153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Elessara]

*snaps fingers* There you go. That's the description I was looking for.

 

Yeah, I don't know what it is about our culture, but when someone is shown or described as evil, it's like people suddenly think, "Well, that's all they are and all they can ever be, so we shouldn't hold them responsible for their actions--we'll hold everyone around them responsible for not stopping them."

 

It's like Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. He gets super mad and blames Gordon and Batman for Rachel's death because neither got to her in time, even though the Joker was the one who kidnapped her, tied her up, and blew her up. The Joker even convinces him, "I'm just a dog chasing a car, but they let me off my leash," and he buys it. Gordon and Batman even call him out on it later, basically saying, "Why are you mad at us? The Joker's the one who killed her!" and he said something like, "The Joker's just a dog, but you let him off his leash," holding them entirely responsible for the Joker's decisions. It's like, "he's evil, therefore he's not a thinking being who should be held accountable for his choices, therefore I'll blame his decisions and actions on others."

 

In fact, for my G.E. critical thinking class in community college, I remember we read a short story about an adulterous wife who was having an affair with the man across the river from her house. Every day while her husband was at work, she'd pay the ferryman to take her across, have sex, then then pay him to ferry her home for when her husband arrived. While there was a bridge up-stream, she never took it because she'd have to walk through a wood where a murderer was said to live. However, one day she stayed a little late and forgot the extra coin to pay the ferryman. She begged him to take her across with an IOU, but he refused. She banged on her lover's door hoping to borrow a coin, but he was enjoying a post-sex nap and ignored her. Desperate to get home before her husband found out, she finally resolved to walk through the murderer's forest to get to the bridge.

 

Afterwards, we were asked, "Who's directly responsible for the woman's murder?"

 

We had a ten-minute discussion of it, with some saying, "The ferryman because he wouldn't take her across," or "the lover because he wouldn't answer the door," or "the cheating **** for having the affair in the first place / choosing to cross the bridge knowing the risks" or even "the husband for making the woman so scared of what he'd do to her if he found out that she thought risking her life in the murderer's forest was better than him finding out."

 

At the end, my professor said: "The murderer. The murderer is directly responsible for the woman's murder."

 

And we all just sat there kind of stunned. Since the short story never showed him and only described him as "the murderer," we didn't really think of him as a character with agency, moral choices, etc. We kind of thought, "Oh, it's a murderer. Murderers kill people. It's what they do" and didn't think anything more about it. So we spent so much time exploring the morality, agency, and choices of other established characters, that we forgot that the murderer is a person who has agency and makes choices like anyone else, and should be held accountable for it.

 

And just like my classmates (and myself), everyone seems so stuck in the mindset that "Corypheus is a villain. That's all he is," that they fail to remember that in-universe he had agency and made the moral choices he did, and that he should be held responsible for his crimes rather than just those around him.

 

I got into an argument with a friend of mine.  He said the orb enabled Corypheus to do everything he did during the game.  I told him that was crap and Cory was going to do what he did regardless, he'd have just found a different way to do it.  

[midnight tea]

*snaps fingers* There you go. That's the description I was looking for.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, I don't know what it is about our culture, but when someone is shown or described as evil, it's like people suddenly think, "Well, that's all they are and all they can ever be, so we shouldn't hold them responsible for their actions--we'll hold everyone around them responsible for not stopping them."

 

It's like Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. He gets super mad and blames Gordon and Batman for Rachel's death because neither got to her in time, even though the Joker was the one who kidnapped her, tied her up, and blew her up. The Joker even convinces him, "I'm just a dog chasing a car, but they let me off my leash," and he buys it. Gordon and Batman even call him out on it later, basically saying, "Why are you mad at us? The Joker's the one who killed her!" and he said something like, "The Joker's just a dog, but you let him off his leash," holding them entirely responsible for the Joker's decisions. It's like, "he's evil, therefore he's not a thinking being who should be held accountable for his choices, therefore I'll blame his decisions and actions on others."

