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[The Elder King]

As Merrill's codex explains: "The stories tell us that all elvhen once had the gift; but like so many things, it was lost. It's a Keeper's job to remember, to restore what we can.
"As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."
Merrill was moved over to the Sabrae Clan at a young age, but she didn't resent it; you also heard her talk about how wonderful magic was and that it was a gift - in companion banter, rather than with Hawke (which is also where her Dalish views were relegated to).
 

His addressed difficulties with the Dales preventing the expansion of his empire would suggest that it may be a bit more complicated than Ameridan said.

Merrill being fine isn't prof that every elf forced to leave their clan to join others as a FIrst/apprentice are fine with it, and not every dalish has to have the same opinion on magic.
Things might've certainly be more complicated, but it doesn't mean he just wanted to conquer the Dales, as you and Ghost thing. It's possible that the truth is in the middle.
On your post of Bioware turning the Creators in caricatures, other then he fact that it'd be best to wait and see, we don't know if they weren't supposed to be like that from the start of the series, and not something Bioware changed later on.

[LobselVith8]

And if anything she's an excellent portrayal of internalized racism (and instilled fear of magic) stemming from how she was treated by people she surrounded herself with... which is mostly humans and Andrastianism   And both in  her and Solas's case the point they're trying to make is that they don't want to be pigeonholed or expected to act certain way, be it by people from or out their presumed cultural circle. Which, if you ask me, is generally a good thing.

 

Which would be an argument in your favor if the story ever treated Sera's racism against elves and religious intolerance against Dalish in the main game as if it was a bad thing.

 

And Minaeve's story is not really that different from Wynne's story - and it's yet again a tragic tale of how fear of magic (humans Minaeve stumbled upon didn't help her; instead they've called for Templars to deal with her); which is a thing most definitely conditioned by Andrastian beliefs and Chantry only makes some of mages accept their gilded cage as the only relatively safe place for them in (Southern) Thedas. The point of her story is not as much that she's a rejected Dalish, but that the prejudice against magic is prevalent in the South and that Circle's grip on many mages is not much physical, as it's psychological.

 

The only point to Minaeve's story was to bash the Dalish, even though it contradicted previously established lore. Apparently, only Andrastians are allowed to have positive, mandatory portrayals at the forefront of the narrative. Creators forbid that the Dalish are actually allowed to be a positive alternative to the toxicity of the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

Saying that Abelas (or in fact Solas) is "badmouthing" the Dalish is very much a stretch. Like... what do you expect him to do, when they're NOT "his people" for one reason or another? And I'm not even talking about the whole magical-spirity theories we have about nature of elves/ancient elves we have here - just the fact that it's been *thousands* of years since Elvenhan fell, while both Abelas and Sentinels linger in a dead temple, pretty much frozen in time, loyal but alien,  frustrated and fatalistic.

 

It's an issue when there's no balance to the presentations. Yet another mandatory, anti-Dalish dialogue is problematic when the narrative is littered with characters who denigrate your culture, religion, and beliefs.

 

Like... at this point you sort of sound as if you wanted the story to confirm that almost everything the Dalish believed in is true. Which it IS... in a sense. So I fail to see what's the issue - unless it's negative because the elven culture doesn't happen to be a lost paradise or something? Or because the truth doesn't vindicate the Dalish and their generally isolationist and "true elven" ways?

 

Because it's incessantly negatively, repeatedly, at the forefront of the character exchanges that we have, and even in JoH, which completely ignores Drakon's invasions and mass murder to blame all the blame on the elves for not immediately trusting an imperialistic mass murdering conqueror?

 

I fail to see how Dalish being wrong about things from their past is supposed to be such a large move against them by BW, when the story makes it clear that pretty much everyone is wrong in one way or another.

 

I didn't realize that Giselle arguing that the Maker could still be involved in us getting the mark while the narrative saying that the Dalish were entirely wrong (even though they knew about Arlthan, the Creators, the designs of vallaslin, ect.) was an example of balanced storytelling from Bioware.

 

I suppose we have very, very different definitions of balanced storytelling - mine doesn't involve favoritism to Andrastian humans while persistently denigrating the Dalish.

[The Elder King]

I don't think JOH blames everything on the elves for the problems that lead to the Orlesians-Dales war. It just shown that Drakon might've not have the intention of conquering the Dales.
The fact that the Dalish didn't trust humans (and not just Drakon) at all was already established long before JOH. The faults of the elves and the Orlesians that lead to the conflict didn't change after Hakkon. Showing that Drakon has positive traits doesn't make Orlais better, expecially considering what happened after his death.

