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[DreamerM]

Well, the state of our civilization so far has proven that the "strife", so far, was worth it. It's only after we began accepting the value of rationalism, edcation and scientific inquiry (actual scientific inquiry, not some weird caricatures of it people tried to pass as 'science' at one point or another) over religious beliefs that we began progressing in fast pace, both as civilization and as a society.

I'm not saying that's not the case. I'm saying it illustrates the problem when you are dealing with religion, even the religion of a fictional world vs the literal truth. And this is why Bioware would be on dangerous ground if they were ever to flat-out prove "There is no Maker." They set up a world where religion plays a powerful role in the lives of it's people, both for good and ill, and everything from the laws to the warfare to the circle/Templar set-up is influenced in ways great or small by the Chantry. It would cause massive chaos.

[Melbella]

Indeed. Solas in infuriating at the ToM. I usually don't even take him unless he's my romance. He'll go on and on about how wrong Morrigan is about everything, but won't say a peep as to why, or what the "real truth" is. Not to mention afterwards, when he demands to know what you will do with the Well, even if Morrigan is one who drank. Uh, how about nothing since I don't actually control the power? But that's not an option in the response wheel. The devs really borked that whole scenario in more ways than one.

 

I can imagine some hostility at the Winter Palace from the servant Elves simply because Lavellan is Dalish. They accept and worship the Maker, and for a Dalish Elf to occupy the same position as the nobles they serve would be irritating to anyone. The nobles aren't very happy about it either, ironically calling you a savage while they dance in blood, pretending not to see it.

 

The elves at the Winter Palace are obnoxiously rude to every Inquisitor. Another hint that they aren't actually servants but Briala's spies.

[Qun00]

I'm not saying that's not the case. I'm saying it illustrates the problem when you are dealing with religion, even the religion of a fictional world vs the literal truth. And this is why Bioware would be on dangerous ground if they were ever to flat-out prove "There is no Maker." They set up a world where religion plays a powerful role in the lives of it's people, both for good and ill, and everything from the laws to the warfare to the circle/Templar set-up is influenced in ways great or small by the Chantry. It would cause massive chaos.

That would've been avoided by putting some creativity into this fictional religion instead of copy and pasting it from Christianism.

Indeed. Solas in infuriating at the ToM. I usually don't even take him unless he's my romance. He'll go on and on about how wrong Morrigan is about everything, but won't say a peep as to why, or what the "real truth" is.

Why shouldn't he? Morrigan IS wrong.

[midnight tea]

I'm not saying that's not the case. I'm saying it illustrates the problem when you are dealing with religion, even the religion of a fictional world vs the literal truth. And this is why Bioware would be on dangerous ground if they were ever to flat-out prove "There is no Maker." They set up a world where religion plays a powerful role in the lives of it's people, both for good and ill, and everything from the laws to the warfare to the circle/Templar set-up is influenced in ways great or small by the Chantry. It would cause massive chaos.

 

True - but Thedas is facing massive chaos either way. Not only one of the elements of the world, that the inhabitants of modern Thedas consider an integral part of it, turned out to NOT have been created by the Maker, but a person at one point considered an elvhen deity. Not only that: it turns out that the Fade and spirits were once part of the world - and we don't even know what role the Titans and Stone play in it, other than we know that they can create massive eartquakes just by snorking. Basically... their whole world is a lie, either literally or figuratively.

 

That in itself - aside from whatever Solas is planning - is pretty much guaranteed to cause chaos and subsequent change.

[midnight tea]

Indeed. Solas in infuriating at the ToM. I usually don't even take him unless he's my romance. He'll go on and on about how wrong Morrigan is about everything, but won't say a peep as to why, or what the "real truth" is. Not to mention afterwards, when he demands to know what you will do with the Well, even if Morrigan is one who drank. Uh, how about nothing since I don't actually control the power? But that's not an option in the response wheel. The devs really borked that whole scenario in more ways than one.

 

Solas probably doesn't say much about what's teh "real truth" for the same reason he doesn't say why he's Fen'Harel. Either it'll make him look like a madman and nobody would believe him, or it'd cause havoc.

 

Vivienne: I confess, Solas, I expected you to be back at the Temple of Mythal.

Vivienne: Some powerful magic yet remains there... if it can be trusted.

Solas: For once, we agree. Many relics were lost for good reason.

