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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#152126
dawnstone

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I sure do love this quote from Varric:

 

  • Cassandra: Varric, how could you let the Knight-Captain be framed for murder?
  • Varric: Well I did spent three entire chapters setting it up.
  • Cassandra: But she didn't deserve it! You'd already put her through more than enough!
  • Varric: Look seeker, if you love a character, you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death!
  • Cassandra: That makes no sense!
  • Varric: But you care enough to argue. If she has a nice afternoon and took a nap you'd stop reading.

 

If they're going by the Varric Tethras school of writing, no one in Dragon Age gets abuse because the devs don't like them.

 

ETA: Ooh I got a top!Solas:

 

jee8Ldl.jpg

No one likes the smell of wet dog, dude.


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#152127
Ghost Gal

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I didn't dodge the question, I pointed out that the topic came up because Solas is elven and is tied to the elves. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.

 

I'm starting to think you and I should cease this topic, Lobsel. Clearly, just because Solas is elven and tied to the elves doesn't mean Solas fans care about Thedas elves.

 

I know Ghost acknowledges the unbalance in the narrative. I acknowledge it too. But I fail to see why it's an issue because, as I stated at the very beginning of this argument, the Dalish simply are not the main characters.

 

And why must characters that do not get much focus need to be as complex as the characters who do? You cannot realistically expect a writer to give the same level of complexity to all characters, even minor ones. Bias must be shown. Someone must be chosen as the favorite. That's what a main character is - the favorite.

 

(Well, ideally. Sometimes side plots and character are obviously the favorites, but eh.)

 

Which is the main thrust of my argument - bias cannot be avoided. Everyone does it. All developers do it. That the Dalish exist at all show the devs were biased towards them over any and all content that did not make it. That the Inquisitor is the PC instead of Cory or Hawke shows a bias towards them. It is inevitable, and it crops up in everything, both in the consumption of media and the creation of it. 

 

So bias cannot be bad, for the sake of simple practicality. If it were, if we excluded everyone who has preferences from writing, nothing would ever be written, because no one is without bias.

 

And this is why I was bringing up your earlier admittance that you find humans boring. Because it displayed your bias. Just as it displays my bias when I defend Solas but not Anders or Cory or Blackwall. Just as it displays anyone's bias when they express even a slight preference for anything.

 

Okay, I can't ignore this:

 

And yet, they went to tons of trouble to redeem minor Andrastian characters like DAO and DA2 Cullen (who was a fairly minor character those games) and Mother Giselle, who's a minor character in DAI. They go to all that trouble for those minor characters, but not Dalish characters? Please.

 

Also, problem is BioWare strives for moral grayness with almost all of their conflicts. Time and time again BioWare has gone to great lengths to make many Thedas cultures and conflicts understandable from both perspectives.

 

While they failed miserably at it and most people found themselves siding with mages, for three games straight BioWare has tried to crowbar moral grayness in the Mage/Templar conflict, to the point of writing in new scenes for DA2 when the mages seemed to be getting too sympathetic. (Hawke's mother's death? Written just to give pro-Templar players justification. Orsino being a blood mage and collaborating with Hawke's mother's killer? Same thing.)

 

While they failed miserably at it and most people hate them anyway, for three games straight BioWare clearly tried to make the Qunari incomprehensible to outsiders but still likable in their own right. The honorable Sten and Arishok, and the likable Iron Bull explaining away controversial points against the Qunari (like their strict gender roles and lack of traditional families) were clearly meant to make them seem respectable to players. It wasn't until Trespasser that the devs finally seemed to realize players will NEVER like the Qunari, and just made them out-and-out villains like players expect.

 

So, why will BioWare go to all this trouble for minor characters (like DAO/DA2 Cullen and DAI Giselle) and factions that aren't "main characters" any more than the Andrastians, but not Dalish?

 

You say it's just because the Dalish aren't main characters, but I think it's just another case of "Screw You, Elves!" The devs clearly don't like elves, so they constantly present "non-elfy" elves as awesome (like Zevran, Fenris, and Sera), while "elfy" elves are depicted as shrewish harpies (Velanna), naive idiots (Merrill), or deluded maniacs (Solas). They've gone out of their way to present Dalish elves as more unlikable than any other Thedas cultures despite them being the ones the audience has the most reason to sympathize with. It takes effort to make them as unlikable as BioWare has clearly put effort into.

