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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#152301
Arvaarad

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I don't mean this offensively, but I think you may be overrating the internet.


Haha, fair enough. I'm probably biased on this topic. Given my job, the internet is like a limb to me.

You can tell when the internet is down at my office because everyone gets up from their desk and wanders around aimlessly. If it's down for more than about 20 minutes, everyone goes home.

Almost everything I do in a day, while not technically impossible without the internet, is impossible in practice. One brain can't store all the necessary information. At peak productivity, I'm making several searches per minute for hours at a time. For all practical purposes, it's an extension of my own mind.

If a cataclysm happened tomorrow, and removed that piece of civilization, I would be as distraught as Solas, but I'd have a similar amount of difficulty explaining why someone should care. As is the case with Thedas, people could (and, at this stage of history, many still do) live perfectly fulfilling lives without "magic".

#152302
DreamerM

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I still say that deciding you have to kill everyone on Earth because the Internet is down is a bit of an overreaction.

 

...ah, who am I kidding? No it isn't! :P


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#152303
Arvaarad

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I still say that deciding you have to kill everyone on Earth because the Internet is down is a bit of an overreaction.

...ah, who am I kidding? No it isn't! :P


A wee bit of an overreaction, yes. :D

While I understand Solas' pain, I still don't agree with his conclusion. But, in fairness, I grew up without the internet. My concept of what it means to be human includes personal experience with the pre-internet era. If the technology was lost, I'd consider myself diminished, but I wouldn't think less of people who spent their entire lives without it.

If I was born a generation or two in the future, and was used to even more integration with technology, who knows?

#152304
LobselVith8

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They don't lose those things. During Broken Circle, the Tranquil in charge of the store room will refuse to leave it, even if you order him to, because he thinks he is safer if he stays where he is. He clearly still has survival instincts. He's not going to go running through floors full of demons and abominations if he doesn't think he has another option. And in Inquisition we hear from more then one Tranquil motivated to find places and ways to apply their (sometimes considerable) knowledge and live useful lives, even in a world that can't help but be freaked out by them.

 

Owain was cleaning the storeroom while the abominations were loose; he also didn't bother to announce his presence to Wynne (which is something she even brings up when she sees him cleaning the storeroom). Personally, he doesn't seem to have much in the way of survival instincts. Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a "templar puppet", and we know Alrik used tranquility to rape mages. There's a very serious disconnect from how someone is prior to tranquility and what happens to them when they become tranquil.


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#152305
midnight tea

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They don't lose those things. During Broken Circle, the Tranquil in charge of the store room will refuse to leave it, even if you order him to, because he thinks he is safer if he stays where he is. He clearly still has survival instincts. He's not going to go running through floors full of demons and abominations if he doesn't think he has another option. And in Inquisition we hear from more then one Tranquil motivated to find places and ways to apply their (sometimes considerable) knowledge and live useful lives, even in a world that can't help but be freaked out by them.

 

Yes they do. Lobsel has already addressed Owain. Tranquils do have intelligence to reach logical (even if that logic is rigid flaws, like in case of Owain) conclusion, or have rudimentary flashes of own desires, but that's about it. After all, didn't you find it odd that we only find ONE Tranquil in Redcliffe left alone by Venatori? Heck, we know what happens with the rest - murdered to make Oculara. None of them had protested when Venatori were ripping skulls out of their heads.

 

Then there's Minaeve who not only spent a lot of time with them in teh CIrcle, but protected them during time of rebellion. She tells Inquisitor that they practically have no emotions, can barely take care of themselves ans have no eans to defend themselves and won't protest or do anything if someone mistreats or hurts them.

When we meet Helisma, she tells us that she researches animals because Minaeve told her so. She only vaguely recalls that she used to like animals. She hardly even remembers what exactly led to her Tranquility. That's a common theme among Tranquil - they hardly remember their past lives or past personalities. They are as close to meat automatons as you can get - someone issues a command and they act. If someone does they get lost and only do basic things, search for someone to give them command (Minaeve, Inquisitor, Samson) or continue with their past assigned duties, like Owain taking care of store room. 