Vivienne: You explore the Fade to ferret out such secrets, do you not?

Solas: When I awaken each morning, all I have with me are those secrets.

Solas: The power at the Temple of Mythal is tangible, potent... and far too easy to misuse.

Vivienne: We are not so different after all, my dear apostate. We both believe magic must be limited safely.

Solas: Only a fool would ignore such a stark reminder of the destruction of an empire.

Solas: We may disagree on many things, Enchanter. But neither of us is a fool.

Vivienne: You are too kind.

 

Obviously there's more left in ToM, no matter who drinks from the Well.

 

 

The elves at the Winter Palace are obnoxiously rude to every Inquisitor. Another hint that they aren't actually servants but Briala's spies.

 

They're not. They actually warn elf Quizzy.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not saying that's not the case. I'm saying it illustrates the problem when you are dealing with religion, even the religion of a fictional world vs the literal truth. And this is why Bioware would be on dangerous ground if they were ever to flat-out prove "There is no Maker." They set up a world where religion plays a powerful role in the lives of it's people, both for good and ill, and everything from the laws to the warfare to the circle/Templar set-up is influenced in ways great or small by the Chantry. It would cause massive chaos.

Bioware already did this with the faith of the Dalish, so I see no reason for the Andrastians to be exempt.

[Qun00]

Bioware already did this with the faith of the Dalish, so I see no reason for the Andrastians to be exempt.

They're confirmed to be real. Meanwhile, the "Herald of Andraste" was actually saved by a spirit.

[LobselVith8]

They're confirmed to be real. Meanwhile, the "Herald of Andraste" was actually saved by a spirit.

Solas says they aren't gods and were powerful mages, and the narrative still has Giselle saying that the Maker could have guided your hand.

I don't see why the Andrastian faith deserves special treatment when they've shown that they're willing to invalidate a religion already.

[midnight tea]

Solas says they aren't gods and were powerful mages, and the narrative still has Giselle saying that the Maker could have guided your hand.

I don't see why the Andrastian faith deserves special treatment when they've shown that they're willing to invalidate a religion already.

 

"Invalidate"? That's not a word I'd use. Obviously it doesn't invalidate faith like Giselle's.

[Elessara]

Solas says they aren't gods and were powerful mages, and the narrative still has Giselle saying that the Maker could have guided your hand.

I don't see why the Andrastian faith deserves special treatment when they've shown that they're willing to invalidate a religion already.

 

Honestly, I fail to see why if they did it to one in-game religion they *must* to the same to another.  And I don't even like the Chantry/Andrastianism.  Also, as much as I enjoy knowing the truth about things in game, a little mystery isn't a bad thing.  But the devs have already started to take apart the religion as one of the big things attributed to the Maker (the Veil) was not actually created by him.

[Melbella]

Why shouldn't he? Morrigan IS wrong.

 
Morrigan is not wrong....she is simply repeating, truthfully, what the legends say. She makes no claim to their level of truthfulness and, often, admits they may not be true. We don't know, and Solas is no help at all. He just says she's wrong but doesn't say why, even if you ask him.
 
 

Solas probably doesn't say much about what's teh "real truth" for the same reason he doesn't say why he's Fen'Harel. Either it'll make him look like a madman and nobody would believe him, or it'd cause havoc.

Of course, which it why it's so annoying. He can't explain what he means because it would give away all his lies.

 

 

They're not. They actually warn elf Quizzy.

 

They're not what? Not rude? Yes, they are. The first two you come across in the trophy room tell you, rather abruptly, to go away and leave them alone. There are others who will talk to you though.

[LobselVith8]

Honestly, I fail to see why if they did it to one in-game religion they *must* to the same to another. And I don't even like the Chantry/Andrastianism. Also, as much as I enjoy knowing the truth about things in game, a little mystery isn't a bad thing. But the devs have already started to take apart the religion as one of the big things attributed to the Maker (the Veil) was not actually created by him.

I'm saying I don't see why it has to be off-limits since they have already shown a willingness to dismantle one religion so far. There's no reason to treat it like it's more special than the other religions of Thedas. If they aren't shying away from saying that the elven religion is incorrect, then I don't see why they should treat the Andrastian faith any differently. There's no reason they can't show us what the truth is behind the legends and the teachings.