I don't see why Giselle thinking the Maker is involved is a positive thing. She's delusional and wrong, since the story clearly shown the Maker isn't involved at all.
Heck, Tresspasser isn't positive for Andrastians either. It shown that at least some parts of the lore about him is wrong, since he didn't create the Veil. The Evanuris are another thing that don't really go well with the Maker either. There are high chances that if a 'God' exists in DA isn't the Maker. The latter might've well be a distorted story of Solas, which would mean that humans have worshipped an elf. That's not exactly a pleasant theory for Andrastians or supporters of the Maker.

[Ellawynn]

Which would be an argument in your favor if the story ever treated Sera's racism against elves and religious intolerance against Dalish in the main game as if it was a bad thing.

 

 

Doesn't it? I certainly didn't receive it as a good thing, and given that Sera (Along with Vivienne) was one of the most negatively received companions, I don't think a lot of other people saw it as a good thing either.

 

I mean, doesn't Sera apologize for her intolerance in Trespasser if it made her break up with the Inquisitor?

[LobselVith8]

Merrill being fine isn't prof that every elf forced to leave their clan to join others as a FIrst/apprentice are fine with it, and not every dalish has to have the same opinion on magic.

 

I'd say Merrill's codex, Merrill's dialogue (including her referring to how any child with magical ability would be apprenticed to a Keeper), Ariane addressing they welcomed a Circle mage into her clan, Lanaya mentioning she trained against several contenders for the position of First, and Zathrian's clan having more than three mages would show that the 'three mage recton' isn't consistent with past lore, but that's just me.

 

There's a reason people call it a recton.

 

Things might've certainly be more complicated, but it doesn't mean he just wanted to conquer the Dales, as you and Ghost thing. It's possible that the truth is in the middle.

 

I'd say that Ameridan's dialogue to the human Inquisitor (about spreading the Chant "to the whole world") and his dialogue to the Vashoth Inquisitor (about Drakon expanding his empire "far") would lead me to be skeptical about Drakon's good intentions.

 

On your post of Bioware turning the Creators in caricatures, other then he fact that it'd be best to wait and see, we don't know if they weren't supposed to be like that from the start of the series, and not something Bioware changed later on.

 

I'm addressing what has been said so far (including by Solas) and what information we have been provided about them since Inquisition. All of it paints them in a villainous light, almost cartoonishly so. It's reminiscent of the one-dimensional Dalish elves we read about in TME who existed simply so that Weekes could criticize the Dalish by using one-dimensional caricatures rather than three-dimensional people.

 

Speaking of TME, it's a shame that a bigot like Gaspard, who funded scholars writing essays that read that elves are animals and that human/elven relations is bestiality (and presumably murdered an elf as part of his chevalier initiation rite) while Celene burned thousands of elven men, women, and children to death are still written as though they warrant being treated like by people - and even honorable in their way - while the Dalish are simply written to be degraded and disregarded entirely.

[The Elder King]

I'd say Merrill's codex, Merrill's dialogue (including her referring to how any child with magical ability would be apprenticed to a Keeper), Ariane addressing they welcomed a Circle mage into her clan, Lanaya mentioning she trained against several contenders for the position of First, and Zathrian's clan having more than three mages would show that the 'three mage recton' isn't consistent with past lore, but that's just me.
 
There's a reason people call it a recton.
 

 
I'd say that Ameridan's dialogue to the human Inquisitor (about spreading the Chant "to the whole world") and his dialogue to the Vashoth Inquisitor (about Drakon expanding his empire "far") would lead me to be skeptical about Drakon's good intentions.
 

 
I'm addressing what has been said so far (including by Solas) and what information we have been provided about them since Inquisition. All of it paints them in a villainous light, almost cartoonishly so. It's reminiscent of the one-dimensional Dalish elves we read about in TME who existed simply so that Weekes could criticize the Dalish by using one-dimensional caricatures rather than three-dimensional people.
 
Speaking of TME, it's a shame that a bigot like Gaspard, who funded scholars writing essays that read that elves are animals and that human/elven relations is bestiality (and presumably murdered an elf as part of his chevalier initiation rite) while Celene burned thousands of elven men, women, and children to death are still written as though they warrant being treated like by people - and even honorable in their way - while the Dalish are simply written to be degraded and disregarded entirely.

