153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Amburu]

^I got the same understanding of the "great gift" comment

 

Meh, if there were so many demons, that could mean a great number of poor fade spirits had to get to the physical world corrupted in this dark future, right ?

I'm not sure that would happen in Solas's plan... Sure to him Thedas people aren't his kind anymore but he just respects the spirits so much

But alright I totally could hear him saying it's necessary for the greater Good, because his resolve is going that far

Well idk some codice (or Code) did say the spirits were hiding deep in the fade, scared of the Veil breaking

Eeeeverything is messed up

[IHaveReturned1999]

I call Solas a heartless intellectual because the whole tearing down the Veil thing, and he didn't even listen to his heart and say "Is this the best thing to do? What would happen if I fail and all of this destruction to save my people would be for nothing? How would the people speak about me in the years to come?" He just thinks with is intellect without listening to his heart that tells him no.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I'd be on board with the "future Redcliffe may not be what Solas' plans will result in" bandwagon if he didn't talk about the expected result of his tearing down the veil being the world "burning in raw chaos". That described future Radcliffe pretty accurately.

 

Plus, in future Redcliffe, there are Solas' comments about how you'd think "such understanding would prevent me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong." Given hindsight, you might be tempted to think the "terrible mistakes" he's talking about is giving Corypheus his orb, but he says that comment in response to the Inquisitor being surprised that he understood Dorian's explanation about how the amulet had worked. He's talking about his understanding of magic when he says "such understanding". He's not referencing a mistake in judgment in giving Cory the orb, he's referencing a terrible mistake that his understanding of magic should have prevented. And the only mistake of that type that I can think of that he'd be referencing would be how he thought the veil drop would played out vs how he had actually seen it do so over the last year.

[rowrow]

I call Solas a heartless intellectual because the whole tearing down the Veil thing, and he didn't even listen to his heart and say "Is this the best thing to do? What would happen if I fail and all of this destruction to save my people would be for nothing? How would the people speak about me in the years to come?" He just thinks with is intellect without listening to his heart that tells him no.

 

He's not heartless. Nobody like that would get as angry on behalf of others as he frequently does, nor would they go to as great lengths to correct their perceived mistakes, as he does.

 

I'd say that Solas' head and heart just don't work together very well.

[Amburu]

Heh I thought he was speaking about when he set up the Veil

I need to play that part again and pay extra attention, it was too long ago

 

Yep he's not heartless, he's dying from guilt

[midnight tea]

I'm certain Solas learned a lot from the Inquisitor's account of dark Redcliffe, but we don't really know what his feelings on it were, do we? Even if he was having a major internal freakout, it's not like he was going to let it show. The demeanour he cultivates with the Inquisition is pragmatic and coolly speculative  for the most part. Any angsting he does is on his own time, at least until he gets to know the Inquisitor better (especially if romanced) and it starts to leak through. So the 'great gift' comment I always took to mean that it was greatly useful in terms of what could be learned from it. I could just see his mind going a million miles at that point, and not just for the Inquisition's sake but for his own plans as well.

 

Solas might have bottled all his angst throughout millenia, but if something freaks him out, he makes it pretty clear. After all, no matter ho he feels about Inquisitor, he pretty much freaks out after finding out about Wardens plans. So I'm pretty sure that if the whole Redcliffe future was supposed to have such a large impact on him, it'd have.

 

 

Also, I'm not confident that Solas' plans for the Veil don't actually look worse than Cory's dark future. We don't have much to go on, but we know Solas probably doesn't intend to set himself up as a new God, so he won't bother with Cory's posturing and cultivating of his own myth, raising demon armies etc. Less mess and flourishing, more pure destruction from the ground up? Whatever outcome he's after, he'd probably want it done as cleanly and efficiently as possible, without protracted suffering. Not that it'll go that way, of course.

 

But that's the thing - we don't have much to go on... so why conflating "Cory future" with "Solas future"?

 

We have way too little to go on with now - what we do know however is that Solas is NOT Corypheus, who's a Blighted horror willing to flood the world with red lyrium and demons, shatter the Veil (in a way Solas most certainly does not intend to repeat. After all why would he risk his life and plans to seal the Breach if a matter of merging the world was as 'simple' as poking a hole through it and watch it spread) and basically toy with powers he has no idea about.

