153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Ellawynn]

The simple issue is that I didn't feel your earlier comparison worked precisely because Origins invites you into non-Andrastian cultures as the main character, so that your outlook isn't meant to be focused on only the Andrastian humans. A dwarven Warden coming to Orzammar, for example, is a different experience than Tabris heading to one of the last Great Thaigs in existence, and their people are likely to be their primary concern.

 

Origins was interwoven with the different cultures you could be part of - the dwarves of Orzammar and the nomadic Dalish were two of those choices. Plenty of people came to enjoy these other non-Andrastian cultures, enough so that when the developers initially said Inquisition would be 'human only', many of them made it clear that they wouldn't be purchased Inquisition as a result, and then the developers changed their minds and made the choice to implement different races. Given that, I don't see the point in marginalizing these other cultures, particularly when the developers had opportunities to explore these other cultures in Inquisition - like when the protagonist heads to the Dales and should have encountered the elves of the Dales, instead of more human-centric quests that we already had in Ferelden and Orlais.

 

 

 

So you think it's uneven story-telling? That's fine. That's a criticism with merit. You wouldn't be the first to say that Dragon Age rather suddenly changed tunes between games.

 

But this does sort of contradict your earlier point about the Dalish not getting enough attention.  Now it sounds more like you're saying "The Dalish got enough attention in Origins, and now they aren't." If you found their portrayal in Origins to be lacking, then we're right back where we started, and you can't really accuse BioWare of suddenly changing how they treat the Dalish when they've given them the same treatment since Origins. 

 

And if you're main argument is that Origins was more interesting because it focused less on humans - well, maybe that criticism's momentary, then. DA2 was about the mage/templars, and sort of about the Qunari. Inquisition was about the turmoil in the Chantry. But these things are mostly contained to the games themselves. Given that we have Solas running around, perhaps a future sequel will shift focus to the elves instead.

 

 

It was about the Warden facing the Blight, so I don't see how you can argue that the Warden wasn't the main character. And Origins was an RPG - it kind of defeats the purpose if you're playing as a predefined character.

 

 

 

Well, as Tea pointed out, that story's not about the Warden. It's about Alistair, and Morrigan, and the werewolves, and the Deep Roads, and the Fade, and Thedas as a whole. The Blight was just an excuse to go on a Fereldan Road Trip, and the Warden was just the vehicle the story got around in. They didn't really matter, after their Origin ends. And I'd hesitate to call them the main character in the same way Geralt or even Hawke are. 

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind. Not every story has to follow the same structure, and while I wish the Warden was a bit more central, the story still worked and still accomplished what it wanted to.  I'm just saying that Origins was never really about Surana or Mahariel or Sabrae. It wasn't really about Aeducan or Brosca or Amell either. Hence why the Origins are ultimately not very important.

 

 

 

 

 

Because you don't seem to venture into those kind of threads because we've had very intelligent and articulate criticisms of how the developers handled dwarven and qunari content from a plethora of people - TEWR being the first and foremost that comes to mind when it comes to the dwarves. Again, you're simply more likely to run across those kind of posts in certain threads, or sometimes outside the BSN because some of those people left due to the excessive trolling that took place during the release of Inquisition (I left for about a long time because of it myself - maybe it's been a year or so).

 

Again, if you're honestly looking for insight into things like a hypothetical dwarven love interest, why not simply ask the dwarven support thread? You'll likely find more answers there than you are in a thread full of people who played as Lavellan. There are a lot of great people who enjoy the dwarves in the same capacity that some of us enjoy the Dalish or the Andrastian elves.

 

Hmm. I admit I don't go out into the BSN very much because my experience with it has not been fantastic. But I'm also kind of tired of arguing over what was supposed to just be a random side thought.

[LobselVith8]

 

So you think it's uneven story-telling? That's fine. That's a criticism with merit. You wouldn't be the first to say that Dragon Age rather suddenly changed tunes between games.