1)I was referring to the fact that elves might not find pleasant being transferred to other clans for being First/apprentices, not that it wasn't a retcon. Though training with several elven mage children doesn't mean that they don't send them to other clans after the FIrst being picked.
I don't recall Zathrian's clan having more then three mages in DAO, but it's been a while since I played. Of are you referring to the training Lanaya was talking about?

2)Spreading to the whole world, or far away, doesn't mean that he conquered very part of the world. And I never said Drakon didn't have expansionistic projects. Just that he might've not wanted to conquer the Dales.

3)I was simply referring to the fact that Bioware might've decided the elven gods to be villain from the start, as well as Arlathan being a previous, elven version of Tevinter. Which kind of Makes sense, since the humans Who came in thedas later adopted the elven empire's stance as their own.
It's not like the other empires, countries and organizations in thedas are shown in a positive light. Regardless if they're human, dwarves or qunari, they have plenty of negative qualities. The elves' countries (so far Arlathan) just joined the club.

The Dalish are definitely portrayed as bad in TME. But it's just a clan, not all the Dalish. On the other hand both contenders for the Orlesian throne were shown with a lot of flaws, as Well as the majority of Orlesian nobles.

[LobselVith8]

I don't think JOH blames everything on the elves for the problems that lead to the Orlesians-Dales war. It just shown that Drakon might've not have the intention of conquering the Dales.
The fact that the Dalish didn't trust humans (and not just Drakon) at all was already established long before JOH. The faults of the elves and the Orlesians that lead to the conflict didn't change after Hakkon. Showing that Drakon has positive traits doesn't make Orlais better, expecially considering what happened after his death.

Cassanra and Sera blaming the elves exclusively, along with Ameridan (our only source of intel) also blaming the elves exclusively, doesn't lead me to believe so. There's no balance to JoH - it simply shifts all the blame on the elves for not immediately trusting Drakon. Unless you were actually familiar with the lore to pick up on the context of Ameridan's lines to a human and qunari Inquisitor, you wouldn't realize the horrible things Drakon was doing to create Orlais. That's my issue.

I don't see why Giselle thinking the Maker is involved is a positive thing. She's delusional and wrong, since the story clearly shown the Maker isn't involved at all.

The narrative doesn't treat Giselle like she's delusional and wrong, and it treats her like we're supposed to take her seriously. It's an example of the double-standard of the narrative when we get an explanation how the Maker could still be involved when it's discovered that the mark isn't of Maker origin, but we have the Dalish painted as entirely wrong when they actually got a number of things right.

Heck, Tresspasser isn't positive for Andrastians either. It shown that at least some parts of the lore about him is wrong, since he didn't create the Veil. The Evanuris are another thing that don't really go well with the Maker either. There are high chances that if a 'God' exists in DA isn't the Maker. The latter might've well be a distorted story of Solas, which would mean that humans have worshipped an elf. That's not exactly a pleasant theory for Andrastians or supporters of the Maker.

Disapproving one religion and turning the gods into villainous beings while treating another religion as though it's sacrosanct is something I see as an issue.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I don't think JOH blames everything on the elves for the problems that lead to the Orlesians-Dales war. It just shown that Drakon might've not have the intention of conquering the Dales.

The fact that the Dalish didn't trust humans (and not just Drakon) at all was already established long before JOH. The faults of the elves and the Orlesians that lead to the conflict didn't change after Hakkon. Showing that Drakon has positive traits doesn't make Orlais better, expecially considering what happened after his death.

I don't see why Giselle thinking the Maker is involved is a positive thing. She's delusional and wrong, since the story clearly shown the Maker isn't involved at all.

Heck, Tresspasser isn't positive for Andrastians either. It shown that at least some parts of the lore about him is wrong, since he didn't create the Veil. The Evanuris are another thing that don't really go well with the Maker either. There are high chances that if a 'God' exists in DA isn't the Maker. The latter might've well be a distorted story of Solas, which would mean that humans have worshipped an elf. That's not exactly a pleasant theory for Andrastians or supporters of the Maker.

 

Trespasser is sad for Elves and hilarious for Andrastians.

 

Andrastians before Trespasser :- "The Maker created the Veil. He left us, stopped giving much of a f*ck, took a human barbarian as a wife and if we spread his word, he will listen to us again."

