153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Elessara]

Even if there is never proof of the existence or no of the maker, I could totally see them taking a swing at Andraste and her story, especially since it seems like we are going to Tevinter next. Unlike the Maker, Andraste is a historical character and as we've seen previously, there is a lot Thedosian have forgotten about their own history. A figure like Andraste would have been ripe for propaganda from all sides (see the efforts to erase Shartan completely). I wouldn't be surprised if we learned more about her and the real deal with her fight against Tevinter in the next game, and as usual, the truth will be in all in shades of grey.

 

As I recall, the Imperial Chantry teaches that Andraste was not the bride of the Maker but a mortal woman who was a mage.  I don't really have an opinion one way or the other if she was or was not the bride of the Maker but personally I rather think she was possessed by a spirit.  Wouldn't that be a huge blow to the Andrastian faith, if she was either a mage or possessed (or both)?

[The Elder King]

As I recall, the Imperial Chantry teaches that Andraste was not the bride of the Maker but a mortal woman who was a mage. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other if she was or was not the bride of the Maker but personally I rather think she was possessed by a spirit. Wouldn't that be a huge blow to the Andrastian faith, if she was either a mage or possessed (or both)?

It'd be another blow after the Veil being created by Solas.
I don't think will happen even if the Maker turns out to be a version of Solas, but I'll laugh a lot if Andraste turns out to be Flemeth/Mythal who established the Maker's as a version of Solas' story.

[Qun00]

Remind me... what was the problem with using lightning spells as a Rift mage?

[dawnstone]

That's cute as heck!

Isn't it though?

 

Here's the full gif set, on capricorn-sunny's tumblr, if you're interested. I tried to find the original post on isabelasass' tumblr since she made them, but no dice.

[Elessara]

Remind me... what was the problem with using lightning spells as a Rift mage?

 

I didn't know there was a problem  =x  ... I prefer Rift mage as a spec and I prefer lightning over the other damage elements.  Hmm.  I vaguely recall something about the Rift mage spec not working quite right but I'm not sure if it was in relation to using lightning.

[Ellawynn]

It's about how the Dalish are vilified (like in TME), the incessant derogatory comments aimed at Lavellan by a myriad of characters, and the imbalance when it comes to how stories with Andrastians are framed in comparison to how stories with the Dalish are framed. And considering Solas is an elf with an agenda that involves all elves on the continent, I find it more in line than discussing dwarves or the qunari.

 

 

 

?

 

I don't understand why you continue to dodge this issue. Just go off topic. No one cares if you do - it's not like Solas is the ONLY thing we discuss in this thread - we didn't get to 6000 pages talking solely about one single character. If you feel other factions besides the Dalish have been treated unfairly, by all means, expand upon why. It's certainly pertinent to the question of developer favoritism.

 

 

 

Your line of thought doesn't really make any sense. The racial option I chose to play as isn't comparable to criticisms that I've levied towards the writers In regards to how the Dalish are framed by the narrative, and how they are sometimes vilified.

 

 

 

???

 

I never said anything about who you choose to play as - and neither did you for that matter, until just now. I didn't know what you prefer to play as. I made no reference to it. But earlier in the thread you said you don't find the Andrastian humans interesting and expressed disappointment that they are likely to continue being the focus. So...?

 

 

Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully because I never advocated for imbalanced writing that depicts Andrastian humans as caricatures or continually treats them in a derogatory manner in the way that I've criticized the developers for handling the Dalish. You're also welcome to read Ghost's posts (as one example) if you require clarification on what some of us find problematic.

 

Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully. The hypothetical situation I posited was just that - a hypothetical. I never said that was what you wanted. I was wondering what it would be like if that were the case.

 

And it's not fair to neither me nor Ghost to have her make your arguments for you, especially when she's not responding to me as you are, especially when the posts I've read of hers aren't dealing with this question at all. If the answer is so obviously clear, you'd expend less effort by just giving it to me instead of pointing vaguely at another poster and telling me that your response is there somewhere.

 

So for sake of convenience, I'll repeat - why is developer favoritism bad, when you and everyone else does it?