 

But this does sort of contradict your earlier point about the Dalish not getting enough attention.  Now it sounds more like you're saying "The Dalish got enough attention in Origins, and now they aren't." If you found their portrayal in Origins to be lacking, then we're right back where we started, and you can't really accuse BioWare of suddenly changing how they treat the Dalish when they've given them the same treatment since Origins. 

 

I'm not addressing the amount of attention, I'm addressing the lack of nuance and depth in their portrayals, which is why I cited the depictions of Clan Sabrae (I would include Keeper Hawen's clan as well). I've also included the lack of coverage for Andrastian elves as well, since I cited Briala, her rebellion, and Bioware's decision to focus on Andrastian humans in the Dales rather than the elves of the Dales.

 

And if you're main argument is that Origins was more interesting because it focused less on humans - well, maybe that criticism's momentary, then. DA2 was about the mage/templars, and sort of about the Qunari. Inquisition was about the turmoil in the Chantry. But these things are mostly contained to the games themselves. Given that we have Solas running around, perhaps a future sequel will shift focus to the elves instead.

 

I'll say that I don't think Bioware will focus it's attention on the elves or the dwarves; I've always conceded that I think that Bioware will focus on Andrastian humans.

 

Well, as Tea pointed out, that story's not about the Warden. It's about Alistair, and Morrigan, and the werewolves, and the Deep Roads, and the Fade, and Thedas as a whole. The Blight was just an excuse to go on a Fereldan Road Trip, and the Warden was just the vehicle the story got around in. They didn't really matter, after their Origin ends. And I'd hesitate to call them the main character in the same way Geralt or even Hawke are. 

 

And as I pointed out, the Warden is the main character of Origins. The events of the Blight don't change that the Warden was the main character of the story, nor does the more classic RPG approach Origins took (as opposed to a mostly predefined character like Hawke). The Warden is the one making decisions, deciding how to enact the treaties, making decisions about whether or not to save Redcliffe or who to support in Orzammar politics.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind. Not every story has to follow the same structure, and while I wish the Warden was a bit more central, the story still worked and still accomplished what it wanted to.  I'm just saying that Origins was never really about Surana or Mahariel or Sabrae. It wasn't really about Aeducan or Brosca or Amell either. Hence why the Origins are ultimately not very important.

 

The Warden is central - it isn't Alistair or Morrigan who decides whether to side with Zathrian's clan or the werewolves, it's the Warden; it isn't Alistair who decides whether Loghain should be spared or recruited into the Wardens, it's the Warden. It isn't Alistair or Morrigan who decide whether or not to save the village of Redcliffe, it's the Warden. The character is dealing with the events of the Fifth Blight and making decisions about how to deal with it.

 

Hmm. I admit I don't go out into the BSN very much because my experience with it has not been fantastic. But I'm also kind of tired of arguing over what was supposed to just be a random side thought.

 

Fair enough.

[Ellawynn]

I'm not addressing the amount of attention, I'm addressing the lack of nuance and depth in their portrayals, which is why I cited the depictions of Clan Sabrae (I would include Keeper Hawen's clan as well). I've also included the lack of coverage for Andrastian elves as well, since I cited Briala, her rebellion, and Bioware's decision to focus on Andrastian humans in the Dales rather than the elves of the Dales.

 

 

When I say "attention," assume I mean nuance and depth. I already explained how they're basically equal. 

 

 

 

 

And as I pointed out, the Warden is the main character of Origins. The events of the Blight don't change that the Warden was the main character of the story, nor does the more classic RPG approach Origins took (as opposed to a mostly predefined character like Hawke). The Warden is the one making decisions, deciding how to enact the treaties, making decisions about whether or not to save Redcliffe or who to support in Orzammar politics.

 

The Warden is central - it isn't Alistair or Morrigan who decides whether to side with Zathrian's clan or the werewolves, it's the Warden; it isn't Alistair who decides whether Loghain should be spared or recruited into the Wardens, it's the Warden. It isn't Alistair or Morrigan who decide whether or not to save the village of Redcliffe, it's the Warden. The character is dealing with the events of the Fifth Blight and making decisions about how to deal with it.

