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[The Elder King]

Lack of motivation?! *facepalm* pretty much the only game with motivation and motivations for every character besides some Disney good vs. evil crap
Hhnnngg

What are you referring to?

[Iakus]

Humans aren't forbidden to marry dwarves, as they're not forbidden to marry elves. It's human royalty that can't marry dwarves or elves or qunari and retaining their titles. It's a specific situation where marriage between different races isn't possible.
Assuming the elves have their own realm, even with good relationships with humans, they wouldn't allow marriages with humans le dwarves.

My Aeducan Warden proposed to Anora.  She seriously considered it before rejecting it as unworkable.

[Ellawynn]

Lack of motivation?! *facepalm* pretty much the only game with motivation and motivations for every character besides some Disney good vs. evil crap

Hhnnngg

 

I'm not talking about what motivates the characters. Let me give you an example - the expedition quest in DA2. Hawke needs to do it because they're a poor no-name refugee. Cool! I'm on board. What do I have to do? Get some maps and 50 gold? Awesome. Done. Maps, gold, all of it. Let's go!

 

And then the game told me that I... had to get the Warden maps. O-kay, thought I did that already. Maybe I misunderstood. Turned around, went back, talked to Anders. He had nothing to say to me. I guess I DID get the maps from him.

 

But the game goes "You have to get the Warden maps before you can leave on the expedition!"

 

And I go "??? Are you bugged? Is this game just that broken? Why's it not letting me progress? Do I have to reload my save?"

 

But you know what the real problem was? I hadn't gone to see Petrice - which is a "main" quest that, until you've completed it, will prevent you from progressing in the game. The game doesn't tell you any of this of course. It doesn't give you any reason to care about Petrice outside of getting money - which, if you already have all the money you need, means the quest is utterly irrelevant. Instead the game just pretends like you haven't fulfilled all it's requirements for progression.

 

But why should I care about Petrice? Why is her quest so vital that I can't go on my expedition without doing it? I get that Petrice and her storyline are vital to the plot of Act 2 - but Hawke doesn't know that, and the player sure as hell doesn't either. So, since Hawke lacks clairvoyance, the game straight forces you to do the quest without giving you any indication that it must be done or is in any way related to what you're currently trying to accomplish.

 

That's just one example of what I'm talking about. Too many times DA2 had me asking myself "Why am I doing this again? Why do I care?" That's what I mean about lack of motivation - lack of player motivation.

[Elessara]

Does it not? We might be wrong, but then again, we might not be.

 

So here's my question: would you continue enjoying the story if the Dalish stopped getting crapped on?

 

This question makes no sense to me as part of the argument is that some of us do NOT, in fact, think the Dalish are being crapped on.

[LobselVith8]

Based on our conversation after that post, I don't think she was referring to that. She mentioned you and Ghost as Well.

 

Ah, I see the context. I don't think it's unusual for Xil to point out people dropping Dragon Age and opting out of buying any new games or DLC because of how they handle certain storylines handled. Players like KnightofPhoenix, TEWR, and Addai left, and they're certainly not the only ones. I know TEWR criticized how the developers handled the dwarven elements to the story and the dwarves in general, and Addai criticized how the developers handled the elven elements, particularly the Dalish in the vanilla game and JoH.

 

I think that was simply what Xil was aiming at in addressing how people will simply opt out. Frankly, that's pretty much the tactic that any player would chose if he or she isn't satisfied with the direction a series is going on.

[Ghost Gal]

The banter for Merrill was written with other Writers though, Gaider (Morrigan's writer) included.
@Ghost: I don't completely agree. The fact that they gave us the option of playing an elf in DAO doesn't mean that they shouldn't have written the elven Gods to be villains. I don't think this is unprofessional.
It's true though that post DAO their portrayals of the elves/dalish became more negative, but it should be noted that we weren't supposed to be able to play as an elf in DAI. The plot was written with a human perspective. That's the problems in adding playable races during development.

 

Making all races playable in DAO served to get players emotionally invested in them and their struggles, so turning around and resolving some factions' struggles but just sh*tting on other factions even more is a sh*tty move. Just like making race selection an option for one game but then turning around and removing it next game.