[Elessara]

 
Morrigan is not wrong....she is simply repeating, truthfully, what the legends say. She makes no claim to their level of truthfulness and, often, admits they may not be true. We don't know, and Solas is no help at all. He just says she's wrong but doesn't say why, even if you ask him.
 

 

Actually this point ... the scene Qun00 is referring to is where Morrigan is completely surprised there's a statue of Fen'Harel at all because, as she says, having one there is as sacrilegious as painting Andraste naked in a Chantry.  She actually believes that statue shouldn't be there at all which is what Solas objects to.  And yes, it is annoying that he doesn't provide more detail.

[Elessara]

I'm saying I don't see why it has to be off-limits since they have already shown a willingness to dismantle one religion so far. There's no reason to treat it like it's more special than the other religions of Thedas. If they aren't shying away from saying that the elven religion is incorrect, then I don't see why they should treat the Andrastian faith any differently. There's no reason they can't show us what the truth is behind the legends and the teachings.

 

But why should they?  Maybe it's not so much that Andrastianism is "off limits" as that's just not the way the story is going.  And how would they even go about doing that?  Even the spirits don't know one way or the other.  Some spirits believe because people believe other spirits have no idea.The Maker is entirely too much like the God people believe in IRL ... you (not you specifically, but colloquially) try proving that God does or does not exist.  Unless someone has a Babelfish handy.

[LobselVith8]

But why should they? Maybe it's not so much that Andrastianism is "off limits" as that's just not the way the story is going. And how would they even go about doing that? Even the spirits don't know one way or the other. Some spirits believe because people believe other spirits have no idea.The Maker is entirely too much like the God people believe in IRL ... you (not you specifically, but colloquially) try proving that God does or does not exist. Unless someone has a Babelfish handy.

It comes across as hypocritical to me to put one religion above another. And the story can explore it in the same way Solas is used to explore the story behind the Creators.

[Qun00]

Morrigan is not wrong....she is simply repeating, truthfully, what the legends say. She makes no claim to their level of truthfulness and, often, admits they may not be true. We don't know, and Solas is no help at all. He just says she's wrong but doesn't say why, even if you ask him.

Solas is an ancient elf, so this is kinda personal for him. It takes a lot of restraint to listen to someone spouting several misconceptions about your people and say nothing.

But of course, considering that he can't talk too much for the sake of his disguise, it would be better not to engage in such debates at all.

[Elessara]

It comes across as hypocritical to me to put one religion above another. And the story can explore it in the same way Solas is used to explore the story behind the Creators.

 

Then maybe look at it this way.  The devs aren't denying that the Maker exists but they're not confirming it either.  I just don't see this as putting one religion "above" another.  They're not saying, "Haha the elven gods aren't really gods you suckers!  But the Maker is awesome and is totally real!"  They're saying, "The elven gods exist but probably aren't gods and no one still knows if the Maker actually exists or not."

 

The Evanuris may not be technically gods but they are still incredibly powerful and, if Mythal is any example to go by, immortal.  But that's another question raised by the game ... what IS a god?  Professor Kenric even says maybe they need to have a look at what they define a god to be.  And the Avvar seem to have no problem knowing that their gods are spirits that can die.

 

The Evanuris strike me as more of a D&D like god (incredibly powerful beings people know exist but not omnipotent/omniscient) than the typical Christian vision of God (which is what the Maker supposedly is).

[LobselVith8]

Then maybe look at it this way.  The devs aren't denying that the Maker exists but they're not confirming it either.  I just don't see this as putting one religion "above" another.  They're not saying, "Haha the elven gods aren't really gods you suckers!  But the Maker is awesome and is totally real!"  They're saying, "The elven gods exist but probably aren't gods and no one still knows if the Maker actually exists or not."

 

By virtue of treating one as though it was sacrosanct and invalidating the other by saying that the gods worshipped by the People weren't actually gods.

 

The Evanuris may not be technically gods but they are still incredibly powerful and, if Mythal is any example to go by, immortal.  But that's another question raised by the game ... what IS a god?  Professor Kenric even says maybe they need to have a look at what they define a god to be.  And the Avvar seem to have no problem knowing that their gods are spirits that can die.

 

Solas said they weren't gods and they're apparent villainous (given what he has told us), perhaps they're even as one-dimensional as the Dalish in TME. And I'm not going to conflate the Dalish with the Avvar; they're two different groups of people.

[Elessara]

By virtue of treating one as though it was sacrosanct and invalidating the other by saying that the gods worshipped by the People weren't actually gods.

