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[Birdy]

Odd rag-tag team of rebels ... drastic overhauls to the status quo ... massive social change ... the quizzy is essentially a demi-god by the end and people were already asking whether there was going to be a canticle added just for her.

 

But yes, for Lavellans there is also the love of a god.  Though whether ours will reach down and offer us a seat in heaven is another question.  Of course Andraste's story ended with betrayal and death.  Let us not forget who was seated in Judas' position in that promo pic.  Will Solas be our Maferath and not our Maker?  Or is he Shartan, doomed to be forgotten and overlooked. 

 

Of course there are also a lot of parallels to Flemeth's original story and Andraste.

Flemeth and Andraste? How so?  Other then the betrayal thing. . .I'm not seeing it.

 

[SamanthaJ]

My history teacher in high school said that a benevolent dictatorship was the most effective kind of government.

 

I agree with jello that Solas doesn't see himself as a benevolent dictator type, though. Maybe he sees The Inquisitor (if he likes them) that way, though.

 

Inquisitor for Dictator 9:42 

[Cheerios789]

The Andraste and Maker story is not really the same as the Solas and Lavellan story. The former is based on Christian beliefs and the latter seems like it's based more on Greek Mythology. Greek gods are a lot more flawed and the mortals who become their lovers tend to not fare well.

 

 

Yeah, I don't think it is the same, but if you subtract the Solas factor than there are a lot of similarities to any quizzy and Andraste.  No matter the choices you make, you are shaking up the balance of power just like she did. 

 

Let's pretend the Maker doesn't exist and Andraste made it up.  Well she had an excellent reason for doing so and honestly one that Solas would agree with.  People were worshiping the Tevinter old dragons as gods and that was not working, because in the end the gods were acting like men.  But if you place an unreachable and untouchable deity as your only god, then it is easier to swallow and there is less of a chance for corruption.  However, people are always people and the Chantry found a way to corrupt itself.  Andraste would be ashamed.

[Sable Rhapsody]

He's heartened by Lavellan's "keep trying!", so I hope he does. On the other hand, I'm terrified he will.

 

100% this.  I can just imagine my Lavellan seeing what he's wrought and being absolutely horrified.  Of course, that all depends on the nature of Solas's plan.

 

Whatever his plan is, I get the sneaking suspicion that it's not going to be good for normal people.  Normal people like what Sera talks about, regardless of race or location, who just want to live their lives without some world-shaking event wrecking their crops or killing their children.  

[Cheerios789]

Flemeth and Andraste? How so?  Other then the betrayal thing. . .I'm not seeing it.

 

She was held captive by her husband and placed in a tower (paraphrasing).  In her misery a spirit (now we know as Mythal) came to her and gave her the power to not just help herself, but lead her people to victory.  I can't remember the name of the battle.  Origins was such a long time ago, but Morrigan will tell you the story.

[BubbleDncr]

My history teacher in high school said that a benevolent dictatorship was the most effective kind of government.

 

I agree with jello that Solas doesn't see himself as a benevolent dictator type, though. Maybe he sees The Inquisitor (if he likes them) that way, though.

 

Inquisitor for Dictator 9:42 

 

I could see that being true. But I also don't think Solas is the dictator type. He's the guy who always thinks things can be better, but...

 

sorry I just started thinking about him and got all swoony. Forgot what I was gonna say. 

 

Oh yea, he's the college student who thinks the establishment is wrong, and we need to change it. But doesn't actually have a good idea on how to make things better. Or at least he was, before he fell asleep. Now he's the more mature version of that guy, realizes his mistakes, wants to do better, but still doesn't think ahead. Hence giving Cory his orby. 

[Birdy]

She was held captive by her husband and placed in a tower (paraphrasing).  In her misery a spirit (now we know as Mythal) came to her and gave her the power to not just help herself, but lead her people to victory.  I can't remember the name of the battle.  Origins was such a long time ago, but Morrigan will tell you the story.

I don't remember that story.  I remember her saying the army she "raised" and the battle was false.  Was made up to make the dictator look good.  Spirit thing, maybe, army raising I know isn't true.

[jellobell]

 

There are quite a lot of parallels to Andraste and Quizzy.  Love of a God, leading the world to peace.

I bet the first thing Varric does when he finds out the whole story is turn it into a best-selling novel.

 

Yeah, when I say he has a plan I mean that he's got a plan on how to get to his end goal. I agree that he doesn't have one for what comes after that. I love the use of chess and poker er Wicked Grace to describe him because it exposes his flaws (though I'm not sure that's intentional). The use of games to describe his intelligence plays back into the fact that at his heart, he's an academic. He's theorizing about how the world should be or how he would prefer it to be, instead of sitting down in the dirt and figuring out how to make it that way. He's a dreamer both figuratively and literally. He's good at getting from point A to point B, but the problem with a game is that it's all theoretical and at some point it ends. People are more complicated than that.