 

Also, just because elves weren't originally meant to be playable race doesn't mean it's right to make them target practice for the. I'm going to repeat what Yahtzee said about DA2, and say, "Much like the first game, [Dragon Age] is all about the representational messages, and can't go more than five minutes without someone being really heavy-handedly racist toward mages, elves, dwarves, goldfish, etc. Which is why I find it somewhat ironic that you're only allowed to play as a human this time around, when the first game let you pick from a whole Burger King Kid's Club of racism backstories."

 

Sure, strip elves as an option to play after making them playable for previous games and then make them target practice for the human-only character. Also, make them an oppressed minority under humans' boots and then portray them as being completely deserving of being oppressed by the human player character. Those minorities deserve to get stepped on!

 

You've opted out as well, but I had to reply to say this - that's exactly what I've been saying all along. The writers just don't care about them as much. You hit the nail right on the head. I'm not sure why you told me I was wrong and then proceeded to repeat what I was saying as the truth. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't say Solas is depicted as deluded. Weekes obviously adores the character, and went to great lengths (Up to and including making him an LI) in order to make him likable. 

 

Also, you're right to say I don't really care about the elves, but I don't really care about any faction. I tend to like people over groups or organizations.

 

No, you said BioWare doesn't go to any trouble of portraying Dalish fairly or sympathetically because they wouldn't go to any trouble for characters that aren't "main characters," but I gave plenty of examples of them going to lots of trouble for characters and factions that aren't "main characters" either, so that doesn't excuse their treatment of Dalish.

 

Also, I didn't just "repeat what you said as the truth." You said it was completely fine and jim-dandy that they portray the Dalish the way they do, I said I think it's crappy and unprofessional what they do.

 

Oh, that is just obnoxious  Just because people don't share your views on the matter doesn't mean that that they "don't care".

 

On the contrary - how elves are or are treated by the narrative makes me like them even more, and in many regards makes me feel even more for them and their situation. That you don't share my view and apparently want the elves to be treated by story to be even more special and important than they already are is all fine and good. But don't insinuate malice or lack of interest or care for that part of story. You're no better that way than those who accuse those who happen to like Solas for hating all modern people of Thedas....

 

I don't want them to be important or special (if anything, their lack of importance and specialness is what drew me to them in the first place; and I'd also argue that their LORE being special in DAI doesn't make THEM special, especially since only humans like Morrigan and Flemeth are deemed worthy to be experts on their lore or divinity), I want their situation to be acknowledged as unjust and I want to see their situation improved. What a pipe dream, right?

 

Instead, the games keep coming up with new reasons to say why they bring their plight completely on themselves (Red Crossing, Ameridan's tale of elves being stupid and unreasonable for not trusting Drakkon the Conqueror, etc), and why they deserve to get punished worse than they already have (agents of Fen'Harel, anyone?).

 

Apparently no one else here feels that way. You're totally fine with elves continuing to be vilified and victim-blamed for the continued crimes against them, and continue to be punished for daring to reach higher. 

[CapricornSun]

Art break. 

 

'Fire and Ice'. More sexy artwork of modern AU rocker Solas and Lavellan. 

Spoiler

 

Close up:

 

Source: https://fenrirsruthl...f-the-notes-and

 

"I was Solas first. Fen'Harel came later."

Spoiler

Source: http://destinyaposta...arel-came-later

 

Gorgeous portrait of Solas.

Spoiler

Source: https://www.tumblr.c...rt/147292846782

[The Elder King]

@Ghost: but it's not necessarily true that they turned things around. The plans for the Evanuris might have been present since the start of the series (expecially of the Forgotten ones are Old Gods). I don't think they should've changed this because we were allowed to play and care for the elves/dalish. As I don't think they should've scrapped playable races because The elven religion turns out to be a distorted version of a bad truth. They have the right to portray them as they wish, as people have the right to criticize and abandon the series if they don't like how they are portraying elves and their faith.
I do think they should've changed a bit of things on Inquisition, but I don't think adding races means they have to change the focus on humans or not reveal the true nature of the Evanuris.
And while I don't like it, just because the first game had them doesn't mean playable races should be present in DA2.