 

 

The Tranquil may not express themselves the way they used to, but they still possess the things that are supposed to be taken from them. And, again, we don't know if these things are specifically linked to the Fade, or if they are just how the Fade pushes through to affect our world. Chicken/egg.

 

If you say that these things are 'chicken/egg' you basically agree with me that these things are irrevocably interconnected :huh:

 

 

Tranquility cuts away something, but whether that something is really related to the Fade itself or if it's a sort of lobotomy that represses the things that a mage usually uses to control the Fade remains to be seen.

 
I'd be curious to know what happens if the Rite is performed on a non-Mage. There's a lot we don't know about Cassandra's vigil, but THAT doesn't involve lyrium, and the Rite does. Again, getting lyrium branded into your head doesn't sound healthy under any circumstances, but is that what makes Tranquil so... tranquil? Because if so, then the Rite just takes your desires and dreams from you, and doesn't really affect your connection to the Fade at all.

 

We DO KNOW what happens if the Rite is performed on a non-mage. I've already mentioned that not so long ago. All future Seekers go through Rite of Tranquility and some of them fail and stay Tranquil. In fact, the first Tranquils we know of were in fact non-mages.

 

From: http://dragonage.wik..._of_Tranquility

 

"We called it the Rite of Tranquility: a mind, branded with lyrium, brought to a state devoid of either emotion or sense of self. The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. A difficult task, considering a Tranquil mind is all but invisible to these beings. The candidate must be pure. If the candidate proved worthy, the spirit would touch his mind... and he would be freed from Tranquility as well as made into a Seeker in truth. If he proved unworthy, Tranquility was permanent.

 
It was only later, when the first mage attempted to join our Order and failed, that we learned Tranquility rendered a mage unable to access his magic, as well as immune to demonic possession. Thus, when the Circle of Magi was born, we gave them the most holy rite we possessed. It was a sacrifice we made for the good of all, so dangerous mages could be spared execution and yet live productive and harmonious lives. What we did not give them was the secret of its reversal. That knowledge, and our ancient bond with the spirits of faith, shall forever be solely ours to keep."
 

 

ot saying the Fade doesn't sound like a great thing to have. Just saying it's a leap from that to the assumption that losing access to the Fade forever would result in everyone being made into vegetables. Life seems to continue on, Fade or no fade, and the Tranqulity only comes into it as as we mortals fumble to control how and when it gets used.

 
Not saying it's impossible that it would make everyone vegetables, mind, just that we can't treat it as an automatic thing. As I've said, I wouldn't put it past Bioware to make "must destroy all magic forever" the Dragon Age version of ME3's "must destroy the mass relays," ending choices. Here's hoping they handle this one better, if it comes to that.
 
Life seems to continue only because most people haven't been cut from the Fade entirely. Most still retain some sort of connection. And we do know that Tranquil hardly ever survive on their own. 
 
Then there's Cole, who tells us that not only Fade is still around modern Thedosians, merely altered (because of the Veil) and that without minds of living spirits have nothing.
 
"It is here but held, constrained by a construct, Veiled. Feelings, memories, minds, mortality: all shape it, a glass to hold water. We flow to the deep. Without you, we have nothing, not even us. That's why we want so much."

 

 

As I've said, he's in dire need of a reality check, both in terms of how insulting he's being and in the "you know, everything doesn't revolve around YOU" variety. After all, Sera insists she's just fine the way she is, and Solas can't talk her into feeling otherwise. All of the "elven glory" stuff isn't interesting to her. Solas might insist it's because people like Sera have no concept of what was lost, but I'm sure he'd rather believe that then consider that she might know exactly what was lost and still not care. The little people just trying to live their lives would, I'm sure, rather be left alone.

 

Considering that he threatens the whole world, I think we've moved past "insulting"...