 

 

I think we mean different things when we say "main character." You seem to mean the person that the player controls. I mean the person (Or persons,) that get the most emphasis and centrality, the most development. To me, that's not the Warden (Unless you headcanon some complex story for them that ties into the themes and conflicts of the main quests, but that's not part of the story proper.) Those are the characters with overarching development and stories. Those are the cultures and factions the game encourages you to explore. That's the world and lore that spins on without you.

 

The Warden themself doesn't really get this. There are so many permutations of "The Warden" that giving them a truly personalized story is impossible. But without one, they can't really be the emphasis of the story. They're more just a witness to it.

 

But again, not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a different way of telling a story. And you're definition of a main character isn't wrong, either. It's just not mine.

[LobselVith8]

Yes - HAWKE was envisioned as 'human only'; but Hawke was created ONLY after they figured that they can't have multiple races due to limited development time. At the point Hawke was created, everything about them was human, because that was the only thing they could focus on.

 

When Dragon Age II was announced as 'human only', the developers justified it by saying that they wanted to tell a more 'personal story' that couldn't be done with multiple races (which is why some of us criticized how Hawke didn't need to be human in the story after Dragon Age II was released despite what they claimed).

 

Also - not sure how Schumacher bringing up issues in trying to incorporate racial options has anything to do with their lack or not? Explaining the issues with incorporating multiple races is a different thing from not incorporating them.

 

Due to the fact that racial options were added after the numerous complaints about 'human only' Inquisitor and the developers being given an additional year to incorporate them into the game since it was explained that Inquisition was created with different human backgrounds in mind for the Inquisitor.

 

In what possible way DAI focuses merely on "inanimate things" and "moments in time"? Or are you saying that Mythal, Solas - two frikking elvhen gods, who obviously have plans for the world - are 'inanimate objects'? Is Abelas and Sentinels an inanimate object? Are sentinel-like elves who attack from Tirashan inanimate objects? What about the rest of Evanuris - trapped somewhere, but likely still a threat to the world? What about revelations in Trespasser? And how do things like missions in Dirthamen's temple or Sulevin Blade or any other elven places we visited don't give us insight into ancient elvhen history, that eventually informs us about both how the ancient Elvenhan looked like and what the Dalish took from it?

 

We hear about Mythal, we never meet her. We hear about the Evanuris (to the point where all that we hear about them is heresay from one of their enemies), we never meet them. As I said, "moments in time", because we're hearing about these people we never actually meet. And before you mention it, Flemeth (Asha'bellanar) is a human abomination.

 

You're also comparing the relatively brief period we speak with Abelas in comparison to the numerous times we get in-depth exploration into the views of a multitude of Andrastian humans. And we don't get to know the Sentinels who work alongside Abelas.

 

My issues were addressed as the lack of coverage for the Andrastian and Dalish elves in a place like the Dales, where the elves are cited as being the majority of the population in TME, and with Asunder noting that humans are leaving en mass, and with Dragon Age II indicating that the clans are supposed to be meeting outside Halamshiral; instead, it's simply another human-centric region, like Ferelden and Orlais. That's one of the criticisms I made about Inquisition.

 

And YES - we do get to understand Briala. She has a whole book dedicated to her. Dragon Age is more than just games, by design.

 

Inquisition, as I already explained, marginalized Briala's story (and whitewashed her as well), and barely mentioned the massacre of thousands of elves in Halamshiral (some even mentioned that they didn't know about Halamshiral until they read comments about TME).

 

Like... at this point I'm not sure what you're asking for them to do. It seems you want it specifically to focus on Dalish more.... and why?

 

I didn't realize Briala was Dalish. I didn't realize the Andrastian elves of the Dales were Dalish, either.