[The Elder King]

As for elves being agents of Solas and the probably enemies in the next game, we don't know if Solas plans will affect the elves positively. It's normal some might follow him, even in the case he's lying about it. Also, they might put the dalish against Solas, so that they're the ally against the enemy.

Other then that, let's keep in mind that in the former games the enemy factions were mostly humans. Loghain and his nobles, Meredith (there's Orsino, but he's a rapresentation of a human organization), the red templars and the Venatori.

[Ellawynn]

 

 

No, you said BioWare doesn't go to any trouble of portraying Dalish fairly or sympathetically because they wouldn't go to any trouble for characters that aren't "main characters," but I gave plenty of examples of them going to lots of trouble for characters and factions that aren't "main characters" either, so that doesn't excuse their treatment of Dalish.

 

Also, I didn't just "repeat what you said as the truth." You said it was completely fine and jim-dandy that they portray the Dalish the way they do, I said I think it's crappy and unprofessional what they do.

 

 

Yeah, and I said I think they're not main characters because BioWare doesn't care about them as much. Which I explained in both the latter half of that post, and in several posts before. If you did not read those posts, fine, but I would caution against telling someone what they said when you didn't read it all yourself. 

 

Also to clarify - as I established with Lob (Who I was having the conversation with) "main character" in this context meant the faction that receives the most attention and complexity. It is not referring to individual characters like Hawke and Marethari.

 

And fair enough on the professional point.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

My Aeducan Warden proposed to Anora.  She seriously considered it before rejecting it as unworkable.

I've never played a male Aeducan (my canon is female). Is that actually in the game or are you stating a headcanon???

[LobselVith8]

I've never played a male Aeducan (my canon is female). Is that actually in the game or are you stating a headcanon???

 

Anora will always appear shocked if you propose to her, but she gives a different reason for why it won't work if you're not a human noble.

[Xilizhra]

As for elves being agents of Solas and the probably enemies in the next game, we don't know if Solas plans will affect the elves positively. It's normal some might follow him, even in the case he's lying about it. Also, they might put the dalish against Solas, so that they're the ally against the enemy.

Other then that, let's keep in mind that in the former games the enemy factions were mostly humans. Loghain and his nobles, Meredith (there's Orsino, but he's a rapresentation of a human organization), the red templars and the Venatori.

Given that we're in the nation most full of hostile humans in the next game, things will be horribly, horribly skewed if they don't make up the majority of the humanoid enemies.

[Ellawynn]

Given that we're in the nation most full of hostile humans in the next game, things will be horribly, horribly skewed if they don't make up the majority of the humanoid enemies.

It's also right next door to the nation full of hostile non-humans, who have already stuck their nose in the overarching plot with Solas, have attacked human nations before, and openly admit to planning an invasion of the South.

 

Just sayin'.

[Xilizhra]

It's also right next door to the nation full of the hostile non-humans, who have already stuck their nose in the overarching plot with Solas, have attacked human nations before, and openly admit to planning an invasion of the South.

 

Just sayin'.

Okay, fine, we could have qunari as well. But definitely not elves.

[The Elder King]

Given that we're in the nation most full of hostile humans in the next game, things will be horribly, horribly skewed if they don't make up the majority of the humanoid enemies.

We don't know yet if Tevinter will be the only country in the next game. And the Qun is right there, so we'll probably face them.
I was mostly referring to the main enemies though. If Solas will be the main antagonist, his faction will be the main enemies in the game, even if not the most present in the game.

[Xilizhra]

We don't know yet if Tevinter will be the only country in the next game. And the Qun is right there, so we'll probably face them.
I was mostly referring to the main enemies though. If Solas will be the main antagonist, his faction will be the main enemies in the game, even if not the most present in the game.

I'm strongly opposed to the idea of Solas being the main antagonist, and in the end, I don't think that he will be. He might be an antagonist, but also a potential ally; if there's going to be a single central antagonist, it'd probably be the qunari.