 

In fact, for my G.E. critical thinking class in community college, I remember we read a short story about an adulterous wife who was having an affair with the man across the river from her house. Every day while her husband was at work, she'd pay the ferryman to take her across, have sex, then then pay him to ferry her home for when her husband arrived. While there was a bridge up-stream, she never took it because she'd have to walk through a wood where a murderer was said to live. However, one day she stayed a little late and forgot the extra coin to pay the ferryman. She begged him to take her across with an IOU, but he refused. She banged on her lover's door hoping to borrow a coin, but he was enjoying a post-sex nap and ignored her. Desperate to get home before her husband found out, she finally resolved to walk through the murderer's forest to get to the bridge.

 

Afterwards, we were asked, "Who's directly responsible for the woman's murder?"

 

We had a ten-minute discussion of it, with some saying, "The ferryman because he wouldn't take her across," or "the lover because he wouldn't answer the door," or "the cheating **** for having the affair in the first place / choosing to cross the bridge knowing the risks" or even "the husband for making the woman so scared of what he'd do to her if he found out that she thought risking her life in the murderer's forest was better than him finding out."

 

At the end, my professor said: "The murderer. The murderer is directly responsible for the woman's murder."

 

And we all just sat there kind of stunned. Since the short story never showed him and only described him as "the murderer," we didn't really think of him as a character with agency, moral choices, etc. We kind of thought, "Oh, it's a murderer. Murderers kill people. It's what they do" and didn't think anything more about it. So we spent so much time exploring the morality, agency, and choices of other established characters, that we forgot that the murderer is a person who has agency and makes choices like anyone else, and should be held accountable for it.

 

And just like my classmates (and myself), everyone seems so stuck in the mindset that "Corypheus is a villain. That's all he is," that they fail to remember that in-universe he had agency and made the moral choices he did, and that he should be held responsible for his crimes rather than just those around him.

 

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I can't really blame people for doing a good deed of trying to think about the complexity of issues, but I sometimes get a feeling that there's a tendency for us to get such concepts (like shared or indirect blame) only to take them to another extreme.

 

... Funny thing is that I have a feeling that Solas shares this tendency - and sure, nobody in their right mind would say that he's blameless, but I have a feeling that he takes too much of that blame on himself. Heck, if he and Inky don't like each other he explicitly takes responsibility for Corypheus being more of a threat than he would be without his orb, which probably people who don't like him (and more frequently play characters that don't like Solas) take as admission to standing behind everything Cory's done. Because sure, if a person, especially one who is eager to take the blame, says that they're guilty, we don't have to contemplate if it's indeed the case :/

 

Strangely enough I can't see people blaming Cassandra for being unable to prevent Divine's death (after a fight with Varric she says she should have been smarter and she doesn't deserve to be there) or blame Varric and Hawke for releasing Corypheus (a deed they feel very guilty about, Varric especially). I suppose them not trying to destroy the world helps, but they see people taking more responsibility for bad things than they realistically should and somehow they don't connect the dots...?

 

However I also think there's another tendency a lot of people share when it comes to Solas - a tendency to blame the victim.

 

I mean... Solas is not a victim per se (victim of circumstances on some level perhaps?), but what I mean is that he's afflicted with the same mechanism: that because things turned out wrong for them or something bad happens to them, it means that the victim is to blame. I've seen it happen countless times with either rape victims or even young children with horrible illness - people try to explain the bad that happens to them with some sort of fault of theirs.

 

I think this stems from the fact that there's some sort of mental blockade we have that wants to separate people to whom bad things happen or whose actions can have bad results - because if bad things can happen to good people, what are the chances that bad things don't happen to us???

 

In case of Solas... from the available evidence we can assume that he acted mostly in good faith, yet many of his decisions had tragic consequences. Well, if they had tragic consequences then he must have done something bad, didn't he? No good or necessary decisions can have bad consequences... right?

[Ghost Gal]

I got into an argument with a friend of mine.  He said the orb enabled Corypheus to do everything he did during the game.  I told him that was crap and Cory was going to do what he did regardless, he'd have just found a different way to do it.  

 

Wow... blaming an inanimate object for a person's own rotten morality, plans, choices, and actions that he would have found another way to complete even if the orb hadn't fallen into his lap. 

 

Yeah, that's a new low. (No offense to your friend.)

[Elessara]

Wow... blaming an inanimate object for a person's own rotten morality, plans, choices, and actions that he would have found another way to complete even if the orb hadn't fallen into his lap. 

