153429 réponses à ce sujet

[midnight tea]

Does it not? We might be wrong, but then again, we might not be.

 

So here's my question: would you continue enjoying the story if the Dalish stopped getting crapped on?

 

Does it not "what"? I'm not sure what you're addressing here. That we may or may be wrong about liking Solas, or not thinking that his plan may not be all about doom and gloom? It still does not follow that liking Solas means that those who do hate modern Thedas or its people.

 

And here's the thing - I don't think the Dalish are being particularly "crapped on". No more or less than any other group is being "crapped on", at the very least. I think that's the major difference between me and people who, for whatever reason, apparently want the elves and especially the Dalish, to be more special than they already are. While I myself like the fact that even though elves are a special, magical race with special magical, history and likely special, magical destiny... they're still just people.

[Xilizhra]

And here's the thing - I don't think the Dalish are being particularly "crapped on". No more or less than any other group is being "crapped on", at the very least. I think that's the major difference between me and people who, for whatever reason, apparently want the elves and especially the Dalish, to be more special than they already are. While I myself like the fact that even though elves are a special, magical race with special magical, history and likely special, magical destiny... they're still just people.

Ah, yes. Forgive me, but I'm not sure who else is being consistently denied any kind of homeland, positive representation of their beliefs, and a lack of ****** stupid attempted retcons.

[The Elder King]

It depends on how strongly my kin feel on this subject.
 
 

Find a way to accomplish some of what he wants without killing everyone.

Your kin?
I understand criticizing Bioware, being disappointed or angry,, but going further seems too extreme to me. It's a fictional race in a videogame in the end.

But he already pointed out he doesn't care much about other races. Why would he decide to find a different path?

[Xilizhra]

Your kin?
I understand criticizing Bioware, being disappointed or angry,, but going further seems too extreme to me. It's a fictional race in a videogame in the end.

The other people who agree with me about the Dalish, such as LobselVith and Ghost Gal. Ironically, I'm the most optimistic of these three, but I also really hate giving up.

 

 

But he already pointed out he doesn't care much about other races. Why would he decide to find a different path?

He was improving on that subject. He can continue to improve.

[midnight tea]

Ah, yes. Forgive me, but I'm not sure who else is being consistently denied any kind of homeland, positive representation of their beliefs, and a lack of ****** stupid attempted retcons.

 

....Since when "consistently denied a homeland" is a "negative representation" ? That's a stretch if I've ever seen one, especially given how many centuries, or sometimes even millenia, some of IRL nations or ethnicities searched for their place in the world (add to that the fact that the story of elves or DA ain't even over).

 

Also - they get no different treatment when it comes to representation of their beliefs than the others are, nor are getting any more or less retcons. Heck, compared to Andrastians the elves in DAI actually were vindicated in terms of which people have more of an accurate view of the past - their gods may have not been gods, or at the very least they don't appear to be "gods" that are benevolent, but they have undeniably existed and THEY have shaped the world, not the Maker.

 

Heck, the myth of humans who put elves on their knees also got wiped. So is human/Andrastian understanding of the world. Basically *everybody* got hit by the revelations and it's very apparent that even if some groups were right about some things, they only have fragments of real picture that is now being fastened together.

[The Elder King]

The other people who agree with me about the Dalish, such as LobselVith and Ghost Gal. Ironically, I'm the most optimistic of these three, but I also really hate giving up.
 
 

He was improving on that subject. He can continue to improve.

Understood, though I don't get what you mean with insurrection.

[Xilizhra]

....Since when "consistently denied a homeland" is a "negative representation" ? That's a stretch if I've ever seen one, especially given how many centuries, or sometimes even millenia, some of our IRL nations searched for their place in the world.

Yes, and it sucked for them as it sucks for us (to a lesser degree).

 

 

Also - they get no different treatment when it comes to representation of their beliefs than the others are, nor are getting any more or less retcons. Heck, compared to Andrastians the elves in DAI actually were vindicated in terms of which people have more of an accurate view of the past - they gods may have not gods, or at the very least they don't appear to be "gods" that are benevolent, but they have undeniably existed and THEY have shaped the world, not the Maker.

 

Heck, the myth of humans who put elves on their knees also got wiped. So is human/Andrastian understanding of the world. Basically *everybody* got hit by the revelations and it's very apparent that even if some groups were right about some things, they only have fragments of real picture that is now being fastened together.

Ultimately meaningless until the Chantry accepts this and collapses, or unless the Evanuris turn out to not be so bad after all. It is, either way, not enough to compensate for the utter shafting the Dalish got with the Creators.

[midnight tea]

Yes, and it sucked for them as it sucks for us (to a lesser degree).

 

... Still has nothing do with "negative representation", merely a crappy situation they're in. They're not the first who are in such crappy situation though, nor are the last. The dwarven Casteless, for example, are still arguably the group of people that have it absolute worst from any Thedosian people I currently know of.