 

Still at this point this is just getting silly. The whole "he needs reality check" thing. I know that people can be biased no matter how intelligent thy are, but do you really think that someone established to be a very thoughtful, introspective individual didn't think about all these things you now mention? Even Patrick Weekes in one of recent interviews for Can't Talk Media said that he hopes that even people who don't particularly like Solas recognize that he's smarter than that ("on some level most people think he's smart enough that he shouldn't believe his own BS").

 

Which of course brings a question of how much really is at stake that even in a world-state where Inquisitor is a good influence on him he decides to continue with his plan. Needless to say, it's likely a bit more complicated than just a wish to bring things to how they were.

 

Also - *twice* in the game Solas admits (first to Inky, then to Sera after ToM)  that as much as he pities her, he also envies her. So yeah, not that simple...



#152306
Gervaise

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A small point I would take issue with is the one about the Tranquil not objecting when the Venatori ripped the skulls out of their head.   That might suggest to some people that the horror of what the Venatori was less because the Tranquil did not feel emotion about it.    Actually the way the process is described is that they forcibly posses the Tranquil with a spirit/demon immediately before hacking off their head.    This makes it actually more horrific because we know from Asunder that the instant you are touched by a spirit you get your full memory and emotions back.   So at the moment they hack of the head of the ex-Tranquil, they are fully aware.

 

I have a big beef about that particularly quest because no one was ever brought to judgement specifically for that crime and the very fact that Tranquil are usually so passive and gentle made it so much worse that their plight was given such scant attention.   Then if we want to complete the shards quest we are forced to use those abominable skulls.    Tranquil are not robots, they are human beings.   There are people in real life who find it difficult or even impossible to express emotions and they are no less worthy of respect.  


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#152307
Iakus

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We DO KNOW what happens if the Rite is performed on a non-mage. I've already mentioned that not so long ago. All future Seekers go through Rite of Tranquility and some of them fail and stay Tranquil. In fact, the first Tranquils we know of were in fact non-mages.

 

From: http://dragonage.wik..._of_Tranquility

 

"We called it the Rite of Tranquility: a mind, branded with lyrium, brought to a state devoid of either emotion or sense of self. The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. A difficult task, considering a Tranquil mind is all but invisible to these beings. The candidate must be pure. If the candidate proved worthy, the spirit would touch his mind... and he would be freed from Tranquility as well as made into a Seeker in truth. If he proved unworthy, Tranquility was permanent.

 
It was only later, when the first mage attempted to join our Order and failed, that we learned Tranquility rendered a mage unable to access his magic, as well as immune to demonic possession. Thus, when the Circle of Magi was born, we gave them the most holy rite we possessed. It was a sacrifice we made for the good of all, so dangerous mages could be spared execution and yet live productive and harmonious lives. What we did not give them was the secret of its reversal. That knowledge, and our ancient bond with the spirits of faith, shall forever be solely ours to keep."
 

I think the question here is, why doesn't Cassandra have a sunburst brand on her forehead like the Tranquil do?  Did being touched by the spirit heal it?  DO the Seekers have a Tranquility ritual that doesn't use a lyrium brand?


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#152308
Qun00

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Ah, yes. Forgive me, but I'm not sure who else is being consistently denied any kind of homeland, positive representation of their beliefs, and a lack of ****** stupid attempted retcons.


Because Orlais, Par Vollen and Tevinter are given such a positive portrayal...
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#152309
Iakus

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Owain was cleaning the storeroom while the abominations were loose; he also didn't bother to announce his presence to Wynne (which is something she even brings up when she sees him cleaning the storeroom). Personally, he doesn't seem to have much in the way of survival instincts. Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a "templar puppet", and we know Alrik used tranquility to rape mages. There's a very serious disconnect from how someone is prior to tranquility and what happens to them when they become tranquil.

Tranquil have motivations and desires.  What they lack is passion.  That's what makes them so pliant towards authority figures.  They may not want to obey, but unless there is a truly compelling reason to disobey, (like survival), they're generally willing to go along. 

 

And that's why they don't have much in the way of survival instincts.  They want to live, they are willing to take action to keep on living.  But they are generally unwilling to really fight for it.