 

Andrastians after Trespasser:- "Yes Solas made the Veil but he is not the Maker ! Heresy ! Yes we said that Maker created the Veil...but...FAITH !"

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I'd say Merrill's codex, Merrill's dialogue (including her referring to how any child with magical ability would be apprenticed to a Keeper), Ariane addressing they welcomed a Circle mage into her clan, Lanaya mentioning she trained against several contenders for the position of First, and Zathrian's clan having more than three mages would show that the 'three mage recton' isn't consistent with past lore, but that's just me.

 

There's a reason people call it a recton.

Speaking of TME, it's a shame that a bigot like Gaspard, who funded scholars writing essays that read that elves are animals and that human/elven relations is bestiality (and presumably murdered an elf as part of his chevalier initiation rite) while Celene burned thousands of elven men, women, and children to death are still written as though they warrant being treated like by people - and even honorable in their way - while the Dalish are simply written to be degraded and disregarded entirely.

 

The 3 mages thing is an obvious retcon. However, we can simply ignore it and say that the clan Minaeve went to were massive jerks. After all, not all Dalish Clans are equal. In fact, lorewise, Clan Lavellan is different from many other Dalish clans whereby its people openly traded with humans and respected them, whilst still trying to preserve their own culture.

 

Source:- http://dragonage.wik...i/Lavellan_clan

 

As for Gaspard and Celene, they are both douches but that's just the nature of politicians and rulers. My Lavellan had Gaspard killed and had Celene reconcile with Briala even though he was not fond of Celene for burning down the Alienages because he recognized that, like in Wycome, Elves and Humans must work together to achieve piece. Making Briala the true ruler with Gaspard a puppet would ruin things in the long run when the Inquisition is no longer powerful.
 

[DreamerM]

Disapproving one religion and turning the gods into villainous beings while treating another religion as though it's sacrosanct is something I see as an issue.

 

There's an interesting angle there though. Patrick Weekes has said he's never going to flat-out prove there's no Maker, at least not while he's head writer. But, if you wanted to see what would happen to a society who learns the literal truth of their gods... The Dalish would be how to do it. What would happen if it became common knowledge that the Creators were mages rather then literal gods, and that they enslaved and exploited their own people, and destroyed themselves and all Elven kind with their infighting? 

The Dalish use their lost glory as justification for their anger towards the outside world. What would happen if the world learned the truth? Would they cling to the stories, or would they turn away? It would be a huge moment for Thedas.

Solas dismisses the Dalish, calling them children who don't understand anything. I wonder if that isn't going to turn out to be his weakness. What if the Dalish actually have managed to save something that ends up being key to defeating him? Something he never imagined they could figure out? It wouldn't be the first time he underestimated someone with esoteric magical power. Inquisition only ever happened because he had no idea Corytheus could have possibly ever figured out how to make himself immortal.

Speaking of the Blight, I think there's another shoe to be dropped about where that really came from too. We will have to wait and see. 

[The Elder King]

Cassanra and Sera blaming the elves exclusively, along with Ameridan (our only source of intel) also blaming the elves exclusively, doesn't lead me to believe so. There's no balance to JoH - it simply shifts all the blame on the elves for not immediately trusting Drakon. Unless you were actually familiar with the lore to pick up on the context of Ameridan's lines to a human and qunari Inquisitor, you wouldn't realize the horrible things Drakon was doing to create Orlais. That's my issue.

The narrative doesn't treat Giselle like she's delusional and wrong, and it treats her like we're supposed to take her seriously. It's an example of the double-standard of the narrative when we get an explanation how the Maker could still be involved when it's discovered that the mark isn't of Maker origin, but we have the Dalish painted as entirely wrong when they actually got a number of things right.

Disapproving one religion and turning the gods into villainous beings while treating another religion as though it's sacrosanct is something I see as an issue.

JOH wasn't about explaining Drakon's actions though. It just shown a bit of backstory on him.
It's true that they could've balanced the opinion on the war, but the dlc didn't change my opinion on it.

The fact that Giselle isn't shown as delusional doesn't change the fact she's wrong if you play the game. Also, even without considering Trespasser, the reveal of the elven gods actually existing is a huge blow on Andrastian's faith.
How does the game and Trespasser treats the Andrastian faith as sacrosant? the lore reveal on the elven gods cast huge doubts on the Maker being real, or at least being as the Andrastians think.
And again, the elven gods aren't turned in villains. They might've be like this from the start of the series. Would you have preferred if they gave hints of this in DAO and DA2 to soften the blow?