 

We know pretty much everything about them there is to know, be it through their inclusion in DAO, DA2, auxillary materials or the Dalish Inquisitor themselves. We know enough about them to identify them, we know enough about their culture and beliefs and how DAI undermined them (and before you say that the whole undermining is the issue - the same thing happened to Andrastians with whole revelations about orb and Veil and Dwarves in Descent with revelations about Titans).

 

It would only be comparable if they said the Maker wasn't real, so it isn't. I'd also address how the narrative had us hear how the Andrastians could still be right about the involvement of the Maker with the Inquisitor while the narrative acted as if the Dalish got everything wrong, despite knowing about the immortality of the ancient elves, Arlathan, the ancient elves wielding magic, the existence of the Creators, the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, and Fen'Harel trapping the Creators. Again, it's an issue of tone, and how unbalanced their handling of elven story elements are in comparison to how they handle Andrastian story elements.

 

Even Jaws of Hakkon seemed to treat Drakon like he was this perfect person, without any focus on conquering his neighboring city-states, forcing people to convert to his religion, or killing thousands of people who followed certain faiths (like the peaceful Daughters of Song). Instead, it took another hostile approach to the elves of the Dales through Ameridan's dialogue; there was no balance.

 

There's just not much there left to be focused on that could provide much to the story, aside maybe from some personal stories. There's just no reason to focus on the Dalish more than they are now, especially that they're merely a small subset of elves - and the elves most definitely came to focus in last game, and especially in last DLC, with it suggesting that there's going to be even more in the future.

 

As I said, focusing on elven artifacts and points in history isn't the same as focusing on actual elves.

[CapricornSun]

Art post.

 

Concept!Solas by nipuni.

Spoiler

Source: http://nipuni.tumblr...uris-pass-it-on

 

A nice, peaceful artwork of Lavellan napping(?) on Solas' lap. 

Spoiler

Source: http://anafigreen.tu...ou-my-remedy-if

 

Adorable Solas and Lavellan. 

Spoiler

Source: http://mega--byte.tu...sihaofskyhold-3

 

Solas and Lavellan dancing at Halamshiral.

Spoiler

Source: https://geekyblackch...g-dance-with-me

[Gervaise]

Er, small point, but Briala isn't Dalish, neither are the Andrastrian elves of the Dales.    Just because elves are living in the present day Dales that doesn't make them Dalish.   Briala and the elves who were burned in Halamshiral were City Elves, who the clan in Masked Empire wouldn't even acknowledge as their people or feel inclined to help which was Briala's main gripe against them.    I do agree that DAI seemed to assume that everyone playing the game would have read Masked Empire, since they gave so little information on just why Briala was so upset with Celene.   Since I had read the book, this was one occasion when I role played it that my elf Inquisitor had made their own enquiries about what happened in the uprising, since he had heard rumours about it among the people at Skyhold.   It also made it easier to explain why my lad would just stand by and let Florianne knife Celene: it was pay back for all the elven children who she burnt in Halamshiral.  

 

I find it interesting how Solas really seems to get turned on by the intrigues of the Orlesian court; just like old times.   It seems there must have been a time when he found the antics of the Evanuris equally enjoyable.   After all, he admits he only felt compelled to move against the god kings after they killed Mythal but it seems he was content to stand by and watch previously and even actively assist one of them.

[Xilizhra]

I do agree that DAI seemed to assume that everyone playing the game would have read Masked Empire, since they gave so little information on just why Briala was so upset with Celene.   Since I had read the book, this was one occasion when I role played it that my elf Inquisitor had made their own enquiries about what happened in the uprising, since he had heard rumours about it among the people at Skyhold.   It also made it easier to explain why my lad would just stand by and let Florianne knife Celene: it was pay back for all the elven children who she burnt in Halamshiral. 

I disagree; I think they were trying to sweep TME under the rug, knowing that they'd gone too far with it regarding Celene/Briala.

[Ellawynn]

I disagree; I think they were trying to sweep TME under the rug, knowing that they'd gone too far with it regarding Celene/Briala.

