'm more of a fan of thin and lanky legs over toned and, uh... gold-plated.

 

But the rest of him's pretty so whatever.

 

 

I deeply and sincerely love all of you, do you know that? (And I mean that to anyone I missed quoting in this conversation, too. You are all wonderful people.)

[Addictress]

The Dalish are an ethnic group of people; like any group of people, you can't act as if they're all the same.

I'm not the one saying they're all the same. Originally, in this thread, I read posts saying that the game's narrative tone continually blamed elves for their plight. I disagreed - the game's tone didn't do that. The game's tone wanted us to sympathize with the elves as classic, oppressed victims. I said "perfect" because in the first two games we are lead to assume they are guilt-free in the origin of their oppression, on a national scale. Individual characters that are.. well, characters, acting out in anger or malice aren't enough to reverse this world state. And in fact, perhaps showing individual characters acting like flawed people only served to deepen our sympathy for the oppressed elves as a whole.

But why are they oppressed? Is it just black and white racism - humans hating on people they don't understand, or who they fear? No. The very origin of the elves is more complicated, as revealed in Inquisition.

[LobselVith8]

Sarel: "Oh, I am certain we played a part in our downfall. We believed that the shemlen would not revoke their prophet's gift so lightly. We were wrong. They took our lands, forcing us to abandon our gods and live as beggars in shemlen cities."
Sten: "You should have fought. You should have fought to the last of you. Better that than to submit."

He was rude for a sympathetic reason. Everything Sarel is saying is about how the humans completely broke their promise and were jerks to the elves. Then, your companion Sten says they should've fought harder to defend themselves. So my final impression of this character isn't just a rude guy - it's a member of a victimized population who is understandably bitter.

 

So Sarel is sympathetic because he provides an incredibly vague response to the Warden, while the actual explanation they believe in is left in a Dalish codex about the Dales? I'm not convinced. The only thing most people focused on was the fact that Sarel was rude - that's all. When these developers try to persuade players to favor a particular side, they don't make the person rude. Look at Elthina - she's positioned as being nice to you, as being the only one who can potentially bring peace between Meredith and Orsino, and it feels like the developers want you to like her.

 

Honestly, by this point, the elves were so one-dimensionally oppressed, Merrill's clan's squabbling amongst themselves (and Merrill saying, you aren't seeing us at our best) was a refreshing fleshing-out of the elves. They are just like us, and have fights, and dramas. While before I said that the elves weren't fleshed out until Inquisition, perhaps I was wrong - the trend did start here. But I guess it slipped my mind, since Merrill again repeatedly discusses how all her peoples' history is lost, and we introduce her to an alienage (and hang out in the alienage, in general) which reinforces the reality of the elves' situation. If anything, Clan Sabrae's illustration that they are real people only served to deepen expected sympathy for the elves in the alienage. They aren't just creatures trapped in poverty, they are people trapped in poverty.

 

A "refreshing fleshing-out" of the Dalish would have necessitated actually fleshing them out. Good, bad, ugly - giving them the same kind of nuance and development that the developers give the Andrastian human characters. You don't point to the developers giving little to no development of a group and act as if the developers gave them the same kind of treatment that they've given the Andrastian humans in their stories.

 

These are all examples of characters whose motivations spring from the world state in which their families, their people, are in horrible straits. So again my argument is that the elves were one-dimensionally victimized, and oppressed, people. I just think we are talking of two separate things. The root of all these characters' machinations would be absolved were inequality eliminated - we still basically sympathize with the dire straits of the elves.

 

Your argument that the developers intended for us to view the Dalish as perfect doesn't work precisely because those characters and their flaws exist. You can't claim the Dalish were intended to be viewed as perfect when you have clearly imperfect Dalish elves who are wrong in the story.

[CapricornSun]

Art post...

 

'Wolf Hunt'. Trespasser Solas and Lavellan.

Spoiler

 

Close up:

 

Source: https://fenrirsruthl...t-there-to-be-a

 

'Ruined Chasm'. Solas x Lavellan fight.