[rowrow]

Solas might have bottled all his angst throughout millenia, but if something freaks him out, he makes it pretty clear. After all, no matter ho he feels about Inquisitor, he pretty much freaks out after finding out about Wardens plans. So I'm pretty sure that if the whole Redcliffe future was supposed to have such a large impact on him, it'd have.

 

It's true he lets his stronger emotions slip sometimes, but not usually on purpose, I think. He had everyone except Cole fooled right up till the end, remember - and you don't manage that without being damn good at keeping a lid on your reactions. His response to the Warden plans was a definite crack in the facade, and not the only one, but then again pretty much anyone would have freaked out about the same, and said plans were still imminent. The Redcliffe business was already over by the time it was discussed, so he was probably like, 'let's move on and I can brood about this at length in private.'

[midnight tea]

I'd be on board with the "future Redcliffe may not be what Solas' plans will result in" bandwagon if he didn't talk about the expected result of his tearing down the veil being the world "burning in raw chaos". That described future Radcliffe pretty accurately.

 

Considering that Solas is hardly ever literalistic, I'd hardly take his comment so literally. "Burning in raw chaos" might mean many things ("Let the light in. Let it burn." <- voice from tiniest cave) and I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "the world being thoroughly infested with the Blight" (which also happens to be the one thing Solas seems to be genuinely terrified of).

 

 

Plus, in future Redcliffe, there are Solas' comments about how you'd think "such understanding would prevent me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong." Given hindsight, you might be tempted to think the "terrible mistakes" he's talking about is giving Corypheus his orb, but he says that comment in response to the Inquisitor being surprised that he understood Dorian's explanation about how the amulet had worked. 

 

Which makes sense: Inquisitor admits ignorance to knowing how time magic/magic works - Solas simply admits that his extensive knowledge of magic didn't prevent him from making terrible mistakes; and those mistakes could be anything - from giving Cory an orb to actually putting the Veil in the first place (add to that the fact that Solas is one of those people who puts blame on himself for nearly everything, so it might as well be a comment in a tone of that of Cass or Varric when they feel overly-responsible for either Cory/Red Lyrium or death of Justinia).

 

You'd also think that if the plan ended in any way similar to Cory's future, he'd try and tell Inquisitor to stop his past self. But there's nothing - no cryptic warning or anything. And the only reaction we have from Solas after Inky's return is that knowing what will happen is a great boon. He makes no changes o his plans

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Considering that Solas is hardly ever literalistic, I'd hardly take his comment so literally. "Burning in raw chaos" might mean many things ("Let the light in. Let it burn." <- voice from tiniest cave) and I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "the world being thoroughly infested with the Blight" (which also happens to be the one thing Solas seems to be genuinely terrified of).

No, I doubt he means "world infested with blight", but that was hardly the only problem with future Redcliffe. The demons being everywhere and the landscape merged with the green-tinted nightmare that is the physical fade had nothing to do with the red lyrium that was present.

 

As for the rest, he does say "mistakes" plural. It could be all of the above as being mistakes. Still think he means bringing down the veil is one of them, though, Tea.

 

And as for why Solas doesn't warn past Solas against his plans, maybe he can't think of any warning that would work? Present Solas basically refuses to hear anything about what his fate was in the future when you try to bring it up in conversation, if I remember correctly. 

[Ellawynn]

I'd be on board with the "future Redcliffe may not be what Solas' plans will result in" bandwagon if he didn't talk about the expected result of his tearing down the veil being the world "burning in raw chaos". That described future Radcliffe pretty accurately.

 

Plus, in future Redcliffe, there are Solas' comments about how you'd think "such understanding would prevent me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong." Given hindsight, you might be tempted to think the "terrible mistakes" he's talking about is giving Corypheus his orb, but he says that comment in response to the Inquisitor being surprised that he understood Dorian's explanation about how the amulet had worked. He's talking about his understanding of magic when he says "such understanding". He's not referencing a mistake in judgment in giving Cory the orb, he's referencing a terrible mistake that his understanding of magic should have prevented. And the only mistake of that type that I can think of that he'd be referencing would be how he thought the veil drop would played out vs how he had actually seen it do so over the last year.