[Moondreamer01]

As I recall, the Imperial Chantry teaches that Andraste was not the bride of the Maker but a mortal woman who was a mage.  I don't really have an opinion one way or the other if she was or was not the bride of the Maker but personally I rather think she was possessed by a spirit.  Wouldn't that be a huge blow to the Andrastian faith, if she was either a mage or possessed (or both)?

That definitely would be a blow. Same if Shartan ended up being her lover lol. I kinda wish that Mythal and/or Solas won't have anything to dow ith that one, but seeing the way the dev looks to try to make history connected, I probably won't get my wish. Still, I'm fascinated by the truth behind historical myths so I lap all those revelation like a kitten would fresh cream.

[dawnstone]

 

I don't understand why you continue to dodge this issue. Just go off topic. No one cares if you do - it's not like Solas is the ONLY thing we discuss in this thread - we didn't get to 6000 pages talking solely about one single character. If you feel other factions besides the Dalish have been treated unfairly, by all means, expand upon why. It's certainly pertinent to the question of developer favoritism.

Uh, I do care, but I also recognize that it's futile to try to police the conversation on a thread this prolific.

[LobselVith8]

?

 

I don't understand why you continue to dodge this issue. Just go off topic. No one cares if you do - it's not like Solas is the ONLY thing we discuss in this thread - we didn't get to 6000 pages talking solely about one single character. If you feel other factions besides the Dalish have been treated unfairly, by all means, expand upon why. It's certainly pertinent to the question of developer favoritism.

 

I didn't dodge the question, I pointed out that the topic came up because Solas is elven and is tied to the elves. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.

 

???

 

I never said anything about who you choose to play as - and neither did you for that matter, until just now. I didn't know what you prefer to play as. I made no reference to it. But earlier in the thread you said you don't find the Andrastian humans interesting and expressed disappointment that they are likely to continue being the focus. So...?

 

You seem to have glossed over how my criticisms focused on how the Dalish were presented when we did encounter them; when we meet Clan Sabrae, Hawke seems confused as to why they are apprehensive of outsiders, and rather than have it explained for viewers that the Dalish face a number of threats from outsiders, it simply served to have Fenris or Varric make derogatory comments towards them.

 

Ghost brought up the treatment of Merrill, and how the narrative treats her construction of the Eluvian in comparison to Morrigan repairing an existing Eluvian with the aid of the Empress of Orlais - it's the hypocritical writing that denigrates Merrill for trying to help her people through the technology of her ancestors while propping Morrigan.

 

In TME, the Dalish we encounter are one-dimensional, and have no depth; the warleader doesn't even have a name, and seems to only exist to make Michel look good in comparison.

 

In Inquisition, we encounter a plethora of characters who continually denigrate and belittle Dalish culture. The two elven companions we have look down on our culture and our people. There is no pro-Dalish companion to provide us with a reprieve from these insults and derogatory comments, although we are surrounded by people who extol the virtues of the Andrastian faith and even the importance of the Chantry. In JoH, we have Drakon's Exalted Marches against his neighbors and his culling of thousands of people of other faiths ignored to have the narrative present all the blame at the feet of the elves.

 

Perhaps I could go on, but I'm summarizing different points I've previously made to try and get you to understand what I'm addressing here.

 

Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully. The hypothetical situation I posited was just that - a hypothetical. I never said that was what you wanted. I was wondering what it would be like if that were the case.

 

I did - the problem was you didn't seem to bother reading mine and you simply trivialized my issues by writing them off without actually trying to understand any of them.

[The Elder King]

On the Eluvian, while it's true that it's considered differently based on who was rebuilding them (though the people praising Morrigan aren't the same criticizing Merrill), Merrill was also criticized for her use of blood magic and being helped by a demon.

[LobselVith8]

And it's not fair to neither me nor Ghost to have her make your arguments for you, especially when she's not responding to me as you are, especially when the posts I've read of hers aren't dealing with this question at all. If the answer is so obviously clear, you'd expend less effort by just giving it to me instead of pointing vaguely at another poster and telling me that your response is there somewhere.

 

So for sake of convenience, I'll repeat - why is developer favoritism bad, when you and everyone else does it?