I agree with you to an extent. But I don't think Solas is blind to complexities. His stories are evidence enough of that. He challenges people not because he wants them to conform to his vision of the world but because he wants to complicate theirs. Sometimes he does this politely (Cass). Other times, not so politely (Vivienne). He's Mr. Socratic Method. He's also open to having his own mind changed if someone asks him questions in return.

 

But he's also an idealist, which is why he clashes so heatedly with Vivienne (who believes that one must be prepared to engage with the system). There are things he won't compromise on, like a person's right to their own choices (his banter with Bull where Bull tries to pull the "it's more complicated than that" argument but Solas says it isn't).

 

Really, it's no wonder he loves the Fade. It's a realm of pure choice, pure possibility. It's a place of ideals. I think Solas realizes that the world is extremely complicated, but he wishes that it wasn't.

[Cheerios789]

I don't remember that story.  I remember her saying the army she "raised" and the battle was false.  Was made up to make the dictator look good.  Spirit thing, maybe, army raising I know isn't true.

 

I could be wrong and just misremembering.  Like I said it has been a long time since Origins and that talk with Morrigan and the codexes.  I just recall drawing that comparison, but then again Bioware loves the woman rebelling against her betrayer husband trope. 

 

Not that I'm complaining.

[Brass_Buckles]

Yeah, I don't think it is the same, but if you subtract the Solas factor than there are a lot of similarities to any quizzy and Andraste.  No matter the choices you make, you are shaking up the balance of power just like she did. 

 

Let's pretend the Maker doesn't exist and Andraste made it up.  Well she had an excellent reason for doing so and honestly one that Solas would agree with.  People were worshiping the Tevinter old dragons as gods and that was not working, because in the end the gods were acting like men.  But if you place an unreachable and untouchable deity as your only god, then it is easier to swallow and there is less of a chance for corruption.  However, people are always people and the Chantry found a way to corrupt itself.  Andraste would be ashamed.

 

The Old Gods were definitely real.  Were they really gods?  Maybe, but they can be corrupted.  So too can the elven gods, and we also have seen evidence that they exist--but are they really gods?  Solas doesn't seem to think so, and yet he also doesn't put them on a level with elven nobility.  So, something more than powerful elves, something less than gods.   I think that they are more than spirits, but their body-hopping can also be duplicated by certain spirits.  Ageless, but not infallible.  They can still be killed, but it may be that they will find another host, like certain elven gods.

 

It would have been clever of Andraste to push the idea that she was somehow holy.  HOWEVER, I have gotten the impression that she did not set out to prove that she was holy.  She was just a person who went out into the world, fought wars, and got stuff done.  Evidence suggests she may have been an arcane warrior, but, having been a slave in Tevinter, she'd seen the worst of how magic was used to rule over people.  She may actually have meant, in her "magic is meant to serve man" statement, only that it's preferable magic be used to improve lives, rather than use blood magic and fear to command people.

 

If Shartan were actually Fen'Harel, it would explain... a lot.  Though, given Solas's distaste for humans upon waking, I'm thinking it wasn't him--he'd had limited to no contact with humans prior to entering his sleep (uthenera, which is normally permanent--but evidently it can be left?).

[Birdy]

I could be wrong and just misremembering.  Like I said it has been a long time since Origins and that talk with Morrigan and the codexes.  I just recall drawing that comparison, but then again Bioware loves the woman rebelling against her betrayer husband trope. 

 

Not that I'm complaining.

Hehe.

[BubbleDncr]

I've been watching the song that Miracle of Sound did for DA:I, and at 2:47ish, seeing the Solas hand grab (even with a male inquisitor) set to the epic music just has me swooning. Especially with the lyrics at that point. It's like, what my Lavellan wants to believe...

 

Spoiler

[jellobell]

Oh yea, he's the college student who thinks the establishment is wrong, and we need to change it. But doesn't actually have a good idea on how to make things better. Or at least he was, before he fell asleep. Now he's the more mature version of that guy, realizes his mistakes, wants to do better, but still doesn't think ahead. Hence giving Cory his orby. 

Heh. I think I described Solas to a friend as "your formerly radical marxist sociology professor who still talks about problematic social structures but is no longer arrogant enough to think that he can just tear them down."

[Eivuwan]

Honestly, Solas seems like an Anarchist or at least a Libertarian. He's going to maximize freedom and take care of injustices in an eye for an eye fashion since he doesn't believe in organizations dealing judgements.

[Birdy]

I wonder if there was ever a problem of possessions before the two worlds were separated.   Could be why Solas is adamant that mages should be completely free. He lived in a time that it wasn't an issue.  Otherwise I can't see why he wouldn't agree to someone watching

[Cheerios789]

The Old Gods were definitely real.  Were they really gods?  Maybe, but they can be corrupted.  So too can the elven gods, and we also have seen evidence that they exist--but are they really gods?  Solas doesn't seem to think so, and yet he also doesn't put them on a level with elven nobility.  So, something more than powerful elves, something less than gods.   I think that they are more than spirits, but their body-hopping can also be duplicated by certain spirits.  Ageless, but not infallible.  They can still be killed, but it may be that they will find another host, like certain elven gods.