Trespasser is sad for Elves and hilarious for Andrastians.
 
Andrastians before Trespasser :- "The Maker created the Veil. He left us, stopped giving much of a f*ck, took a human barbarian as a wife and if we spread his word, he will listen to us again."
 
Andrastians after Trespasser:- "Yes Solas made the Veil but he is not the Maker ! Heresy ! Yes we said that Maker created the Veil...but...FAITH !"

Yeah, the Andrastian faith definitely didn't end in a good situation after Trespasser. Even more so if Solas turns out to be the Maker.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

There's an interesting angle there though. Patrick Weekes has said he's never going to flat-out prove there's no Maker, at least not while he's head writer. But, if you wanted to see what would happen to a society who learns the literal truth of their gods... The Dalish would be how to do it. What would happen if it became common knowledge that the Creators were mages rather then literal gods, and that they enslaved and exploited their own people, and destroyed themselves and all Elven kind with their infighting? 

The Dalish use their lost glory as justification for their anger towards the outside world. What would happen if the world learned the truth? Would they cling to the stories, or would they turn away? It would be a huge moment for Thedas.

Solas dismisses the Dalish, calling them children who don't understand anything. I wonder if that isn't going to turn out to be his weakness. What if the Dalish actually have managed to save something that ends up being key to defeating him? Something he never imagined they could figure out? It wouldn't be the first time he underestimated someone with esoteric magical power. Inquisition only ever happened because he had no idea Corytheus could have possibly ever figured out how to make himself immortal.

Speaking of the Blight, I think there's another shoe to be dropped about where that really came from too. We will have to wait and see. 

 

Well, Mythal was slain somehow (though not completely) by the Evanuris. Perhaps that weapon fell onto one of the Dalish clans somewhere.

 

I believe (not fact, but believe) that Thedas is made up of 4 components / 4 dimensons:- The Air, The Land, The Fade, The Void. The Land and The Air are the opposite of each other whereas The Fade and The Void are the opposite of each other. Think of the Fade as Heaven and Void as Hell (Eternal Darkness kind of Hell, not the hellfire and brimstone kind)

 

The Air:- Realm of the Dragons.

 

The Land:- Realm of the Titans and Dwarves.

 

The Fade:- Realm of the Spirits and some of them later became Elves.

 

The Void:- Realm of the Taint.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Void

[Ellawynn]

Well, Mythal was slain somehow (though not completely) by the Evanuris. Perhaps that weapon fell onto one of the Dalish clans somewhere

 

I'm pretty sure Mythal was just normal-murdered. And Solas can similarly be normal-murdered too. No fancy weapon required.

 

Although, also similarly, normal-murdering will take him down but not out.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I'm pretty sure Mythal was just normal-murdered. And Solas can similarly be normal-murdered too. No fancy weapon required.

 

Although, also similarly, normal-murdering will take him down but not out.

 

Is it just me or is Mythal's death reminiscent of Voldemort's first death in some ways ? The whole thing reminded me of Voldemort when he died the first time:- He did not die completely. He was, as he stated himself:- "Less than a ghost, less than a spirit, but still alive."

 

Likewise, Mythal did not die, but she was reduced to something less than a ghost, less than a spirit:- A wisp of an Evanuri, so more powerful than typical wisps, but still alive.

 

Perhaps if Solas does not listen to reason, maybe the particular Inquisitor had low approval of him, killing Solas could reduce him to a wisp form.

[CapricornSun]

Art post.

 

'Burdens of Command' by nipuni.   (This artist never ceases to amaze me!)

Spoiler

Source: http://nipuni.tumblr...-title-would-be

 

"I would treasure the chance to be wrong once again;

I will never forget you."

Spoiler

Source: http://lawlful.tumbl...o-be-wrong-once

 

Papa Solas carrying his baby. 

Spoiler

Source: http://sirladysketch...drawing-stuff-a

 

Beautiful sketches of DA:I characters. 

Spoiler

Source: http://drawingfixx.t...heart-in-thedas

[CapricornSun]

I'm curious (since you seem familiar with a lot of Solas artwork), is there any art with Merrill and Solas? I always thought the prospect of the two of them meeting and talking would be interesting, given their mutual views on spirits not merely being good or evil and viewing blood magic as a tool.

 

I have come across a few of them. Here are some Merrill and Solas art:

 

Solas and Merrill getting along.