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#152310
LobselVith8

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Because Orlais, Par Vollen and Tevinter are given such a positive portrayal...


The issues with chevaliers killing elves as part of their initiation rite is never brought up in-game and we see a number of positive portrayals of Orlesians (including Leliana, who was raised in Orlais), Iron Bull talks about how the Qunari accept transgender individuals, and Dorian talks about trying to improve Tevinter (and we even had Wynne in Origins talk positively about seeing the wonders of Minrathous).

#152311
midnight tea

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a.) I think the question here is, why doesn't Cassandra have a sunburst brand on her forehead like the Tranquil do?  

 

b.) Did being touched by the spirit heal it?

 

c.) DO the Seekers have a Tranquility ritual that doesn't use a lyrium brand?

 

a.) she successfully passed the Rite

b.) apparently, yes. And gave her magical powers.

c.) apparently, yes. Seems that the Ritual basically requires for a person to auto-Tranquilize themselves.



#152312
The Elder King

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The issues with chevaliers killing elves as part of their initiation rite is never brought up in-game and we see a number of positive portrayals of Orlesians (including Leliana, who was raised in Orlais), Iron Bull talks about how the Qunari accept transgender individuals, and Dorian talks about trying to improve Tevinter (and we even had Wynne in Origins talk positively about seeing the wonders of Minrathous).

The chevaliers are know since Origins to have so much power that they can do whatever they want to commoners. Qunari's ruthless side is shown plenty of time, and they were put in antagonistic roles twice, and they'll be enemies again. Forcing people to convert isn't a positive trait either.
As for Tevinter, do we seriously have to write every time the games shown the negative sides of Tevinter, Inquisition included? Dorian's desire to improve doesn't change how horrible Tevinter is.

#152313
TheJediSaint

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Elves don't exist. There is no fair or unfair way to portray them.

Same applies to Tevinter, the Qunari, Dwarves, or Freelance.

#152314
midnight tea

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The issues with chevaliers killing elves as part of their initiation rite is never brought up in-game and we see a number of positive portrayals of Orlesians (including Leliana, who was raised in Orlais), Iron Bull talks about how the Qunari accept transgender individuals, and Dorian talks about trying to improve Tevinter (and we even had Wynne in Origins talk positively about seeing the wonders of Minrathous.

 

Are all Orlesians chevaliers? Are you going to put all Oriesians into one bag with Chevaliers? And are you really going to claim that the Winter Palace is portraying them as all nice and good, when everybody keeps complaining about?

 

Plus, the only time something good has been said about Chevaliers was when Cullen said that they were god fighters. Everywhere else we don't really see them being painted in good light. They support Gaspard, which is arguably the worst candidate to Orlesian Throne, and the one Chevalier we see (aside from Michel and the few we see huddled behind safety of walls on Exalted Plains) is a naked dude on Celene's bed that betrayed Gaspard for a night with the Empress -_-

 

Also - why don't you mention that Qun "acceptance" of transgender people is basically when the Qunari deny that the female warrior is a female? How Bull's arc is basically getting himself weaned off terrible ideology of the Qun and becoming Tal-Vashoth - or staying with Qun and betraying Inquisition in trespasser, where Viddasala reveals that they've been planning to sneak-bomb Southern leadership in preparation for invasion they've been planning for years? 

 

It was nothing than a pure display of Qunari insane troll logic.

 

Another thing - I'm not sure why it's a problem for you that there are positive things to say about Tevinter. For me it's a good thing that they're just not a nation of mustache-twirling villains. And that's despte the fact thatit's the Vints after all that are major enemies in DAI - a bunch of crazy supremacists Dorian tells a great portion of Tevinter nobility would silently support. Even some of the "good Vints" are shown to err or are driven by desperation to do terrible things (Alexius basically destroyed the world we see in future Redcliffe).

 

Compared to Orlesians, Vints and Qunari the Dalish were not even half as much as "crapped on", nor continue to be as "crapped on". 