 

I also don't think "bias" is acceptable or professional. Trying to present one conflict or culture as objectively more sucky than others is bull when you're trying to sell your franchise as a "dark fantasy" with moral grayness all around. I also think it's highly unprofessional for a fantasy roleplaying game with race selection to punish a section of its fanbase for playing the "wrong" race. I said this about The Elder Scrolls, and I'll say it about Dragon Age: when you make elves a playable race for your video game, I think it's highly unprofessional to spit in the face of your elf fans by constantly crapping on them all game. It's one thing to put all your player characters through trials and tribulations, it's another thing to disproportionately punish the player for being an elf (like kill only Lavellan's family and no other Inquisitor's), constantly tell the elfy player why all elves suck (between Sera, Solas, Minaeve, and Briala all crapping on the Dalish, it's like "WE GET IT!"), and try to rub the player's face in how humanity is better. (Like presenting elves who've embraced human culture as "cool" while "elfy" elves get **** on). If you really hate elves, then don't put them in your fantasy world. If you do dislike elves, keep it out of how you portray your elven characters and storylines. Don't put them in just to make your elf characters and fans your punching bags.

 

Andrastian human fans would throw a sh*t-hemorrhage if their special blooded characters got depicted the way the elves got depicted.


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#152128
LobselVith8

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I'm starting to think you and I should cease this topic, Lobsel. Clearly, just because Solas is elven and tied to the elves doesn't mean Solas fans care about Thedas elves.

 

Fair enough, Ghost.



#152129
The Elder King

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Weren't Merrill and Morrigan written by different people - Morrigan by Gaider and Merrill by Kirby? Is it really fair to compare their depictions when two different people handled their stories? Consistency's not going to be great on a series with multiple writers.
 
This isn't necessarily a response to you, BTW. Just a stray thought.

The banter for Merrill was written with other Writers though, Gaider (Morrigan's writer) included.
@Ghost: I don't completely agree. The fact that they gave us the option of playing an elf in DAO doesn't mean that they shouldn't have written the elven Gods to be villains. I don't think this is unprofessional.
It's true though that post DAO their portrayals of the elves/dalish became more negative, but it should be noted that we weren't supposed to be able to play as an elf in DAI. The plot was written with a human perspective. That's the problems in adding playable races during development.

I also don't think Solas is portrayed as a maniac. He's been praised so far for how he's developed as an antagonist.
On the connection between Solas and caring about thedas elves, in other threads some Solas fans did show that they care about elves. I don't think they have to though. We don't even know if Solas cares about thedas elves, or only about ancient elves.
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#152130
CapricornSun

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Art break.  :ph34r:

 

Solas and Lavellan done for the kiss meme. <3

Spoiler

Source: http://fischotterche...ing-with-any-of

 

Solas has a plan. :P

Spoiler

Source: https://what-it-mean...ne-of-his-plans

 

Solas and male Lavellan in a school AU.

Spoiler

Source: http://noodlart.tumb.../more-school-au

 

A lovely sketchbook art of Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://bigbuffpugpuf...ketchbook-solas


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#152131
TheRatPack55

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Sorry if I'm asking a stupid question here but I haven't even played Trespasser yet and forgot a lot from the main game since I've played it so...

 

Do we have any indication if Solas' plans will actually help the modern elves in some way? Does he or any lore ever suggest that his actions will somehow 'uplift' the elves, or is he just going for the total erasure of the world as we know it, and if so, how is that going to 'restore' the old world, considering the original ancient elves are pretty much gone? Does Solas just want to release the spirits from the fade? Are the spirits the ones he's trying to help?

 

Again, sorry if there's an obvious answer (probably "no one knows"  ;)), I just haven't played DAI in over a year and I'm out of the loop.



#152132
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The situation isn't clear on what Solas' plan will mean for the modern elves.
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#152133
dawnstone

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Sorry if I'm asking a stupid question here but I haven't even played Trespasser yet and forgot a lot from the main game since I've played it so...

 

Do we have any indication if Solas' plans will actually help the modern elves in some way? Does he or any lore ever suggest that his actions will somehow 'uplift' the elves, or is he just going for the total erasure of the world as we know it, and if so, how is that going to 'restore' the old world, considering the original ancient elves are pretty much gone? Does Solas just want to release the spirits from the fade? Are the spirits the ones he's trying to help?

 

Again, sorry if there's an obvious answer (probably "no one knows"  ;)), I just haven't played DAI in over a year and I'm out of the loop.

The general consensus among fans is that he's going to kill everyone and everything, except some nebulous remnant of the Arlathan elves still surviving.

 

The actual lore (see Sandal's Prophecy and the Canticle of Exaltations) has the suggestion in prophecy that the elves will regain their powers, as will the dwarves.

 

Edited to add quotes -

 

Sandal's prophecy:

 

"One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."

 

 

Canticle of Exaltations 11-14:

 

Spoiler

Modifié par dawnstone, 12 juillet 2016 - 05:39 .