Spoiler

Source: http://kireieleison....y-both-stole-my

 

Solas reluctantly approves.

Spoiler

Source: http://jinzali.tumbl...st/112720011921 <-- The source link no longer works though.

 

Cute Solas and Merill sitting around at the docks.

Spoiler

Source: http://poly-hebdo.tu...y-birthday-croc

 

Not quite Merrill and Solas but Merrill can't believe that Varric called Fen'Harel, "Chuckles".

Spoiler

Source: http://albaharu.tumb...allvarric-is-in

 

"By the Dread Wolf!"

Spoiler

Source: http://taser-tag.tum...s-been-done-yet

[Arvaarad]

Is it just me or is Mythal's death reminiscent of Voldemort's first death in some ways ? The whole thing reminded me of Voldemort when he died the first time:- He did not die completely. He was, as he stated himself:- "Less than a ghost, less than a spirit, but still alive."

Likewise, Mythal did not die, but she was reduced to something less than a ghost, less than a spirit:- A wisp of an Evanuri, so more powerful than typical wisps, but still alive.

Perhaps if Solas does not listen to reason, maybe the particular Inquisitor had low approval of him, killing Solas could reduce him to a wisp form.

Which could backfire horribly if, as some theorize, the creators' resurrections act like spirit resurrections or the rebirths of Avvar gods.

If the Dread Wolf is reborn, he might not have exactly the same personality or even the same memories. Certainly, if Fen'Harel 2.0 grows to match the Dalish ideas, that could be very bad indeed.

[Gervaise]

Weighing in to the argument further up, the issue is not so much what is revealed about the various religions, but the fact that people in game only get to comment on Dalish beliefs in a really negative way.   In a way Trespasser finished too soon.    We meet Solas, they show us deciding what to do with the Inquisition and set up the likely location of the next game.    What we didn't get was the reaction of people to what Solas told us.   It was huge, not just to the Dalish but to everyone.   Whilst the Chant might leave open to interpretation whether the Maker was really responsible for the Veil, it is clear that the majority would think that it was part of his creation and the material world and its separation from the Fade.    Any false gods were also meant to have been imprisoned by the Maker himself.

 

So now, according to Solas, he created the Veil in order to imprison the false gods.   The Maker doesn't feature there anywhere.     We have a whole magical world existing before the raising of the Veil, with the Evanuris busily engaged building cities and monuments and warring with Titans and possibly other creatures, whereas according to the Chant the whole reason the Maker created the material world was because the inhabitants of the Fade did nothing worthwhile except stand round and sing his praises.   In the Chant there is no mention of Evanuris, elves, Titans and dwarves in the grand scheme of things, so if the Maker was responsible for the creation of everything, where do they all fit in?    The orb belonged to Solas, he was going to use it to change reality again until Corypheus stopped him and he still intends doing the same in the future if he can obtain the means to do so.    Where was the Maker in all this?    What Solas intended doing was more than just breaking into the Golden City, he was going to change the world entirely, which is surely the prerogative of the Maker.   

 

I assume this is why we never did see the scene where the Inquisitor reveals what they have discovered because it would be just too momentous for people like Giselle simply to explain away as she did in the main game.

[LobselVith8]

I don't recall Zathrian's clan having more then three mages in DAO, but it's been a while since I played. Of are you referring to the training Lanaya was talking about?

 

I was referring to additional mages like Elora (the halla herder) and Aneirin, the latter of whom is identified as 'the Healer' by the clan (in a very positive way when you ask about him) and who admits that he left the clan of his own volition, but that he stays close by to them because he feels indebted to them. In addition to the Keeper, the First, and the Second, that's not simply three mages.

 

2)Spreading to the whole world, or far away, doesn't mean that he conquered very part of the world. And I never said Drakon didn't have expansionistic projects. Just that he might've not wanted to conquer the Dales.

 

First, spreading the Chant to the whole world is going to be an issue when your neighbor follows a different religion. Second, Ameridan comments to a Vashoth about Drakon expanding his empire, so we have the DLC spinning Drakon's imperialistic ambitions in a positive manner because we have Ameridan speaking as his mouthpiece.

 

3)I was simply referring to the fact that Bioware might've decided the elven gods to be villain from the start, as well as Arlathan being a previous, elven version of Tevinter. Which kind of Makes sense, since the humans Who came in thedas later adopted the elven empire's stance as their own.
It's not like the other empires, countries and organizations in thedas are shown in a positive light. Regardless if they're human, dwarves or qunari, they have plenty of negative qualities. The elves' countries (so far Arlathan) just joined the club.