 

 

 

Ultimately meaningless until the Chantry accepts this and collapses, or unless the Evanuris turn out to not be so bad after all. It is, either way, not enough to compensate for the utter shafting the Dalish got with the Creators.

 

 

Since when "Dalish being proven wrong about certain things" equals "Chantry being proven wrong is not enough - it has to accept it and collapse!"?

 

Now, I myself am not the biggest fan of the Chantry, but I smell the obvious bias here. Plus - we don't even know where the story is going, but we may as well see the utter collapse of the *whole* realm, or at least the current beliefs about its nature and so on, so your wish may yet be fulfilled... but I wouldn't bet on the Dalish being "spared". It's obvious from the story that nobody is. Everybody will still be served some more bitter pills they'd have to swallow, be it elves, humans, dwarves or Qunari.

[Xilizhra]

... Still has nothing do with "negative representation", merely a crappy situation they're in. They're not the first who are in such crappy situation though, nor are the last. The dwarven Casteless, for example, are still arguably the group of people that have it absolute worst from any Thedosian people I currently know of.

This is true, and also bad, but you can improve their lot with Bhelen.

 

 

Since when "Dalish being proven wrong about certain things" equals "Chantry being proven wrong is not enough - it has to accept it and collapse!"?

 

Now, I myself am not the biggest fan of the Chantry, but I smell the obvious bias here. Plus - we don't even know where the story is going, but we may as well see the utter collapse of the *whole* realm, or at least the current beliefs about its nature and so on, so your wish may yet be fulfilled... but I wouldn't bet on the Dalish being "spared". It's obvious from the story that nobody is. Everybody will still be served some more bitter pills they'd have to swallow, be it elves, humans, dwarves or Qunari.

People being given equal amounts "bitter pills" is not equality, because the Dalish have been pre-bitter pilled for our convenience. This is why arguments of equivalent actions done to all parties make no sense, because the parties are not equivalent to begin with. If equality was what we were going for, the Dalish would be shooting up right now; instead, the story seems to want to enforce systematic inequality.

[midnight tea]

This is true, and also bad, but you can improve their lot with Bhelen.

 

Even with Bhelen on throne it's implied in DAI and Descent that the situation in Orzammar is dramatic, with famine and riots, in a city closed and surrounded by increasing darkspawn numbers.

 

 

 

People being given equal amounts "bitter pills" is not equality, because the Dalish have been pre-bitter pilled for our convenience. This is why arguments of equivalent actions done to all parties make no sense, because the parties are not equivalent to begin with. If equality was what we were going for, the Dalish would be shooting up right now; instead, the story seems to want to enforce systematic inequality.

 

The only thing that makes no sense here is the strange assumption that "the Dalish should be shooting up right now". No they wouldn't. The story isn't about them, or making things better specifically for them; they're just a subset of elves... and one that oftentimes doesn't even see other elves as either their kin or their equals. You seriously have no problem with that?

 

And elves as a whole are most definitely shooting up - maybe not in terms of bettering their situation in Thedas as of now, but most definitely in terms for importance to the plot; and their story ain't over yet, and in fact seems to be going even more elf-centric than it was ever before. And whatever we're going to do about ancient elves, considering how past events are important to the present, and that they're a magical race in a world where we're probably going to decide the fate of magic, it's obvious that it'll impact elves as well.

[Xilizhra]

Even with Bhelen on throne it's implied in DAI and Descent that the situation in Orzammar is dramatic, with famine and riots, in a city closed and surrounded by increasing darkspawn numbers.

Right, but that's just part of the wider chaos the Inquisitor is fixing.

 

 

The only thing that makes no sense here is the strange assumption that "the Dalish should be shooting up right now". No they wouldn't. The story isn't about them, or making things better specifically for them; they're just a subset of elves... and one that oftentimes doesn't even see other elves as either their kin or their equals. You seriously have no problem with that?

True. I should clarify that all elves should be shooting up right now. If equality is what Bioware is going for, rather than the reinforcement and arguable celebration of systematic inequality.

 

 

And elves as a whole are most definitely shooting up - maybe not in terms of bettering their situation in Thedas as of now, but most definitely in terms for importance to the plot; and their story ain't over yet, and in fact seems to be going even more elf-centric than it was ever before. And whatever we're going to do about ancient elves, considering how past events are important to the present, and that they're a magical race in a world where we're probably going to decide the fate of magic, it's obvious that it'll impact elves as well.

Plot importance means nothing if they're still going to be stuck in a ****-filled hole by the end of the fourth game.