 

I agree with him. Wicked Hearts relied on TME to the point where people who didn't read it were nearly hopelessly lost. They most certainly weren't trying to ignore it - the entire Civil War subplot is one that, unless you've read TME, seems to come out of nowhere.

 

Maybe they were trying to sweep that particular aspect of Celene/Briala under the rug. But TME as a whole? If anything, Inquisition had the opposite problem of relying too much on TME.

[LobselVith8]

I agree with him.

 

Xil is a woman, so you mean her (all we have are avatars on here so it's easy to understand how things like this happen).

[Ellawynn]

Xil is a woman, so you mean her (all we have are avatars on here so it's easy to understand how things like this happen).

 

No, I meant Gervaise. Admittedly Gervaise might be a woman, I don't know. 

 

Why would I say I agree with Xil and then proceed to completely contradict everything she said?

[Xilizhra]

I agree with him. Wicked Hearts relied on TME to the point where people who didn't read it were nearly hopelessly lost. They most certainly weren't trying to ignore it - the entire Civil War subplot is one that, unless you've read TME, seems to come out of nowhere.

 

Maybe they were trying to sweep that particular aspect of Celene/Briala under the rug. But TME as a whole? If anything, Inquisition had the opposite problem of relying too much on TME.

Well, the civil war was a pointless waste of time anyway, so I can't fathom what they were thinking there. But trying to sweep Celene/Briala under the rug, definitely.

[Qun00]

I was just thinking... maybe it would be good to play an elven Inquisitor that eventually comes to worship both the elven gods and the Maker, inspired by Ameridan's example.

That way, Lavellan fits both the Andrastian and elven centered parts of the main story.

[Xilizhra]

I was just thinking... maybe it would be good to play an elven Inquisitor that eventually comes to worship both the elven gods and the Maker, inspired by Ameridan's example.

That way, Lavellan fits both the Andrastian and elven centered parts of the main story.

I really don't think that would work. Ameridan's in a level 21 minimum zone, so by the time you get there, the parts of the game having to do with Andrastian faith itself will almost certainly be over. Additionally, Inquisition never gives any reason to believe in the Maker.

[Qun00]

Well, you could always look at it like Varric does. The Inquisitor goes through too much crazy **** for her to survive it without the aid of a higher power.

[Xilizhra]

Well, you could always look at it like Varric does. The Inquisitor goes through too much crazy **** for her to survive it without the aid of a higher power.

Then the question is "which higher power?" It could be any number, such as, well, the Creators.

[midnight tea]

Then the question is "which higher power?" It could be any number, such as, well, the Creators.

 

 

It could as well be the Maker. Question is "which Maker" or "has the Chantry got anything right" (which, given the suggestions that the whole Sun thing may have connection to some sort of existing power, could mean many things). The thing about religion and gods is that many people, including those technically believing in same god, ultimately can have very different ideas of what that god could be. For example Giselle's Maker may be completely different to that of some other high cleric - or Dorian's Maker.

[ladyiolanthe]

It could as well be the Maker. Question is "which Maker" or "has the Chantry got anything right" (which, given the suggestions that the whole Sun thing may have connection to some sort of existing power, could mean many things). The thing about religion and gods is that many people, including those technically believing in same god, ultimately can have very different ideas of what that god could be. For example Giselle's Maker may be completely different to that of some other high cleric - or Dorian's Maker.

 

I kind of hope that in DA4 there will be a weird splinter sect of Andrastians who decide that Solas is the Maker, if word gets out that he's the one who put up the Veil. I imagine Solas might find that awkward, but would use them cheerfully.

[LobselVith8]

Then the question is "which higher power?" It could be any number, such as, well, the Creators.

 

True. If the character thought any high power was involved, I imagine Lavellan could easily see the situation as a result of the elven gods, rather than the god worshipped by the Andrastians; the protagonist is Dalish, after all, and has vallaslin representing one of the Creators.