 

 

Solas said they weren't gods and they're apparent villainous (given what he has told us), perhaps they're even as one-dimensional as the Dalish in TME. And I'm not going to conflate the Dalish with the Avvar; they're two different groups of people.

 

But they're not treating Andrastianism as if it's "sacrosanct".  They're just treating it differently.  Different people, different cultures, different ideologies.  Different does not mean better or worse.  You won't conflate the Avvar with the Dalish because they are two different groups of people, why are you doing it with the Dalish and the Andrastians?

 

The elves will have answers (finally) about their past and their gods.  Whether or not they choose to accept them is another thing.  The Andrastians may *never* get answers - other than oh yeah, the Maker wasn't the one who created the Veil, which may lead them to doubt and possibly a crisis of faith.  Personally, I would choose certainty (even if it's not something I particularly like hearing) over complete uncertainty.

[LobselVith8]

But they're not treating Andrastianism as if it's "sacrosanct".  They're just treating it differently.  Different people, different cultures, different ideologies.  Different does not mean better or worse.

 

One won't be touched, while the other is invalidated. That's a rather stark difference.

 

You won't conflate the Avvar with the Dalish because they are two different groups of people, why are you doing it with the Dalish and the Andrastians?

 

Because one is an issue of how the Avvar view their gods in comparison to how the Dalish view the Creators, and the other is a matter of how the developers handle the story.

 

The elves will have answers (finally) about their past and their gods.  Whether or not they choose to accept them is another thing.  The Andrastians may *never* get answers - other than oh yeah, the Maker wasn't the one who created the Veil, which may lead them to doubt and possibly a crisis of faith.  Personally, I would choose certainty (even if it's not something I particularly like hearing) over complete uncertainty.

 

Considering that those answers invalidate their religion, it's not really joyous news, now, is it? And with Solas' actions potentially leading to the reset button for the Andrastian and Dalish elves, any potential progress that may have been made for them might get reset to explain why anyone would follow Solas. I see it being rather bleak.

[Ellawynn]

That would've been avoided by putting some creativity into this fictional religion instead of copy and pasting it from Christianism.

 

Ah yes, Christianism. My favorite of the Barbie-ham-ic faiths, Christianism.

 

I'm saying I don't see why it has to be off-limits since they have already shown a willingness to dismantle one religion so far. There's no reason to treat it like it's more special than the other religions of Thedas. If they aren't shying away from saying that the elven religion is incorrect, then I don't see why they should treat the Andrastian faith any differently. There's no reason they can't show us what the truth is behind the legends and the teachings.

 

Because, as Qun points out, Andrastianism is basically a one-to-one parallel for Christianity. As such, it has more significant impact on a modern Western audience. I mean, even if you don't believe, you can't really escape Christianity. It's got it's fingerprints all over Western culture, and anyone born into a Western country is going to be informed of it's existence and basic ideas just by simple social osmosis. 

 

Any commentary on Andrastianism will be taken as a commentary on Christianity, if not religion in general, because it's such an obvious copy-cat. The Dalish faith doesn't have that. It's not an obvious carry-over of any religion, much less one with such a massive cultural shadow.  Any commentary they try to make with it is inevitably going to have less impact, because we just don't have any parallels. 

 

To be clear, I'm not saying that BioWare's being careful with Andrastianism because they don't want to offend the Christians in the audience (If there are any Christians in the audience, I imagine they've got plenty of other stuff to be offended by.) Just that Andrastianism is far more powerful tool for commentary, and if the commentary they're trying to make is the ambiguity of religion, then outright disproving (or proving, for that matter.) Andrastianism is off the table. 

 

I mean, honestly? One of the promotional images for Inquisition was a straight-up copy of The Last Supper, to the point of including Judas. Are you really surprised that the game emphasized Not-Christianity above other religions in the setting?

[Qun00]

Ah yes, Christianism. My favorite of the Barbie-ham-ic faiths, Christianism.


Because, as Qun points out, Andrastianism is basically a one-to-one parallel for Christianity. As such, it has more significant impact on a modern Western audience. I mean, even if you don't believe, you can't really escape Christianity. It's got it's fingerprints all over Western culture, and anyone born into a Western country is going to be informed of it's existence and basic ideas just by simple social osmosis.