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#152134
TheRatPack55

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The situation isn't clear on what Solas' plan will mean for the modern elves.

 

 

The general consensus among fans is that he's going to kill everyone and everything except some nebulous remnant of the Arlathan elves still surviving. The actual lore (see Sandal's Prophecy and the Canticle of Exaltations) has the suggestion in prophecy that the elves will regain their powers, as will the dwarves.

 

Right, thanks, that's pretty much what I expected.



#152135
Bayonet Hipshot

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I made this post over at General Discussion (Spoilers) and in DA Reddit.

 

General Discussion (Spoilers):- https://forum.biowar...-andrastianism/

 

DA Reddit:- https://www.reddit.c...ritism_towards/

 

It is quite long since it is literally all my thoughts on the matter and it includes thoughts expressed by many here but I have made it as fair and as balanced as I can since Bioware sort of ignore the Dwarven faith as well by inundating us with Andrastian Dwarves and I felt compelled to point that out.

 

I am curious to see how it turns out.



#152136
Ellawynn

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Snip

 

You've opted out of the argument, so i won't trouble you further. Sorry if I got a bit snippy, though. (Um. ignore the fact that I literally snipped your reply. It's for space saving reasons I swear!)

 

 

 

You say it's just because the Dalish aren't main characters, but I think it's just another case of "Screw You, Elves!" The devs clearly don't like elves, so they constantly present "non-elfy" elves as awesome (like Zevran, Fenris, and Sera), while "elfy" elves are depicted as shrewish harpies (Velanna), naive idiots (Merrill), or deluded maniacs (Solas). 

 

 

You've opted out as well, but I had to reply to say this - that's exactly what I've been saying all along. The writers just don't care about them as much. You hit the nail right on the head. I'm not sure why you told me I was wrong and then proceeded to repeat what I was saying as the truth. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't say Solas is depicted as deluded. Weekes obviously adores the character, and went to great lengths (Up to and including making him an LI) in order to make him likable. 

 

Also, you're right to say I don't really care about the elves, but I don't really care about any faction. I tend to like people over groups or organizations.


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#152137
Addictress

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I don't see what the issue about the Dalish is. Of course they have to be quirky and extremely defined by their beliefs - their entire lives and society revolve around particular traditions and ways of thinking.Every character is insane. Anders is insane. Fenris is insane. Isabela is annoying as hell. Merrill isn't alone in being aggravating in some extent. I thought her story with her keeper and clan excellent.

#152138
Bayonet Hipshot

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Anyone still remember this ?

 

 

Solas' flirt with a female Rogue Lavellan line was fascinating for me to listen to:- "You train to flick a dagger or an arrow to its target. The grace with which you move is a pleasing side benefit. You have chosen a path whose steps you do not dislike because it leads to a destination you enjoy. As have I."

 

So I went and made Rogue builds that involves flicking daggers and arrows.

 

Throwing Blades = Flicking daggers. Archery abilities = Flicking arrows. Artificer = I found it to be thematically the best specialization for a Dalish Hunter because it involves traps and since the Humans love calling the Elf Inquisitor Herald of Andraste no matter what Lavellan tells them, becoming an Artificer is sort of a funny joke since Three-Eyes states that Artificers are Makers.

 

Enjoy:- http://www.rpg-gamin...31341656166776a

 

:P


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#152139
Ellawynn

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I don't see what the issue about the Dalish is. Of course they have to be quirky and extremely defined by their beliefs - their entire lives and society revolve around particular traditions and ways of thinking.Every character is insane. Anders is insane. Fenris is insane. Isabela is annoying as hell. Merrill isn't alone in being aggravating in some extent. I thought her story with her keeper and clan excellent.

 

I think the reaction of Merrill's clan is pretty over-the-top, and a weak attempt to make Merrill's story more tragic. But since it's far from the only bit of bad writing in that game, I'd say it speaks more to the issues with DA2 than the writers' opinions on the Dalish.

 

Other than that I agree. I felt like the games always made it clear that the elves are wrongfully oppressed and should be aided. I mean, it stonewalls every attempt to actually do that, but the games stonewall anything that would allow the player to deviate from their story.


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#152140
midnight tea

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I'm starting to think you and I should cease this topic, Lobsel. Clearly, just because Solas is elven and tied to the elves doesn't mean Solas fans care about Thedas elves.

 

Oh, that is just obnoxious :angry: Just because people don't share your views on the matter doesn't mean that that they "don't care".

 

On the contrary - how elves are or are treated by the narrative makes me like them even more, and in many regards makes me feel even more for them and their situation. That you don't share my view and apparently want the elves to be treated by story to be even more special and important than they already are is all fine and good. But don't insinuate malice or lack of interest or care for that part of story. You're no better that way than those who accuse those who happen to like Solas for hating all modern people of Thedas....