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#152315
DreamerM

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Owain was cleaning the storeroom while the abominations were loose; he also didn't bother to announce his presence to Wynne (which is something she even brings up when she sees him cleaning the storeroom). Personally, he doesn't seem to have much in the way of survival instincts. Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a "templar puppet", and we know Alrik used tranquility to rape mages. There's a very serious disconnect from how someone is prior to tranquility and what happens to them when they become tranquil.

Owain still refuses to leave the storeroom, even if you command him to, because he believes he is safer if he stays where he is. If those aren't survival instincts, I don't know what they would be. Tranquil are easier to abuse, to be sure, but Tranquil are not the mindless automatons that, say, the mind-blasted slaves the Qunari make are. They are capable of higher rational thought, and some measure of free will. The Tranquil owner of "The Wonders of Thedas" seemed to look after himself well enough, and just because Minaeve says they can barely take care of themselves doesn't necessarily make it true. The Tranquil agent in Redcliffe has been looking after himself, and has the smarts to know he chooses to join the Inquisition.

And Cassandra flat-out tells us that her Vigil does not involve lyrium. Somewhere between the Seeker's first use and it's adaptation for use on mages, lyrium was introduced to the process. There's no way that didn't change things. Purging your own mind with weeks of meditation is not the same as having lyrium branded into your forehead.

Besides, if the brand WAS used on Seekers, there is no way someone wouldn't go, "hey, this a lot like the Rite of Tranquility, I wonder what that's about." It would make the secret of the Rite's origin really difficult to hide.
 

 

They want to live, they are willing to take action to keep on living.  But they are generally unwilling to really fight for it.

That's not the same as not having any instincts at all. I think the people who killed tranquil to make landmarks from their skulls probably justified it by saying, "they had no lives worth living for anyway" or "their lives didn't really matter to them." I don't believe that is true.

 

 

If you say that these things are 'chicken/egg' you basically agree with me that these things are irrevocably interconnected :huh:

I say you can't prove that cutting off the Fade forever would affect the non-Fade-interfacing real world half as much as you say it would. I could see it having some other sort of awful side-effect, like maybe killing or making Tranquil every mage currently living, Inquisitor included, if it came to that, but, again, I don't put it past Bioware to force us to do something exactly like that. You have to choose between cutting off the Fade, which will, like, kill every  Templar, eliminate all magic and lyrium, and make Tranquil of every mage on Earth... or the world burns, everyone dies, The End. Game Over.

Really, after ME3's ending, I don't take anything for granted. Don't think Bioware wouldn't do it, they absolutely would.



#152316
Arvaarad

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a.) she successfully passed the Rite
b.) apparently, yes. And gave her magical powers.
c.) apparently, yes. Seems that the Ritual basically requires for a person to auto-Tranquilize themselves.


You know, this leads me to wonder whether the opposite can happen, where someone gets branded but the ritual fails. Tranquility reversals seem to preserve the brand, so I guess it must be a marker to indicate who's tranquil? Could be bad for the templars if the ritual gets botched that way - surprise, I look harmless, but I'm a perfectly functional mage who now has a vendetta against you!

Or... hm, maybe they do it to check for healing. Maybe they do the "real" tranquility ritual, then do the branding last. If the edges of the sunburst start to blur, the subject is able to heal themselves. If it stays sharp, it's another piece of evidence that the ritual worked?

#152317
Qun00

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The issues with chevaliers killing elves as part of their initiation rite is never brought up in-game and we see a number of positive portrayals of Orlesians (including Leliana, who was raised in Orlais), Iron Bull talks about how the Qunari accept transgender individuals, and Dorian talks about trying to improve Tevinter (and we even had Wynne in Origins talk positively about seeing the wonders of Minrathous).


That's a tiny detail. Orlais still is mainly known and remembered for its negative side.

There aren't many more good Orlesians and Dorian is the first character to represent the non-villainous part of Tevinter after two games focusing on the worst in their society.

Tokens, nothing more.