 

But we're addressing the depiction of their gods so far (which is certainly portrayed in a villainous manner), not their empire.

 

The Dalish are definitely portrayed as bad in TME. But it's just a clan, not all the Dalish. On the other hand both contenders for the Orlesian throne were shown with a lot of flaws, as Well as the majority of Orlesian nobles.

 

Except TME treats it as if all Dalish are like these ridiculous caricatures. The fact that Weekes is willing to depict outright racists in better tones than an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children is incredibly problematic.

[Ghost Gal]

The Dalish use their lost glory as justification for their anger towards the outside world. 

 

They were conquered and enslaved by the "outsider world" twice, and their kind remain slaves and second-class citizens in human society to this day. Their religion has been vilified and outlawed by the Chantry, any time they're granted land it gets stripped away (the Dales, the Hinterlands) and they have to stay on the move if they don't want to be attacked village mobs, Chevaliers or Templars. I think that's a pretty good reason to be mad.

 

Even Clans who try to be friendly and accepting of outsiders like Clan Lavellan often get attacked for their efforts.

 

 

There's an interesting angle there though. Patrick Weekes has said he's never going to flat-out prove there's no Maker, at least not while he's head writer. But, if you wanted to see what would happen to a society who learns the literal truth of their gods... The Dalish would be how to do it.

 

I think your observation is moot. BioWare will never prove there's no Maker the way he'll gladly prove there are no Creators, so Andrastians will never deal with having their faith shaken the way the Dalish do.

 

Even if they did, they'd just choose to keep believing anyway and be portrayed sympathetically for it.

 

In fact, I'm rather annoyed by the double standard regarding "faith." The Andrastian's "faith" in the Maker and the Herald of Andraste is portrayed sympathetically despite having no basis in fact, and even being proven wrong towards the end of the game (the Fade at Adamant). The narrative and characters constantly lecture the player about how "faith" is not and should not be based on reason or evidence; as long as choosing to believe in something gives people hope and purpose, it's a good thing.

 

Meanwhile, the game constantly shits all over the elves for retaining faith in their religion and traditions despite having no evidence at first, then basically keeps calling them stupid for retaining faith in their beliefs after it's been revealed that their religion and beliefs are not all based in strict fact. Worse, while "the truth" is presented as being completely irrelevant to the value of faith for Andrastians, that same game turns around and acts like "the truth" behind the stories of elves is what's really important, and the elves are morons for deriving faith from something not factually true and thus should abandon their faiths and beliefs.

 

If Andrastians can choose to keep seeing you as The Herald of Andraste even after being told the woman seen in the rift behind you was Justinia and the Mark came from a ritual gone wrong rather than the Maker and still be portrayed sympathetically, the elves should get a break for retaining faith in their religion, heritage, and traditions in a world that still tells them everything they are is inferior and worthless.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish use their lost glory as justification for their anger towards the outside world. What would happen if the world learned the truth? Would they cling to the stories, or would they turn away? It would be a huge moment for Thedas.

 

I think being attacked by the outside world is the justification for some of the Dalish being angry at the outside world. Humans attacking them when they stay too long in one area and templars pursuing them. Clan Sabrae can tell Hawke in Act III that they have dealt with Andrastians threatening them with violence to convert, while we know Clan Lavellan traveled between the territorial borders in the Free Marches to mitigate attacks from humans (since they would be less likely to attack since trespassing on the territory of another city-state could provoke them). Those are still huge problems that have nothing to do with the apparent villainous nature of the Creators, and it doesn't go away if the Dalish learn that the Creators are villains.

 

We know there's a semi-permanent settlement of Dalish who live in peace with Rivaini who follow the Natural Order, and they encourage the purchase of elven goods rather than trying to wipe them out for not following their religion.

 

Solas dismisses the Dalish, calling them children who don't understand anything. I wonder if that isn't going to turn out to be his weakness. What if the Dalish actually have managed to save something that ends up being key to defeating him? Something he never imagined they could figure out? It wouldn't be the first time he underestimated someone with esoteric magical power. Inquisition only ever happened because he had no idea Corytheus could have possibly ever figured out how to make himself immortal.