 

That's because Ghost already answered it - repeatedly. You're welcome to go back and count how many times Ghost has already addressed how unbalanced the narrative handles the Dalish (and even Andrastian elves like Briala) in comparison to humans. It's bad when the tone comes across as hypocritical - as with the example Ghost provided of how the story treats Merrill constructing the Eluvian in comparison to how it treats Morrigan fixing an existing Eluvian - and when the story almost exclusively treats the Dalish like garbage and even dismantles their faith while continually propping humans and their faith, and with the developers treating the Andrastian faith as if it's sacrosanct I see a bias.

 

When the writing is unbalanced in how it depicts characters - when it derides one person while propping another for virtually the same thing - it's a problem. When the story omits information and conveys inaccurate information to the viewer to vilify one group (the elves) in order to whitewash another (Drakon), it's a problem (as it was with JoH). This is also something that effects how the developers will handle the elves in the next game, and a problem that will likely reflect the elves who are involved with Solas and who are opposed to Solas.

 

What some of us would prefer is more balance. Three-dimensional characters, not one-dimensional caricatures like in TME or good depictions that are easy to miss because they're in wartable operations you may never get (because Clan Lavellan can easily die several times) or because you need to get high approval with a clan and could miss out (something Ghost also addressed earlier with Hawen's clan).

 

These are things Ghost has repeatedly explained across several posts, and in much greater detail than I'm doing (I'm condensing it into one, after all) - I have no issue elaborating on one of the examples cited if you think it necessary to better understand my position on these matters.

[Ellawynn]

EDIT: @Lob Since you finally actually responded to my question (In a completely different post, for some reason) allow me to go back and address it

[LobselVith8]

On the Eluvian, while it's true that it's considered differently based on who was rebuilding them (though the people praising Morrigan aren't the same criticizing Merrill), Merrill was also criticized for her use of blood magic and being helped by a demon.

 

Which are separate criticisms. Admittedly, Ghost cited the examples so it may be better for Ghost to address this, but I'll say that I concur that the narrative frames the two women very different for trying to do the same thing, albeit their goals were entirely different (Merrill wanted to utilize the technology to end the plight of the Elvhen while Morrigan wanted power).

 

I'll elaborate on another point as well. Audacity taught Merrill blood magic because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; the spirit was also trapped in a totem, and had been ever since the war between Arlathan and Tevinter. Merrill was building the Eluvian from lore she studied and information she extrapolated from the shard she cleansed.

[Qun00]

It'd be another blow after the Veil being created by Solas.
I don't think will happen even if the Maker turns out to be a version of Solas, but I'll laugh a lot if Andraste turns out to be Flemeth/Mythal who established the Maker's as a version of Solas' story.

Flemeth already is Mythal. She will never turn out to be three people.

What will fans come up with next? She is a titan and a kossith as well? Thankfully, the writers know when to stop.

[The Elder King]

Which are separate criticisms. Admittedly, Ghost cited the examples so it may be better for Ghost to address this, but I'll say that I concur that the narrative frames the two women very different for trying to do the same thing, albeit their goals were entirely different (Merrill wanted to utilize the technology to end the plight of the Elvhen while Morrigan wanted power).
 
I'll elaborate on another point as well. Audacity taught Merrill blood magic because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; the spirit was also trapped in a totem, and had been ever since the war between Arlathan and Tevinter. Merrill was building the Eluvian from lore she studied and information she extrapolated from the shard she cleansed.

I'm not debating on Merril's decision to agree with the demon and use blood magic (I'm not a fan, though the reactions of the dalish/Pol were idiotic, as Well as the banter post-Act 3 and her quest). I'm just saying blood magic is a choice that lead to criticism, no matter the character and the race.

Flemeth already is Mythal. She will never turn out to be three people.
What will fans come up with next? She is a titan and a kossith as well? Thankfully, the writers know when to stop.

I never said I want her to be Andraste or that I think she'll be. I just said I'll Laugh if it'll happen.

[ladyiolanthe]

Remind me... what was the problem with using lightning spells as a Rift mage?

 

I don't know of any problem game-mechanics-wise. However, I do remember some people in this thread suggesting that in terms of roleplaying, for them, it didn't make much sense for the same mage to use both, since storm magic is the opposing force to spirit magic in DAI, and they felt that rift magic was an extension of spirit magic, or somesuch.