Any commentary on Andrastianism will be taken as a commentary on Christianity, if not religion in general, because it's such an obvious copy-cat. The Dalish faith doesn't have that. It's not an obvious carry-over of any religion, much less one with such a massive cultural shadow. Any commentary they try to make with it is inevitably going to have less impact, because we just don't have any parallels.

To be clear, I'm not saying that BioWare's being careful with Andrastianism because they don't want to offend the Christians in the audience (If there are any Christians in the audience, I imagine they've got plenty of other stuff to be offended by.) Just that Andrastianism is far more powerful tool for commentary, and if the commentary they're trying to make is the ambiguity of religion, then outright disproving (or proving, for that matter.) Andrastianism is off the table.

I mean, honestly? One of the promotional images for Inquisition was a straight-up copy of The Last Supper, to the point of including Judas. Are you really surprised that the game emphasized Not-Christianity above other religions in the setting?

Heck, they didn't even bother giving Andrastianism's god an original name.

You see it in those old cliché lines like "Are you ready to meet your Maker?" and it simply is one of the words usually associated with God.

[LobselVith8]

Because, as Qun points out, Andrastianism is basically a one-to-one parallel for Christianity. As such, it has more significant impact on a modern Western audience. I mean, even if you don't believe, you can't really escape Christianity. It's got it's fingerprints all over Western culture, and anyone born into a Western country is going to be informed of it's existence and basic ideas just by simple social osmosis.

The Chantry is a fictional religion in a fictional setting. The developers aren't beholden to keep away from addressing it simply because it has some parallels.

Any commentary on Andrastianism will be taken as a commentary on Christianity, if not religion in general, because it's such an obvious copy-cat.

Given the Andrastian faith is tied to views on mages, Circles of Magi, or the Chantry being involved in the control and distribution of lyrium, I'm not inclined to agree. It's a fictional religion with ties to significant issues that don't parallel our own.

The Dalish faith doesn't have that. It's not an obvious carry-over of any religion, much less one with such a massive cultural shadow. Any commentary they try to make with it is inevitably going to have less impact, because we just don't have any parallels.

That depends on the context. I'm pretty sure plenty of people can empathize more with a group of people struggling to maintain their identity, culture, and religion in the face of intolerance and imperialism than they can with the followers of the Andrastisn faith.

To be clear, I'm not saying that BioWare's being careful with Andrastianism because they don't want to offend the Christians in the audience (If there are any Christians in the audience, I imagine they've got plenty of other stuff to be offended by.) Just that Andrastianism is far more powerful tool for commentary, and if the commentary they're trying to make is the ambiguity of religion, then outright disproving (or proving, for that matter.) Andrastianism is off the table.

I mean, honestly? One of the promotional images for Inquisition was a straight-up copy of The Last Supper, to the point of including Judas. Are you really surprised that the game emphasized Not-Christianity above other religions in the setting?

So the Andrastian faith is untouchable because of developer favoritism towards a fictional religion...

[Addictress]

Sorry if someone already posted this but someone made an original song about Solavellan and it's amazing.

 

http://the-feral-lad...-not-at-max-wow

[Ellawynn]

The Chantry is a fictional religion in a fictional setting. The developers aren't beholden to keep away from addressing it simply because it has some parallels.
 

 

Of course they aren't forbidden. They just don't want to. I'm not a mind-reader, so I can't lay out their exact reasoning, but I imagine that's probably it. There's simply more power in leaving Andrastianism ambiguous than saying anything concrete one way or the other.

 

Given the Andrastian faith is tied to views on mages, Circles of Magi, or the Chantry being involved in the control and distribution of lyrium, I'm not inclined to agree. It's a fictional religion with ties to significant issues that don't parallel our own.

 

 

It's not a perfect parallel. But I think just about everyone can see that it's supposed to be Christianity. 

 

 

That depends on the context. I'm pretty sure plenty of people can empathize more with a group of people struggling to maintain their identity, culture, and religion in the face of intolerance and imperialism than they can with the followers of the Andrastisn faith.

 

 

I'm sure many do empathize and relate to the Dalish. But the Dalish faith and the Dalish themselves are separate things. Most players are relating to something different than the gods they believe in - unless Elgar'nan was is an ancient factual deity and no one deigned to tell me.
 

So the Andrastian faith is untouchable because of developer favoritism towards a fictional religion...

 

 

 

Pretty much. Developers are people. They play favorites. BioWare's not the first or last.