#152318
LobselVith8

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Are all Orlesians chevaliers? Are you going to put all Oriesians into one bag with Chevaliers? And are you really going to claim that the Winter Palace is portraying them as all nice and good, when everybody keeps complaining about?

 

Chevaliers are Orlesian. I was pointing out that Orlesians are hardly vilified en mass. Michel is a notable example of someone who Inquisition portrays as a good person, despite his rather problematic past in TME.

 

Also - why don't you mention that Qun "acceptance" of transgender people is basically when the Qunari deny that the female warrior is a female? How Bull's arc is basically getting himself weaned off terrible ideology of the Qun and becoming Tal-Vashoth - or staying with Qun and betraying Inquisition in trespasser, where Viddasala reveals that they've been planning to sneak-bomb Southern leadership in preparation for invasion they've been planning for years? 

 

Because I chose to address how the scene (and, therefore, the developers) framed Iron Bull taking about the Qun accepting people like Krem.

 

Another thing - I'm not sure why it's a problem for you that there are positive things to say about Tevinter.

 

That's probably because I didn't say that.

 

Compared to Orlesians, Vints and Qunari the Dalish were not even half as much as "crapped on", nor continue to be as "crapped on". 

 

As much as I'd love to discuss how ridiculous your comment is, I'm not going to waste my breath.



#152319
DreamerM

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Just as an asside: Cassandra never mentions a brand being used on her, and she insists that Seekers do not use lyrium...presumably, not even during the Vigil. I imagine if either of these things were involved in the Vigil, it would make the Vigil's secret connection to the Rite of Tranquility really hard to keep secret.

 

Maybe they used them on her while she was deep in meditation and she never knew. But she says a Seeker must be totally alone for the Vigil, so I find that unlikely. Maybe someone figured out that what Seekers did with meditation could be done a lot faster with lyrium, but how, and what that changes about how the Rite really works, remains to be seen. There's a lot we still don't know.



#152320
LobselVith8

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Owain still refuses to leave the storeroom, even if you command him to, because he believes he is safer if he stays where he is. If those aren't survival instincts, I don't know what they would be.

 

You mean the storeroom he's cleaning during an abomination outbreak.

 

If those aren't survival instincts, I don't know what they would be.

 

Owain letting Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier would be an example of Owain showing that he has survival instincts; he didn't do that, and even Wynne pointed out that all he would have needed to do was simply let her know he was on the other side - but he didn't. I don't think cleaning the storeroom during an abomination outbreak is an example of showing survival instincts.



#152321
DreamerM

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Owain letting Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier would be an example of Owain showing that he has survival instincts; he didn't do that, and even Wynne pointed out that all he would have needed to do was simply let her know he was on the other side - but he didn't. I don't think cleaning the storeroom during an abomination outbreak is an example of showing survival instincts.

Owain had no idea anyone was on the other side of that wall, and everyone else in the tower seemed to either be an abomination or a corpse. When he found his way blocked, rather then shout and potentially alert enemies to where he was, he went back to the storeroom, which is a room which could be locked and where he felt safest.

And of course he was cleaning. What else was he going to do? He can't fight, and he can't hide. And again, for an automaton who allegedly has no free will of his own, he still refuses a direct order if you command him to head down to the gate. He's not a puppet. He won't comply with an order he does not agree with.

I know in DA2, they complain that the Tranquil are made into "Templar Puppets" but I would not put it past Meredith's templars to treat them like that regardless of if it was actually true or not. They TELL the Tranquil they have no purpose other then following order, and the Tranquil aren't exactly in a position to argue. We still meet some Tranquil who run shops and travel alone, so they aren't completely helpless.



#152322
LobselVith8

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Owain had no idea anyone was on the other side of that wall, and everyone else in the tower seemed to either be an abomination or a corpse.

 

It's a mage projected barrier, and even Wynne is surprised that Owain didn't simply let her know he was on the other side; he also never claims that he didn't know anyone was on the other side. At no point does Owain say he didn't want to alert enemies, he said he headed to the stockroom because it was "familiar"; that's not what I would consider good survival instincts.