[Qun00]

I don't know of any problem game-mechanics-wise. However, I do remember some people in this thread suggesting that in terms of roleplaying, for them, it didn't make much sense for the same mage to use both, since storm magic is the opposing force to spirit magic in DAI, and they felt that rift magic was an extension of spirit magic, or somesuch.

The opposing force to spirit magic? How?

[Elessara]

The opposing force to spirit magic? How?

 

The whole magical barrier thing, right?  Ice barriers get destroyed by fire spells, fire barriers get destroyed by ice spells, spirit barriers get destroyed by electric, etc.  Although tbh, I've never found it a problem to destroy barriers just by attacking them.  Unless you're running that trial that makes random mobs more powerful and have special abilities because it can randomly buff up a magical barrier as well.  The buffed barriers are a complete pain in the rear to take down.

[Ellawynn]

That's because Ghost already answered it - repeatedly. You're welcome to go back and count how many times Ghost has already addressed how unbalanced the narrative handles the Dalish (and even Andrastian elves like Briala) in comparison to humans. It's bad when the tone comes across as hypocritical - as with the example Ghost provided of how the story treats Merrill constructing the Eluvian in comparison to how it treats Morrigan fixing an existing Eluvian - and when the story almost exclusively treats the Dalish like garbage and even dismantles their faith while continually propping humans and their faith, and with the developers treating the Andrastian faith as if it's sacrosanct I see a bias.

 

When the writing is unbalanced in how it depicts characters - when it derides one person while propping another for virtually the same thing - it's a problem. When the story omits information and conveys inaccurate information to the viewer to vilify one group (the elves) in order to whitewash another (Drakon), it's a problem (as it was with JoH). This is also something that effects how the developers will handle the elves in the next game, and a problem that will likely reflect the elves who are involved with Solas and who are opposed to Solas.

 

What some of us would prefer is more balance. Three-dimensional characters, not one-dimensional caricatures like in TME or good depictions that are easy to miss because they're in wartable operations you may never get (because Clan Lavellan can easily die several times) or because you need to get high approval with a clan and could miss out (something Ghost also addressed earlier with Hawen's clan).

 

These are things Ghost has repeatedly explained across several posts, and in much greater detail than I'm doing (I'm condensing it into one, after all) - I have no issue elaborating on one of the examples cited if you think it necessary to better understand my position on these matters.

 

I know Ghost acknowledges the unbalance in the narrative. I acknowledge it too. But I fail to see why it's an issue because, as I stated at the very beginning of this argument, the Dalish simply are not the main characters.

 

And why must characters that do not get much focus need to be as complex as the characters who do? You cannot realistically expect a writer to give the same level of complexity to all characters, even minor ones. Bias must be shown. Someone must be chosen as the favorite. That's what a main character is - the favorite.

 

(Well, ideally. Sometimes side plots and character are obviously the favorites, but eh.)

 

Which is the main thrust of my argument - bias cannot be avoided. Everyone does it. All developers do it. That the Dalish exist at all show the devs were biased towards them over any and all content that did not make it. That the Inquisitor is the PC instead of Cory or Hawke shows a bias towards them. It is inevitable, and it crops up in everything, both in the consumption of media and the creation of it. 

 

So bias cannot be bad, for the sake of simple practicality. If it were, if we excluded everyone who has preferences from writing, nothing would ever be written, because no one is without bias.

 

And this is why I was bringing up your earlier admittance that you find humans boring. Because it displayed your bias. Just as it displays my bias when I defend Solas but not Anders or Cory or Blackwall. Just as it displays anyone's bias when they express even a slight preference for anything.

[Ellawynn]

On the Eluvian, while it's true that it's considered differently based on who was rebuilding them (though the people praising Morrigan aren't the same criticizing Merrill), Merrill was also criticized for her use of blood magic and being helped by a demon.

 

Weren't Merrill and Morrigan written by different people - Morrigan by Gaider and Merrill by Kirby? Is it really fair to compare their depictions when two different people handled their stories? Consistency's not going to be great on a series with multiple writers.

 

This isn't necessarily a response to you, BTW. Just a stray thought.

[Addictress]

Spoiler

Solavellan . jpg  

[Arvaarad]

I don't know of any problem game-mechanics-wise. However, I do remember some people in this thread suggesting that in terms of roleplaying, for them, it didn't make much sense for the same mage to use both, since storm magic is the opposing force to spirit magic in DAI, and they felt that rift magic was an extension of spirit magic, or somesuch.