[vertigomez]

People being given equal amounts "bitter pills" is not equality, because the Dalish have been pre-bitter pilled for our convenience. This is why arguments of equivalent actions done to all parties make no sense, because the parties are not equivalent to begin with. If equality was what we were going for, the Dalish would be shooting up right now; instead, the story seems to want to enforce systematic inequality.

The story seems to want to enforce tragedy. That's why Arlathan fell and the elves are disenfranchised. That's why Orzammar is fighting a bloody, neverending war with the darkspawn and their population is rapidly dwindling. That's why every religion has the rug ripped out from under their faith in DAI. That's why slavery exists in Tevinter, why Kirkwall is set on a Hellmouth, why the Circle conflict exists at all, why Solas is willing to sacrifice this world for one that's long gone, why Hawke's whole family can die horribly and painfully, why Anders blows up the Chantry no matter what you do, why Cullen is tortured by blood mages and abominations, why the "Tranquil Solution" came up, why the Qunari seem to be some kind of mad dragon experiment gone wrong.

It's storytelling. Horrific, unfair things happen to people in Dragon Age because it's a horrific, unfair setting.

[Iakus]

 

And elves as a whole are most definitely shooting up - maybe not in terms of bettering their situation in Thedas as of now, but most definitely in terms for importance to the plot; and their story ain't over yet, and in fact seems to be going even more elf-centric than it was ever before. And whatever we're going to do about ancient elves, considering how past events are important to the present, and that they're a magical race in a world where we're probably going to decide the fate of magic, it's obvious that it'll impact elves as well.

It's my belief that if we want to see elves on the rise, we should look to the city elves rather than the Dalish.  They are by far the majority of the elves, and even if they have forgotten most of their past, they are, I believe, the future of the People

[Xilizhra]

The story seems to want to enforce tragedy. That's why Arlathan fell and the elves are disenfranchised. That's why Orzammar is fighting a bloody, neverending war with the darkspawn and their population is rapidly dwindling. That's why every religion has the rug ripped out from under their faith in DAI. That's why slavery exists in Tevinter, why Kirkwall is set on a Hellmouth, why the Circle conflict exists at all, why Solas is willing to sacrifice this world for one that's long gone, why Hawke's whole family can die horribly and painfully, why Anders blows up the Chantry no matter what you do, why Cullen is tortured by blood mages and abominations, why the "Tranquil Solution" came up, why the Qunari seem to be some kind of mad dragon experiment gone wrong.

It's storytelling. Horrific, unfair things happen to people in Dragon Age because it's a horrific, unfair setting.

Then we should have the chance to fix this. I can accept no other alternate outcome, and I would hope to rally those who agree with me. The story should not end in tragedy.

 

 

 

It's my belief that if we want to see elves on the rise, we should look to the city elves rather than the Dalish.  They are by far the majority of the elves, and even if they have forgotten most of their past, they are in a better position to adapt to the future.

NO. If anything, the two elven subsets should be treated equally. Preferably minus Andrastianism.

[Addictress]

I think the reaction of Merrill's clan is pretty over-the-top, and a weak attempt to make Merrill's story more tragic. But since it's far from the only bit of bad writing in that game, I'd say it speaks more to the issues with DA2 than the writers' opinions on the Dalish.

Other than that I agree. I felt like the games always made it clear that the elves are wrongfully oppressed and should be aided. I mean, it stonewalls every attempt to actually do that, but the games stonewall anything that would allow the player to deviate from their story.

DA2 had the best writing in the series. People need to stop automatically turning up their noses at over-the-top drama, which does have its place in some types of theatrical expression.

[vertigomez]

Then we should have the chance to fix this. I can accept no other alternate outcome, and I would hope to rally those who agree with me. The story should not end in tragedy.

WHY? Because you like elves? I like dwarves. If Orzammar falls, it'll be heartbreaking and tragic. A punch in the feels. But it'll be a damn good story.

How are you going to "rally" people to force Bioware to write the story you want?
 

NO. If anything, the two elven subsets should be treated equally. Preferably minus Andrastianism.

You are literally dismissing the faith of hundreds of thousands of elves.

[Xilizhra]

WHY? Because you like elves? I like dwarves. If Orzammar falls, it'll be heartbreaking and tragic. A punch in the feels. But it'll be a damn good story.

How are you going to "rally" people to force Bioware to write the story you want?

I'm working on it. No need to do anything premature, the game is far from out yet. I continue to hold out hope for it to not betray us.

 

 

You are literally dismissing the faith of hundreds of thousands of elves.

The faith of slavers and mass murderers forced upon them. The only mitigating circumstance is Leliana's reforms, and even then, the institutional bigotry towards members of other faiths is unacceptable.

[lynroy]

Arms clipping through each other? Who cares when your smooching in the Fade!

Spoiler

 

Totally still addicted to flycam.

[Iakus]

 

NO. If anything, the two elven subsets should be treated equally. Preferably minus Andrastianism.