 

It would have been clever of Andraste to push the idea that she was somehow holy.  HOWEVER, I have gotten the impression that she did not set out to prove that she was holy.  She was just a person who went out into the world, fought wars, and got stuff done.  Evidence suggests she may have been an arcane warrior, but, having been a slave in Tevinter, she'd seen the worst of how magic was used to rule over people.  She may actually have meant, in her "magic is meant to serve man" statement, only that it's preferable magic be used to improve lives, rather than use blood magic and fear to command people.

 

If Shartan were actually Fen'Harel, it would explain... a lot.  Though, given Solas's distaste for humans upon waking, I'm thinking it wasn't him--he'd had limited to no contact with humans prior to entering his sleep (uthenera, which is normally permanent--but evidently it can be left?).

 

Yeah I don't know if Andraste actually thought of herself as holy or the bride of the maker.  That just reeks of myth and the kind of stuff they are already throwing around at our quizzy.  But I get what she was doing and I respect it.  If she was a mage then the holy power/divinity thing makes sense.  How else could the common man justify her use of magic?  It really seems that most of the holy stuff was jotted down after she was put to death. 

 

Now as to Shartan ... well I really doubt it was Solas, however I would read the hell out of that fanfiction. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Honestly, Solas seems like an Anarchist or at least a Libertarian. He's going to maximize freedom and take care of injustices in an eye for an eye fashion since he doesn't believe in organizations dealing judgements.

 

Well, with his obsession with the Fade, might he find a solution in finding people to willingly bind themselves to spirits?  Imagine if your police force were all bound to spirits of justice or integrity. If all judges must be bound to a spirit of wisdom.

 

Would that make them incorruptible?  Of course not, but it would be more difficult.

[Birdy]

Ha. But Spirits of Wisdom get polluted into spirits of Pride.  It matches doesn't it? If Solas was a spirit, he used to be one of wisdom but transformed into Pride.

[Renmiri1]

 

Now we can read and export the text of the dialog

[Brass_Buckles]

Yeah I don't know if Andraste actually thought of herself as holy or the bride of the maker.  That just reeks of myth and the kind of stuff they are already throwing around at our quizzy.  But I get what she was doing and I respect it.  If she was a mage then the holy power/divinity thing makes sense.  How else could the common man justify her use of magic?  It really seems that most of the holy stuff was jotted down after she was put to death. 

 

Now as to Shartan ... well I really doubt it was Solas, however I would read the hell out of that fanfiction. 

 

I believe I remember reading lore somewhere - World of Thedas?  Codex?  Not sure - where the Cult of the Maker was already in existence during Andraste's time.  It may be that she truly believed the Maker had sent her to change things.  But, whether some otherworldly entity contacted her or not, the details likely got blown out of proportion.

[Birdy]

 

Now we can read and export the text of the dialog

[Eivuwan]

Well, with his obsession with the Fade, might he find a solution in finding people to willingly bind themselves to spirits?  Imagine if your police force were all bound to spirits of justice or integrity. If all judges must be bound to a spirit of wisdom.

 

Would that make them incorruptible?  Of course not, but it would be more difficult.

 

Problem with that is that spirits are so easily corrupted by human desires. In a sense spirits are way more fragile than humans in terms of sticking to their nature. They are always wavering between two extremes. Solas likes spirits a lot, but I see them as weak willed even though they may be more pure. Just look at Anders and Justice.

[TheComfyCat]

Well, someone--Mother Giselle I think--tells the Inquisitor that Corypheus could very well be lying.  I mean after all who do you wanna trust, Cory or the Chantry?

 

Hmmm... evil ancient magister, or religious organization that nearly wiped out Lavellan's people... You're both filthy scheming liars!

 

My perspective as a player is that Corypheus... wasn't lying.  The Golden City had already been despoiled; that's why he was sent to investigate.  But Corypheus saw it was empty and decided, instead of just checking it out and going home, to try to become the god-king of everything.  Whether the throne actually has the capacity to grant that, we don't know.  I'm guessing it doesn't, actually.

 

It could also certainly be that the Black City was never, ever golden in the first place, and that it is a real place sealed away in the Fade where no one can reach it because it's too dangerous to exist in the real world.  But in that case, what is sealed up in there?

 

I do believe Solas would know, assuming Lavellan could get past his being Fen'Harel (you know how Dalish feel about Fen'Harel, so even with the additional information the reaction is likely to be... not good) for long enough to ask.

 

I agree, I don't think Corypheus is lying about the city already being black (why did Dumat want him to go there, anyway?), and I think you're right that the "seat of the Maker" does not actually grant godhood. There's still a lot of mystery surrounding the Gold/Black City, and I think it's probably tied up with the Taint/ Blights, Old and Elven gods, and Dwarven history (so lyrium is probably involved, too). I wonder if Solas knows more about it, or if was still a mystery even in his time.

[Birdy]

Wait. Alastair meets his kid!?  I need to change the keep!!

[SamanthaJ]

Isn't Solas quite firmly against any kind of spirit binding?