 

Giselle already tries to convince the protagonist that it's the Maker's doing, and those scenes remind me of Anders continually trying to convince Merrill that the Chantry's religious teachings are right (and her shutting him down every time), and how Cassandra suggests to Lavellan that he (or she) could add her god to the pantheon he (or she) already follows as if it's no big deal.

[midnight tea]

I kind of hope that in DA4 there will be a weird splinter sect of Andrastians who decide that Solas is the Maker, if word gets out that he's the one who put up the Veil. I imagine Solas might find that awkward, but would use them cheerfully.

 

If we had a splinter group in DAI that worshiped the Breach, I can't see how such sect wouldn't emerge... *especially* that Solas did indeed form the Veil; something Andrastians believed was Maker's creation.

[DreamerM]

Giselle already tries to convince the protagonist that it's the Maker's doing, and those scenes remind me of Anders continually trying to convince Merrill that the Chantry's religious teachings are right (and her shutting him down every time), and how Cassandra suggests to Lavellan that he (or she) could add her god to the pantheon he (or she) already follows as if it's no big deal.

Well to be fair, Solas also talks about the possibility of a Maker in his early banter with Cassandra. When she asks him, "YOU believe in the Maker?!" he replies, "I am always open to new ideas." So... hey, if a god from the pantheon is open to adding a new god to HIS belief system, then I guess maybe Levellan can too.

Not that he's anything like an Andrastian, but he seems open to the possibility of a God-like creator being existing. It doesn't conflict with what he knows of the world.

Patrick Weekes seems to be an agnostic, and I saw an interview where he said he didn't ever want to answer the Maker question fully. I think that's the best way to handle the issue. Religion and faith plays a huge role in the lives of the inhabitants of Thedas, sort of like how it plays a huge role in our human lives here on Earth, but when you conclusively say "God exists/God does not exist" you undercut the ambiguity that everyone alive just has to deal with. What faith inspires in people is much more relevant then the literal truth.

[LobselVith8]

Well to be fair, Solas also talks about the possibility of a Maker in his early banter with Cassandra. When she asks him, "YOU believe in the Maker?!" he replies, "I am always open to new ideas." So... hey, if a god from the pantheon is open to adding a new god to HIS belief system, then I guess maybe Levellan can too.

 

Anything is possible, and the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of each Inquisitor will inevitably be up to the player to decide on. Speaking only for myself, if I had to fight every day of my life just for the right to follow my own religion because it was outlawed, I wouldn't convert to the Andrastian faith or follow any belief involving the Maker.

[DreamerM]

Anything is possible, and the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of each Inquisitor will inevitably be up to the player to decide on. Speaking only for myself, if I had to fight every day of my life just for the right to follow my own religion because it was outlawed, I wouldn't convert to the Andrastian faith or follow any belief involving the Maker.

I don't think conversion is necessary to say something like, "well, I can't prove it's NOT real." I play my Levellan as cautious but deeply curious, and the only thing she really knows about gods and creators and magic and spirits is that there's a shitton that nobody knows. So who is to say which faith is more true? The Dalish fight to preserve their culture, and their religion is just one aspect of that. She has an encyclopedic knowledge of her gods (she was training to be Keeper, after all, before all this happened), but if you asked her if she thought they literally existed, she'd say something vague about how maybe, maybe not, but the stories are important tools for understanding how the ancient Elves viewed the world.

[Sifr]

Post-Trespasser, I see my Lavellan's view on faith as being somewhat shattered;

 

"Whatever I believe, I know they exist... and that they are dangerous. Even if Solas was lying and the Evanuris are Gods, they cannot expect the worship they might have received from me so easily once, nor do they get to demand my obedience and unconditional devotion anymore. Never again shall we submit."

[ladyiolanthe]

^ My Lavellan had given up on gods by the battle with Corypheus. She certainly doesn't think of Solas as a god! A very powerful mage, yes. But not a god. 

[NightSymphony]

Beautiful Solavellan art

 

Spoiler

http://gaalagaalko.d...ellan-619594706