Spoiler

 

Close up:

 

Source: https://fenrirsruthl...fight-i-started

 

Lovely headshots of Solas, and Solas x Lavellan.

Spoiler

Source: http://noctuaalba.tu...shots-first-for

 

"Before the music stops, dance with me." Solavellan at Halamshiral.

Spoiler

Source: http://valalin.tumbl...ce-with-me-yeah

 

A lovely portrait of Solas done by our own Drosophila! 

Spoiler

Source: http://fullmetal-dro...883615548/solas

 

Trespasser Solas sketch by Aimo.

Spoiler

Source: http://aimosketchcar...ded-in-the-most

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

We get it, Lobsel. The Dalish aren't perfect, have never been perfect, and never will be perfect. In fact they are often jerks. You are right.

[LobselVith8]

We get it, Lobsel. The Dalish aren't perfect, have never been perfect, and never will be perfect. In fact they are often jerks. You are right.

 

Are you upset that you were wrong about Gisharel?

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Are you upset that you were wrong about Gisharel?

... The hell are you even talking about?

 

I am a bit upset that you are so argumentative to the point where you go through responses to you, parse everything, and present even the smallest rebuttal comment with an entire wall of text to read that basically boils down to "Well, I'm still right and I'm gonna beat this horse till you admit it, so there." but hey, Fine. I admit it. You are right that the Dalish are not perfect and they have, in fact, been shown to be jerks in the past. Congrats, I guess?

[Addictress]

So Sarel is sympathetic because he provides an incredibly vague response to the Warden, while the actual explanation they believe in is left in a Dalish codex about the Dales? I'm not convinced. The only thing most people focused on was the fact that Sarel was rude - that's all. When these developers try to persuade players to favor a particular side, they don't make the person rude. Look at Elthina - she's positioned as being nice to you, as being the only one who can potentially bring peace between Meredith and Orsino, and it feels like the developers want you to like her.

It's not hidden in the codex. Sarel describes in that dialogue directly why he is angry - he passive aggressively states how the humans broke their promise.  Regarding Elthina, while we like the woman, she is nothing more than a symbol of the chantry. The frustrating, immovable brick stuck in the gears of change. And I think the developers both wanted us to perceive that, and demonstrated that.
 

A "refreshing fleshing-out" of the Dalish would have necessitated actually fleshing them out. Good, bad, ugly - giving them the same kind of nuance and development that the developers give the Andrastian human characters. You don't point to the developers giving little to no development of a group and act as if the developers gave them the same kind of treatment that they've given the Andrastian humans in their stories.
 
 
Your argument that the developers intended for us to view the Dalish as perfect doesn't work precisely because those characters and their flaws exist. You can't claim the Dalish were intended to be viewed as perfect when you have clearly imperfect Dalish elves who are wrong in the story.

The elves did have development, though. The thing was, our initial impression of them is one of stark black and white victimization. To compensate for this, to flesh them out, they have to provide characters acting out in anger and hatred. But there were definitely plenty of nice elves too. Look at Leah and her father in DA2, who was holed up with that pedo. Or the slave girl we encounter on the way to defeat Adrianna. Look at the abused girlfriend of the elf blood mage we kill by request of Meredith. And the entire alienage of Origins, and its kind Hahren, etc. The bulk and foundation of the elves are oppressed, victimized people. To flesh them out you require characters that react to oppression as people in real life often do - hatred, anger, who carry out often irrational and impulsive actions.

And.. I don't know, I already explained the operation of those flawed characters and what perfect means.

[LobselVith8]

... The hell are you even talking about?

 

When I explained that you were wrong about the Dalish getting all their information from Gisharel. I'm trying to understand your transparent attempt to bait me, and that's really all I could come up with.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

When I explained that you were wrong about the Dalish getting all their information from Gisharel. I'm trying to understand your transparent attempt to bait me, and that's really all I could come up with.

Please see my edited post.