 

Yeah, that's a new low. (No offense to your friend.)

 

Oh, I'm not offended, I agree lol.  Normally I enjoy discussing game lore with that particular friend but not in this instance.

[midnight tea]

Aaaaanyway... something funny happened to me lately. I got back to pretty heavy raiding and dungeoning in ESO, which oftentimes requires the use of TeamSpeak. I'm proficient enough in English, so I don't sit quiet in TS... and in last few days I've probably experienced what Solas and any ancient elf experienced whenever they speak elven or use their manner of speaking, since I got a lot of compliments for my voice and accent alone, and even a couple of requests to just speak something in my language.

 

person on TS (mostly a guy): "Could you speak something in Polish?"

me: *babbles something in Polish*

person on TS: "Oooooh..."

me: O_O;

 

I mean... I've had this happen to me before, but not at that frequency and long ago for me to push it from my memory and consider some of the reactions at spoken elvhen, with it's (artificial, but still) "foreign appeal", as somewhat exaggerated. But apparently It's A Thing That Happens 

[Ghost Gal]

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I can't really blame people for doing a good deed of trying to think about the complexity of issues, but I sometimes get a feeling that there's a tendency for us to get such concepts (like shared or indirect blame) and run with it to another extreme.

 

... Funny thing is that I have a feeling that Solas shares this tendency - and sure, nobody in their right mind would say that he's blameless, but I have a feeling that he takes too much of that blame on himself. Heck, if he and Inky don't like each other he explicitly takes responsibility for Corypheus being more of a threat than he would be without his orb, which probably people who don't like him (and more frequently play characters that don't like Solas) take as admission to standing behind everything Cory's done. Because sure, if a person, especially one who is eager to take the blame, says that they're guilty, we don't have to conemplate if it's indeed the case :/

 

Strangely enough I can't see people blaming Cassandra for being unable to prevent Divine's death (after a fight with Varric she says she should have been smarter and she doesn't deserve to be there) or blame Varric and Hawke for releasing Corypheus (a deed they feel very guilty about, Varric especially). I suppose them not trying to destroy the world helps, but they see people taking more responsibility for bad things than they realistically should and somehow they don't connect the dots...?

 

However I also think there's another tendency a lot of people share when it comes to Solas - a tendency to blame the victim.

 

I mean... Solas is not a victim per se (victim of circumstances on some level perhaps?), but what I mean is that he's afflicted with the same mechanism: that because things turned out wrong for them or something bad happens to them, it means that the victim is to blame. I've seen it happen countless times with either rape victims or even young children with horrible illness - people try to explain the bad that happens to them with some sort of fault of theirs.

 

I think this stems from the fact that there's some sort of mental blockade we have that wants to separate people to whom bad things happen or whose actions can have bad results - because if bad things can happen to good people, what are the chances that bad things don't happen to us???

 

In case of Solas... from the available evidence we can assume that he acted mostly in good faith, yet many of his decisions had tragic consequences. Well, if they had tragic consequences then he must have done something bad, didn't he? No good or necessary decisions can have bad consequences... right?

 

Yeah... There are so many terrible things in this life, I feel like a lot of people want to give themselves reason not to care by finding a way to blame something terrible that happened to someone on them so they can stop caring. "Oh, X terrible thing happened to you/them/it? You/they/it must have done something to deserve it," or "HA! If you/they/it had not said/done/been X, then Y wouldn't have happened," and they can skip along in their little comfortable bubble of indifferent ignorance.

 

I'm personally glad that Solas feels guilty/responsible for Corypheus with the Orb, because it shows that he does have a conscience; he does care. He does hold himself responsible; he does feel bad. If he didn't, he'd blithely let himself off the hook with "Well, I didn't use the orb to do X, therefore I'm not responsible!" and frolic along his elfy way. Although, I do find it interesting how the same people who claim that he's a sociopathic remorseless monster use his confession for being at fault as a way to 100% blame him for everything that happened, when the fact that he feels and admits guilt points to him having a conscience at all.