It's a game mechanics thing, depends on your Rift Mage playstyle. Lightning + Weakness = Sleep, which is a great cc and combo primer. However, for people who don't have ways to use the sleep effectively (lack of rogue/warrior finishers), the fact that Weakness is converted to Sleep prevents the RM from getting all the bonuses they get for hitting weakened enemies.

[Elessara]

It's a game mechanics thing, depends on your Rift Mage playstyle. Lightning + Weakness = Sleep, which is a great cc and combo primer. However, for people who don't have ways to use the sleep effectively (lack of rogue/warrior finishers), the fact that Weakness is converted to Sleep prevents the RM from getting all the bonuses they get for hitting weakened enemies.

 

You can always weaken them first THEN shock them .... I don't think this causes the weakened to change to sleep?

[Arvaarad]

You can always weaken them first THEN shock them .... I don't think this causes the weakened to change to sleep?

 

I wouldn't know. I usually consider sleep to be the desired outcome.

 

To me, it's a hard cc and it obliterates enemy health when used as a combo primer. I tend to run dagger rogues + lightning rift mage, so my screen ends up covered in huge Rupture combos. I can always regen the RM's mana after my foes have been destroyed.

[LobselVith8]

I know Ghost acknowledges the unbalance in the narrative. I acknowledge it too. But I fail to see why it's an issue because, as I stated at the very beginning of this argument, the Dalish simply are not the main characters.

 

And why must characters that do not get much focus need to be as complex as the characters who do? You cannot realistically expect a writer to give the same level of complexity to all characters, even minor ones. Bias must be shown. Someone must be chosen as the favorite. That's what a main character is - the favorite.

 

You don't need to be a main character to be written with some depth. You don't need to be a main character in order to be written as something other than a caricature. You're still asking questions that Ghost has already addressed. Ghost cited examples of how the developers were willing to rework Andrastian characters of varying importance when fans complained about certain aspects of them, but that they don't do the same for the Dalish (even to explain certain things that they get wrong).

 

I've cited the example of Hawke heading to Sundermount to meet Clan Sabrae, and how new viewers wouldn't even know why the Dalish are wary are outsiders, because the scene does nothing to inform them about the dangers they face. Instead of being informative and giving insight to the player about this (which wouldn't take long), the time is spent with Varric and Fenris mocking the Dalish, and making it seem like they have no real reason to be cautious about outsiders. That's the kind of problematic writing that I'm addressing.

 

Ghost brought up numerous examples of the imbalanced writing. Take, for example, the hypocritical tone that two stories took. As Ghost pointed out, the tone of the narrative when Dalish elf Merrill was constructing the Eluvian in comparison to when human Morrigan repaired an Eluvian. And Merrill was one of our companions. Admittedly, Ghost went into great detail about this already; you're more than welcome to peruse what Ghost wrote.

 

I also think it's fair to compare their depictions when they are characters in Dragon Age, and we know that the writers coordinate their efforts so that everyone is on the same page.

 

Which is the main thrust of my argument - bias cannot be avoided. Everyone does it. All developers do it. That the Dalish exist at all show the devs were biased towards them over any and all content that did not make it. That the Inquisitor is the PC instead of Cory or Hawke shows a bias towards them. It is inevitable, and it crops up in everything, both in the consumption of media and the creation of it. 

 

Considering that the content involving the Dalish was intensely negative in Dragon Age II, TME, and Inquisition, I don't agree.

 

So bias cannot be bad, for the sake of simple practicality. If it were, if we excluded everyone who has preferences from writing, nothing would ever be written, because no one is without bias.

 

And this is why I was bringing up your earlier admittance that you find humans boring. Because it displayed your bias. Just as it displays my bias when I defend Solas but not Anders or Cory or Blackwall. Just as it displays anyone's bias when they express even a slight preference for anything.

 

My issue with your retort is that it completely ignores every point I've brought up in addressing my issues with how the writers have framed the narrative and how the Dalish are routinely vilified and how the elves were marginalized in a region that's supposed to be predominantly elven (the Dales) in Inquisition. If you disagree with the criticisms I've brought up, you're welcome to actually address them.