 

A positive portrayal of the Dalish that's up front and center, and isn't hidden away in a difficult questline or an easy to miss wartable operation, would certainly be nice.

[Moondreamer01]

Even if there is never proof of the existence or no of the maker, I could totally see them taking a swing at Andraste and her story, especially since it seems like we are going to Tevinter next. Unlike the Maker, Andraste is a historical character and as we've seen previously, there is a lot Thedosian have forgotten about their own history. A figure like Andraste would have been ripe for propaganda from all sides (see the efforts to erase Shartan completely). I wouldn't be surprised if we learned more about her and the real deal with her fight against Tevinter in the next game, and as usual, the truth will be in all in shades of grey.

[LobselVith8]

JOH wasn't about explaining Drakon's actions though. It just shown a bit of backstory on him.
It's true that they could've balanced the opinion on the war, but the dlc didn't change my opinion on it.

 

It was backstory that omitted all the bad parts and whitewashed the very nature of what it meant for Drakon to expand his empire. The imbalance is the issue that Ghost and I are addressing.

 

The fact that Giselle isn't shown as delusional doesn't change the fact she's wrong if you play the game. Also, even without considering Trespasser, the reveal of the elven gods actually existing is a huge blow on Andrastian's faith.

 

Of course Giselle is wrong, but the narrative doesn't treat it as such; she's the one who says who provides the explanation that maybe the Maker is still guiding your hand. In contrast, the Dalish are treated like they got everything wrong - after centuries of slavery by Tevinter and losing their homeland generations later - rather than simply getting a few things wrong and a whole lot more right. It's the double-standards that bother some of us who are critical of how the Dalish were handled in Dragon Age II, TME, and Inquisition.

 

How does the game and Trespasser treats the Andrastian faith as sacrosant? the lore reveal on the elven gods cast huge doubts on the Maker being real, or at least being as the Andrastians think.

 

Please let me elaborate, since I was meant that in a more general sense. I meant in terms of the developers acting like the Andrastian faith is hands off (as it seems Weekes has no intention of addressing whether or not the Maker is real) while the developers have no problems dismantling the faith of the Dalish and depicting the Creators in a villainous manner (which is the only depiction we have been given so far).

[The Elder King]

I was referring to additional mages like Elora (the halla herder) and Aneirin, the latter of whom is identified as 'the Healer' by the clan (in a very positive way when you ask about him) and who admits that he left the clan of his own volition, but that he stays close by to them because he feels indebted to them. In addition to the Keeper, the First, and the Second, that's not simply three mages.
 

 
First, spreading the Chant to the whole world is going to be an issue when your neighbor follows a different religion. Second, Ameridan comments to a Vashoth about Drakon expanding his empire, so we have the DLC spinning Drakon's imperialistic ambitions in a positive manner because we have Ameridan speaking as his mouthpiece.
 

 
But we're addressing the depiction of their gods so far (which is certainly portrayed in a villainous manner), not their empire.
 

 
Except TME treats it as if all Dalish are like these ridiculous caricatures. The fact that Weekes is willing to depict outright racists in better tones than an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children is incredibly problematic.

Fair enough, though I wouldn't consider Aneirin a member of the clan. I don't deny that there's a retcon, though the various clans might have different stances.

I'm not saying spreading the Chant and forcing it on different population is good. I'm simply saying that Ameridas' words doesn't mean Drakon necessarily have to conquer everything to spread the Chant in the world, or that his intention on the elves weren't more neutral then you believe.
The point is moot anyway, since after his death his successors clearly shown the stance you're describing.


The Maker, howewer, wasn't exactly portrayed in a positive light from the start. The fact that he abandoned mortals twice (and the only reason he came back once was for a single woman), and that he didn't care for most of thedas' history about the problems of mortals (Blights included) aren't exactly positive qualities. On the other hand the Creators were portrayed far more positive them the Maker.
Now the situation is different, but it'd be best to wait and see what will happen to the Andrastian faith post DAI.

And I'm not saying the portrayals of the Dalish couldn't have been better or more varied, or that it was a good move from Weekes. It's still just a clan though. We already know Dalish clans might have different stances between each others. While it's a bad example, it can be an isolated one.

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough, though I wouldn't consider Aneirin a member of the clan. I don't deny that there's a retcon, though the various clans might have different stances.

I would argue that there is not a retcon, that Minaeve is anomalous, and that Vivienne is either full of crap or just took Minaeve at her incorrect word.