 

In a way, the question of just how responsible Solas is for Corypheus' actions might fall into the realm of Moral Luck. That is, people assign a moral judgment on the outcome of a person's actions as if they were equal to the moral intent, even if the outcome was out of the control of the perpetrator. A good example would be the Tweedles' recitation of "The Walrus and the Carpenter" to Alice in Through the Looking Glass. In that version (slightly different from the Disney version), both the Carpenter and Walrus want to eat the oysters, but the Walrus tricks the Carpenter into leaving so he winds up eating more. (Unlike the movie, they both eat some, although the Walrus still gets more.) Seeking a moral, Alice initially thinks the Carpenter is the better person because he ate fewer oysters. The Tweedles then point out that he had wanted to eat as many oysters as the Walrus, but only by circumstances he didn't predict did he get tricked into eating less. If he'd had his way, he would have eaten as many as the Walrus, so he's not the better guy. The "luck" of the moral outcome (eating fewer oysters) did not match the moral intent (eating many oysters), so we can't judge him as a morally superior guy.

 

The same holds true for accidents having unintended outcomes. For example, two kids play with matches in the back yard. One accidentally sets fire to a small clump of grass that happens to be surrounded by dirt and so the fire sizzles out, while the other accidentally sets fire to grass not surrounded by dirt, so the fire spreads and then catches the house. The parents then more heavily scold the kid whose fire found its way to the house because his actions happened to have the heavier outcome, even though both kids did the same dangerous thing by playing with the same matches in the same place, and by "luck" (circumstances beyond their intention or control), one's flames happened to spread more destructively while the other's didn't.

 

I personally think a lot of the blame assigned to Solas for Corypheus' actions falls in the latter category. While Solas allowed Corypheus to find the Orb, he had done so fully intending for him to die in the explosion so he could pick it up. As Solas himself says, he had not known that Corypheus had "effective immortality," and if he'd known he would most likely have never given it to him. The outcome was disconnected from and out of the control of the intention, so we cannot hold him morally responsible for all the terrible things Corypheus does with the Orb after the explosion as if Solas himself had morally intended for it to happen.

 

We can hold him partially responsible since he gave Corypheus the Orb in the first place. We can call him out on his ignorance and recklessness for letting the ancient magister darkspawn take an item of such power without knowing the scope of his abilities. We can even hold him directly, morally responsible for the explosion at the Conclave since he and his spies knew Corypheus intended to unlock it at the Conclave, knew the explosion would kill everyone there, and he and his spies were willing to just sit back and let it happen. But everything after the Conclave explosion? Corypheus body-hopping, taking the Orb, leaving, and then using it to do all the terrible things he does in-game? Not Solas' intention, not tied to his moral character or event the direct moral intention of his actions.

 

I hope that makes sense, and I hope you don't think I'm just full of it.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Aaaaanyway... something funny happened to me lately. I got back to pretty heavy raiding and dungeoning in ESO, which oftentimes requires the use of TeamSpeak. I'm proficient enough in English, so I don't sit quiet in TS... and in last few days I've probably experienced what Solas and any ancient elf experienced whenever they speak elven or use their manner of speaking, since I got a lot of compliments for my voice and accent alone, and even a couple of requests to just speak something in my language.

 

person on TS (mostly a guy): "Could you speak something in Polish?"

me: *babbles something in Polish*

person on TS: "Oooooh..."

me: O_O;

 

I mean... I've had this happen to me before, but not at that frequency and long ago for me to push it from my memory and consider some of the reactions at spoken elvhen, with it's (artificial, but still) "foreign appeal", as somewhat exaggerated. But apparently It's A Thing That Happens 

 

The only Polish words I know is Kurwa and Ja Pierdole

[CapricornSun]

Art post.

 

Anchor. Another beautiful Solavellan artwork by nipuni.

Spoiler

Source: http://nipuni.tumblr...available-in-my

 

 

Solas and Lavellan in a Mass Effect AU.

Spoiler

Source: http://destinyaposta...ayersangel-plus

 

 

Lavellan hugging Solas (colored version).

Spoiler

Source: https://wreck-sea.tu...-today-sketched

 

 

Sketch version:

 

 

Lavellan mixing up a potion/poison recipe while Solas watches.

Spoiler

Source: http://direchinchill...s-why-she-mixes

 

 

Solas x m!Lavellan being all tender. (NSFW-ish? Because they're shirtless?)