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#152141
Bayonet Hipshot

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So there's a three way fight between Midnight Tea, Lobsel and Ghost Gal ? Can I be the referee ?  :P

 

On a serious note, it is perfectly okay to not like Solas because he hates Dalish Elves. I mean, the Dalish are his creation, the result of the Veil going up. If anything, Solas behaves a lot like the Maker. The Maker turned away from his creation when they did not act according to what he wants and likewise, Solas chooses to turn his back on the Dalish for the same reason. 



#152142
Xilizhra

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Oh, that is just obnoxious :angry: Just because people don't share your views on the matter doesn't mean that that they "don't care".

 

On the contrary - how elves are or are treated by the narrative makes me like them even more, and in many regards makes me feel even more for them and their situation. That you don't share my view and apparently want the elves to be treated by story to be even more special and important than they already are is all fine and good. But don't insinuate malice or lack of interest or care for that part of story. You're no better that way than those who accuse those who happen to like Solas for hating all modern people of Thedas....

Does it not? We might be wrong, but then again, we might not be.

 

So here's my question: would you continue enjoying the story if the Dalish stopped getting crapped on?


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#152143
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Does it not? We might be wrong, but then again, we might not be.
 
So here's my question: would you continue enjoying the story if the Dalish stopped getting crapped on?

I don't get what you were referring in the first part. Bioware stomping on the dalish?
The question wasn't referred to me, but I like (I'm not a supporter, since I don't have any favourite faction) the dalish, regardless of the 'stomping' (I don't think the reveal of the Evanuris and Arlathan are stomping though). I'll be fine either way.

For whatever it's worth, I think that if the dalish will be present in some forms in DA4 they might be portrayed as 'positive' since I think it's more likely they'll go against Solas. Though I'm not sure you, Lobsel or Ghost will see this as positive.

#152144
Xilizhra

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I don't get what you were referring in the first part. Bioware stomping on the dalish?
The question wasn't referred to me, but I like (I'm not a supporter, since I don't have any favourite faction) the dalish, regardless of the 'stomping' (I don't think the reveal of the Evanuris and Arlathan are stomping though). I'll be fine either way.

For whatever it's worth, I think that if the dalish will be present in some forms in DA4 they might be portrayed as 'positive' since I think it's more likely they'll go against Solas. Though I'm not sure you, Lobsel or Ghost will see this as positive.

What needs to happen, ultimately, is for Solas' plan to be at least partially realized and the elves given a brighter future. I don't consider that negotiable.



#152145
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What needs to happen, ultimately, is for Solas' plan to be at least partially realized and the elves given a brighter future. I don't consider that negotiable.

I think there are chances you'll be disappointed, expecially since we have no clue Solas' plan will favour the modern elves, or of they're considered the same as the rest of the mortals. It can go both way, and I don't think either path is unreasonable.

#152146
Xilizhra

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I think there are chances you'll be disappointed, expecially since we have no clue Solas' plan will favour the modern elves, or of they're considered the same as the rest of the mortals. It can go both way, and I don't think either path is unreasonable.

Theoretically, it could be possible to accept not screwing with the Veil provided that the elves are guaranteed a better future.



#152147
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Theoretically, it could be possible to accept not screwing with the Veil provided that the elves are guaranteed a better future.

It's not that easy though. Solas will be the antagonist in the next game and a lot of elves joined him. I don't think that things will go well for city elves after this plot. That's what I fear.
Maybe it can go better for the dalish if they go against Solas.

#152148
Xilizhra

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It's not that easy though. Solas will be the antagonist in the next game and a lot of elves joined him. I don't think that things will go well for city elves after this plot. That's what I fear.
Maybe it can go better for the dalish if they go against Solas.

If Bioware stabs us again, I fear the only option will be insurrection. However, I'm still hoping for Solas being an optional antagonist, like Anders.



#152149
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If Bioware stabs us again, I fear the only option will be insurrection. However, I'm still hoping for Solas being an optional antagonist, like Anders.

Insurrection?
It's a bit different from Anders, but it's possible. How do you think/want to be done? That you can stop him from following his plan or that we can support him? That would lead to a outcome completely different from the path of opposing him.

#152150
Xilizhra

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Insurrection?

It depends on how strongly my kin feel on this subject.

 

 

It's a bit different from Anders, but it's possible. How do you think/want to be done? That you can stop him from following his plan or that we can support him? That would lead to a outcome completely different from the path of opposing him.

Find a way to accomplish some of what he wants without killing everyone.