#152323
Gervaise

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This is how Pharamond describes being Tranquil: "I find it ironic the Rite of Tranquility cuts one off from the land of dreams, because a dream is exactly what if feels like.  Everything in a dream is as it should be, nothing is out of place ..... yet part of you knows something is not right.   This isn't your home, this isn't your life.... it isn't you.  Yet one cannot act other than the dream allows.  It follows its own course, and you follow it believing nothing is real.   You will turn the corners and awaken, safe and sound.  Yet you never do.  Instead you are slowly smothered in a crystal-clear silence that has no meaning."

 

Make of the above what you will.


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#152324
midnight tea

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Chevaliers are Orlesian. I was pointing out that Orlesians are hardly vilified en mass. Michel is a notable example of someone who Inquisition portrays as a good person, despite his rather problematic past in TME.

 

Why would they be vilified en masse? No nation is vilified and shouldn't be vilified. And - as I pointed out - Dalish or elves were hardly ever hit as badly as either Orlesians, Vints or Qunari. They have problems, but hardly as many as human or Qunari nations. Or dwarven for that matter. Orzammar is a hellhole and a great deal of dwarves is part of a massive crime syndicate.

 

Because I chose to address how the scene (and, therefore, the developers) framed Iron Bull taking about the Qun accepting people like Krem.

 

Sooo... basically you are cherrypicking and taking ONE scene out of context in order to support your argument?

 

Like, seriously... you are going as far as taking issue with ONE scene, which btw. speaks way more of Iron Bull, rather than his people? Everybody who played DAO knows of Sten's (who is, btw, a model Qunari) confusion with any woman that fights and consider them as freaks of nature - as he does anything that isn't the Qun.

 

That's probably because I didn't say that.

 
Yet you've implied there is a problem. Heck, you even have an issue with ONE vaguely good thing about the Qunari.
 

 

As much as I'd love to discuss how ridiculous your comment is, I'm not going to waste my breath.

 

... because it's obvious that you have no arguments whatsoever. Anybody who has any doubts about it just has to look above.



#152325
LobselVith8

LobselVith8
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Why would they be vilified en masse? No nation is vilified and shouldn't be vilified.

 

Rather than responding to what I write, you're criticizing me for things I never said.

 

And - as I pointed out - Dalish or elves were hardly ever hit as badly as either Orlesians, Vints or Qunari. They have problems, but hardly as many as human or Qunari nations. Or dwarven for that matter. Orzammar is a hellhole and a great deal of dwarves is part of a massive crime syndicate.

 

Ah, the transparent baiting attempt.

 

Sooo... basically you are cherrypicking and taking ONE scene out of context in order to support your argument?

 

It isn't a scene that's taken out of context - it's Iron Bull saying that the Qun accepts people who are transgender in that scene. That's precisely how the scene is framed.

 

Like, seriously... you are going as far as taking issue with ONE scene, which btw. speaks way more of Iron Bull, rather than his people? Everybody who played DAO knows of Sten's (who is, btw, a model Qunari) confusion with any woman that fights and consider them as freaks of nature - as he does anything that isn't the Qun.

 

We're also aware of the rectons with Qunari lore with Tallis and the like, which wasn't the aim of the discussion.

 

Yet you've implied there is a problem. Heck, you even have an issue with ONE vaguely good thing about the Qunari.

 

That seems more like you attempting to justify that you criticized me for something I didn't say.

 

... because it's obvious that you have no arguments whatsoever. Anybody who has any doubts about it just has to look above.

 

Several pages of Ghost, Xil, and I pointing out the numerous problems with how the elves were depicted would lead me to disagree. And since I already stated previously that I agreed with Ghost to opt out of those discussions because of how pointless it is, maybe the transparent baiting you're doing can be applied to someone else who is interested in discussing the topic - perhaps Xil, Ghost, or someone else wants to waste their time with you repeating arguments they've made already?