Plus or minus whatever, the Dalish are, quite literally, a fringe group.  And one that's dying out.  They've held onto what remains of Elvhen culture, which is quite noble.  But too many of them are stuck in the past.  Something Solas seems to be even more guilty of, given his plans.  They're trying to rebuild a world that never actually existed rather than trying to better the one they live in now.

 

City elves, however are developing their own cultures.  Which are a fusion of what Elvhen ways they half-remember and modern human ways.  Heck most of them don't even think of themselves as "elves" or "the People"  They are Orlesian elves, Ferelden elves, Tevinter elves, and so on.  If the elves got a third homeland, would they even be able to come together in a cohesive group again?

 

Humans are here to stay.  Andrastrianism, for better or for worse, is here to stay.  And for better or worse, many elves follow it in one stripe or another.   The same could be said for the Qun, though that's likely to come into conflict with the rest of Thedas in the near future.

 

  What needs to be done is for humans to start treating elves like people rather than "knife ears" Both sides need to accept each other and let the past go.  Tying to tear down the Chantry isn't exactly the way to do that.

[Iakus]

 

The faith of slavers and mass murderers forced upon them. The only mitigating circumstance is Leliana's reforms, and even then, the institutional bigotry towards members of other faiths is unacceptable.

Like the Qunari?  

[Iakus]

WHY? Because you like elves? I like dwarves. If Orzammar falls, it'll be heartbreaking and tragic. A punch in the feels. But it'll be a damn good story.
 

Actually, like the Dalish, I think Orzammar's sun is setting.  Too stuck in tradition and the past.  

 

The surface dwarves are the future!

[Addictress]

Villages in the Bible would stone people to death. Is that over the top? Not everyone is a jaded, disillusioned, cool-minded suburban white 15-year-old. People in certain societies can go to extremes. Because of extreme beliefs. That they actually believe, and act on. Yes, it's ugly.

[Xilizhra]

Plus or minus whatever, the Dalish are, quite literally, a fringe group.  And one that's dying out.  They've held onto what remains of Elvhen culture, which is quite noble.  But too many of them are stuck in the past.  Something Solas seems to be even more guilty of, given his plans.  They're trying to rebuild a world that never actually existed rather than trying to better the one they live in now.

 

City elves, however are developing their own cultures.  Which are a fusion of what Elvhen ways they half-remember and modern human ways.  Heck most of them don't even think of themselves as "elves" or "the People"  They are Orlesian elves, Ferelden elves, Tevinter elves, and so on.  If the elves got a third homeland, would they even be able to come together in a cohesive group again?

 

Humans are here to stay.  Andrastrianism, for better or for worse, is here to stay.  And for better or worse, many elves follow it in one stripe or another.   The same could be said for the Qun, though that's likely to come into conflict with the rest of Thedas in the near future.

 

  What needs to be done is for humans to start treating elves like people rather than "knife ears" Both sides need to accept each other and let the past go.  Tying to tear down the Chantry isn't exactly the way to do that.

Humans are never going to treat elves equally. ****, we haven't even mastered that yet with human races IRL. The elves need a homeland where they can gather strength and protect those who would otherwise be victimized; that was the necessity behind the creation of Israel, and it's the necessity that for that which must be built for the elves.
 

 

Like the Qunari?  

Yes, but the Qun has even more institutional bigotry, so the point is moot.

[Iakus]

Humans are never going to treat elves equally. ****, we haven't even mastered that yet with human races IRL. The elves need a homeland where they can gather strength and protect those who would otherwise be victimized; that was the necessity behind the creation of Israel, and it's the necessity that for that which must be built for the elves.
 

True enough about how humans don't even treat other humans equally.  But in Thedas, humans treat dwarves all right, so this isn't an insurmountable challenge.

 

But it is one that will take years.  Generations even, to come to fruition.

 

 

Yes, but the Qun has even more institutional bigotry, so the point is moot.

So it's okay to be bigoted towards bigoted religions?  yeah that will totally end cycles of hatred

[Xilizhra]

True enough about how humans don't even treat other humans equally.  But in Thedas, humans treat dwarves all right, so this isn't an insurmountable challenge.

 

But it is one that will take years.  Generations even, to come to fruition.

Then tell me why Alistair can't marry a dwarf noble.

 

 

So it's okay to be bigoted towards bigoted religions?  yeah that will totally end cycles of hatred

The Qun's principles make it as incompatible with the rest of life in Thedas as an archdemon.

 

 

Villages in the Bible would stone people to death. Is that over the top? Not everyone is a jaded, disillusioned, cool-minded suburban white 15-year-old. People in certain societies can go to extremes. Because of extreme beliefs. That they actually believe, and act on. Yes, it's ugly.

Yes, and those cultures/beliefs deserve nothing less than utter eradication.