[LobselVith8]

Okay, fine, we could have qunari as well. But definitely not elves.

 

If it does take place in Tevinter, I imagine a qunari option won't be available (given what Dorian says in Trespasser), and pitting the Qunari as the antagonist would make sense if the player is a citizen of the Imperium.

 

I imagine the Tevinter setting would be more about the Inquisitor trying to find an ally that Solas knows nothing about, or possibly allies, although that also calls into question what would encourage the protagonist to provide the Inquisitor aid.

[The Elder King]

I'm strongly opposed to the idea of Solas being the main antagonist, and in the end, I don't think that he will be. He might be an antagonist, but also a potential ally; if there's going to be a single central antagonist, it'd probably be the qunari.

I doubt the qunari will be the single/main antagonist of the next game and have Solas as a secondary (regardless if optional) one.
It'd be a rehash of Trespasser in a way.
Solas' plot will be central to the next game, I think. I'm not sure if just as an antagonist, but he won't be relegated to a secondary role with the main focus on qunari.

[Xilizhra]

I doubt the qunari will be the single/main antagonist of the next game and have Solas as a secondary (regardless if optional) one.
It'd be a rehash of Trespasser in a way.
Solas' plot will be central to the next game, I think. I'm not sure if just as an antagonist, but he won't be relegated to a secondary role with the main focus on qunari.

Well, Inquisition was a rehash of Legacy with Corypheus as the Big Bad, so there we go. Solas will be a factor, but whatever the case, I very much doubt that Solas will be our main enemy. Or even necessarily an enemy at all.

[The Elder King]

Well, Inquisition was a rehash of Legacy with Corypheus as the Big Bad, so there we go. Solas will be a factor, but whatever the case, I very much doubt that Solas will be our main enemy. Or even necessarily an enemy at all.

It's different. Legacy was used to introduce Corypheus as the main enemy in the next game, and Bioware might have decided to do the same with Trespasser and Da4.
Also, the Inquisition plot was supposed to be the plot of the second game, which they had to delay with the short development time of DA2. The same can't be said for DA4.

[Xilizhra]

It's different. Legacy was used to introduce Corypheus as the main enemy in the next game, and Bioware might have decided to do the same with Trespasser and Da4.
Also, the Inquisition plot was supposed to be the plot of the second game, which they had to delay with the short development time of DA2. The same can't be said for DA4.

Didn't they have to cut a big chunk of Inquisition and put it in the fourth game?

[midnight tea]

Well, Inquisition was a rehash of Legacy with Corypheus as the Big Bad, so there we go. Solas will be a factor, but whatever the case, I very much doubt that Solas will be our main enemy. Or even necessarily an enemy at all.

 

Unlike Corypheus, Solas has been built to appear in the game since the very beginning. His deeds and conflict he presents appear central to entire, overarching story. You're fooling yourself if you think he'd just be treated like Corypheus - precisely because he's not an antagonist like the one Cory was.

[The Elder King]

Didn't they have to cut a big chunk of Inquisition and put it in the fourth game?

I don't recall. I remember Trespasser was supposed to be in the main game.
If it's like that though it's even more a reason why Solas' plot might be central, since Inquisition and Trespasser were building towards that.
I recall Weekes said Solas' story will end in DA4, as Well.

[TheRatPack55]

*snip for space*

 

That's just one example of what I'm talking about. Too many times DA2 had me asking myself "Why am I doing this again? Why do I care?" That's what I mean about lack of motivation - lack of player motivation.

 

Sorry to butt in, I just wanted to say this seems like an issue with poorly implemented game mechanics, which is something that did plague DA2. But as far as player motivation goes, for me personally the story of DA2 was indeed the most motivating. In DAI I'm just checking off the list of fetch quests for completion points, never actually feeling like I need to do the next step. But I suppose this is subjective.

 

_{As for DA4, if it does in fact take place in Tevinter all I want is a well implemented blood mage class, everything else is secondary, just let me play a blood mage again!}