Spoiler

Source: http://mistysinkat.t...an-requested-by

 

 

Close up:

 

 

Lavellan carrying Solas. 

Spoiler

Source: http://str-gazer.tum...ided-to-quickly

 

 

Sketch of Solas and Lavellan.

Spoiler

Source: http://ladyintheblue...ep-but-never-to

 

 

A mixture of angsty and fluffy Solavellan sketches. 

Spoiler

Source: http://solavellangar...s-nothing-but-a

 

 

Lavellan and Solas reading.

Spoiler

Source: http://solavellangar...th-and-solas-3c

 

 

Solas always disapproves.

Spoiler

Source: https://kimboltart.t...es-the-minute-i

 

 

The Dread Wolf.

Spoiler

Source: http://bigbuffpugpuf...-that-i-finally

 

 

Solas sketch.

Spoiler

Source: http://deerdrop.tumb...2178455567/jerk

 

 

Sad Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://vladimirka.tu...up-with-the-red

 

 

Sad Solas, colored version. (When I saw the sketch I thought he was in the rain. Turns out it was blood.)

Spoiler

Source: http://vladimirka.tu...-need-your-help

 

 

Manbun!Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://moonlitalien....s-with-a-manbun

 

 

Solas is very defensive about his style. (Solas and Dorian)

Spoiler

Source: http://fishslappping...nsive-about-his

 

 

Angry about elves. (Sera and Solas.)

Spoiler

Source: http://rockboci.tumb...st/142186695013

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Airbender Solas (http://riiriia.devia...olas-512885138 )

 

 

Narrated by female Lavellan:-

"Fade... Void... Titans... Dragons. Long ago, the four things lived together in harmony. Then everything changed when the Evanuris attacked. Only the Dread Wolf, master of all four things, could stop them. But when the Elvhen needed him most, he created the Veil and vanished.

A few thousand years passed and the Inquisition and I discovered the actual Dread Wolf, an Egghead named Solas. And although his magic skills are great, he still has an Orb to recover and a Mythal to absorb before he's ready to wreck shite. But I believe Solas can destroy the Veil, my arm, my Vallaslin and my heart."

[dawnstone]

Art post.

 

Anchor. Another beautiful Solavellan artwork by nipuni.

Spoiler

Source: http://nipuni.tumblr...available-in-my

 

 

This reminds me I need to order some of Nipuni's prints, her paintings are so freaking gorgeous.

[CapricornSun]

This reminds me I need to order some of Nipuni's prints, her paintings are so freaking gorgeous.

 

Me too! I'm tempted to order ALL of her stuff, tbh! xD

 

I just love her works so much... 

[Garnet]

Me too! I'm tempted to order ALL of her stuff, tbh! xD

 

I just love her works so much... 

Same here. I'm always so impressed by her work! Yours too, Sunny! I love your drawings. Especially glasses/Prof Solas..

[CapricornSun]

Same here. I'm always so impressed by her work! Yours too, Sunny! I love your drawings. Especially glasses/Prof Solas..

 

 

Ah haha! Thank you!  

[Garnet]

 

Ah haha! Thank you!

No problem! I'm just always happy to see new art from you and so many other artists.

[CapricornSun]

Art post again.

 

Gorgeous art of Lavellan and Solas smoking all chill by salesart.   (GIF)

Spoiler

Source: http://salesart.tumb...hill-for-my-art

 

 

Sunlight/Moonlight. Gorgeous Solavellan artwork.

Spoiler

Source: http://fenrirsruthle...red-by-a-band-i

 

 

Close up:

 

 

Solas and Lavellan.

Spoiler

Source: http://anatari.tumbl...uisition-to-see

 

 

Concept!Solas WIP.

Spoiler

Source: http://crimsontentac...-finishing-this

 

 

Concept!Solas again.

Spoiler

Source: http://ghost-suit.tu...-wrong-again-my

 

 

When Solas accidentally drinks mocha, forgetting there's caffeine in it. By ChuChu.

Spoiler

Source: http://lothlenan.tum...i-would-care-to

 

 

Male Lavellan's drunk Solas impression.

Spoiler

Source: http://schrodanger.t...olas-impression

 

 

Adaar told Dorian she could get Solas to say a pun, probably.

Spoiler

Source: http://cupcakelogic....-solas-to-say-a

 

 

What if Solas was like Steve Irwin?

Spoiler

Source: http://rainsong777.t...-was-like-steve

 

 

Iorveth from Witcher 2 and Solas kissing. 

Spoiler

Source: http://sebesun.tumbl.../im-in-elf-hell

 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

What if Solas was like Steve Irwin?

Spoiler

Source: http://rainsong777.t...-was-like-steve

 

 

 

Oh wow. I can just hear it in my head. XD

[Colonelkillabee]

Pretty much, yeah.  I kinda think Cory was more Random_BBEG_04 for a lot of people.

 

In my opinion, one of the most horrific things Corypheus did was create the Red Templars.  I know some of the templars took the red lyrium by choice but iirc a lot of the templars were also forced into taking it.  Felix said there were worse things than dying and to me what the red lyrium does to people is one of them.  And I think we can place the blame of the widespread red lyrium infection on Cory's doorstep.

I was kinda hoping for a blight again, a real blight. This would have been just as good, had he been allowed to succeed some and not thwarted at every turn.

 

Anyway, I agree. Watching people slowly grow red crystals through their skin and change... that's really fucked up.

 

edit: Also, hi everyone

[CapricornSun]

Art post. (Hi Colonel! )

 

Sweet Talker. Tipsy elves flirting in elven by nipuni. (I'll never stop being impressed with how fast she churns out great artwork!)

Spoiler

Source: http://nipuni.tumblr...irting-in-elven

 

 

'Cool motive. Still mass murder.' Trespasser Lavellan (elf-blooded btw) and Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://needapotion.t...2264133221/insp

 

 

Solas and Lavellan in silly mage hats. (Hello horrible DAO mage hats! xD)

Spoiler

Source: http://destinyaposta...the-oc-art-meme

 

 

Sketches of Solas and Lavellan.

Spoiler

Source: http://emeraldknight...merican-writers

 

 

A lovely tutorial on how to draw Solas, Part 1.

Spoiler

Source: http://amaryllislave...-let-me-know-if

 

 

Part 2 of the tutorial on how to draw Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://amaryllislave...r-you-my-dear-3

 

 

Solas.

Spoiler

Source: http://tyrphi.tumblr...-break-my-heart

 

[Siha]

Oh

 

How do things as old as that get dug out again... like those New Orleans tales about bodies surfacing again after a flood. *shiver*

[dawnstone]

How do things as old as that get dug out again... like those New Orleans tales about bodies surfacing again after a flood. *shiver*

I know that when I started coming here, I read through the entire thread, and it was somewhere around 4500 posts at the time. It's all there, waiting like a half-buried shipwreck for new fans to discover.

[Siha]

I know that when I started coming here, I read through the entire thread, and it was somewhere around 4500 posts at the time. It's all there, waiting like a half-buried shipwreck for new fans to discover.

 

But who ever does that, read the whole thread? I mean, you do, obviously but....

Good ol' times.

[GoldenGail3]

Male Lavellan's drunk Solas impression.

Spoiler

Source: http://schrodanger.t...olas-impression
 

My Lavellan would do it as a way to spite Solas. Lol. Artemis can be a huge troll if he wants too..

[dawnstone]

But who ever does that, read the whole thread? I mean, you do, obviously but....

Good ol' times.

It's the only thread that's really interesting to me here, so yeah. It took a couple of weeks, but I wanted to read the lore stuff and people's predictions, so I had to go digging. And then there's the fanart, and some of the people who used to hang out are freaking hilarious. I still get notifs for things 1000 posts back.

[Elessara]

I was kinda hoping for a blight again, a real blight. This would have been just as good, had he been allowed to succeed some and not thwarted at every turn.

 

Anyway, I agree. Watching people slowly grow red crystals through their skin and change... that's really fucked up.

 

edit: Also, hi everyone

 

Hey Colonel!  Nice to see you still around.  

[Neria Rose]

Random comment: I completely missed the Solas thread exceeding the Cullen thread in length. Just had to get that out.

 

Also, thanks again to the people who post art! That's mostly why I stop by now, since I don't have time to read. Speaking of which, off to class!