 

See, my issue with it is - why didn't Solas tell us anything in the dark future? "Hey Inquisitor, I know what we're doing right now is super important, but I should probably give you a heads up - I'm Fen'Harel in disguise, my past counterpart is trying to bring about a future a lot like this one, and since I can't directly communicate with him to tell him what an idiot he's being, could you maybe go back and kill him a little when you get there? Kthnxbai."

 

Like - the only thing I can see preventing him from telling the Inquisitor is that he wants to keep his identity secret. Which is not something I'd think he'd value over the end of the entire world. Besides that? What's he got to lose? Either the Inquisitor believes, stop his past self, and everything's saved. Or the Inquisitor believes, fails to stop his past self, in which case Solas at least tried. Or the Inquisitor doesn't believe him at all, in which case, again, at least he still tried. The worst case scenario is that he gets killed - which appears to be part of his plans anyway, so...

 

Now obviously, from a writer's perspective, we can't have Solas give everything away right there, because we don't even start to get a hint about his plans until the end of the game. But "Well this illogical thing has to happen for the rest of the plot to work" is an awful excuse, and it's on the writers to write the plot in such a way that everything makes sense. So if Solas was referring to this future, specifically, then it's a massive plot hole, because why would he keep quiet?

 

EDIT: To clarify my position, I'm in camp "The end result of the Redcliffe future is what Solas wants, but the long-drawn out process Cory's doing to get there, combined with Nightmare's demonic onslaught, the red lyirum Blight everywhere, and the false god crushing everyone beneath his heel, kinda puts Solas off this version of events. His process, while no less chaotic and destructive, would at least be quicker and wouldn't end with a Blighted global dictatorship - but given that the world was Veilless once and worked fine, I fail to see how it makes any sense that being Veilless again would somehow destroy it."

 

It's a pretty long camp name.

[IHaveReturned1999]

He's not heartless. Nobody like that would get as angry on behalf of others as he frequently does, nor would they go to as great lengths to correct their perceived mistakes, as he does.
 
I'd say that Solas' head and heart just don't work together very well.

That's the problem. He doesn't listen to his heart as well as his head. If he's not one then why didn't he even find another way to liberate the elves without destroying Thedas?

[rowrow]

That's the problem. He doesn't listen to his heart as well as his head. If he's not one then why didn't he even find another way to liberate the elves without destroying Thedas?

 

Well, I don't agree he's a 'heartless intellectual', but I sure think he's got the wrong idea at the moment.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's the problem. He doesn't listen to his heart as well as his head. If he's not one then why didn't he even find another way to liberate the elves without destroying Thedas?

Because he doesn't see the modern elves as even people, like how he doesn't see dwarves, humans, or qunari as even people. 

[Ellawynn]

That's the problem. He doesn't listen to his heart as well as his head. If he's not one then why didn't he even find another way to liberate the elves without destroying Thedas?

 

I mean, better ways generally don't suddenly materialize just because you want them to appear.

 

He probably could've spent a bit more time looking, though. And it would largely depend on what he wants. Does he just want elves to be cool again? Then yeah, Solas should probably get over the magic and immortality thing and just try to improve the lives of modern people. Does he want to save something more concrete, like spirits or some ancient elves trapped beyond the Veil or something? Then giving up and going home isn't a good solution. Tearing down the world's also not fantastic, though.

[rowrow]

Because he doesn't see the modern elves as even people, like how he doesn't see dwarves, humans, or qunari as even people. 

 

That's not true by the end of Trespasser, with a friendly Inquisitor. He knows they're people.

 

He still doesn't think he has a choice.

[IHaveReturned1999]

That's not true by the end of Trespasser, with a friendly Inquisitor. He knows they're people.
 
He still doesn't think he has a choice.

There is always a choice. He could simply gather all elves to the eluvians and go to another place where they could start over and never come back, and that would be a simple solution better than chaotic event that would be an endless cycle of death and destruction.

[Amburu]

EDIT: To clarify my position, I'm in camp "The end result of the Redcliffe future is what Solas wants, but the long-drawn out process Cory's doing to get there, combined with Nightmare's demonic onslaught, the red lyirum Blight everywhere, and the false god crushing everyone beneath his heel, kinda puts Solas off this version of events. His process, while no less chaotic and destructive, would at least be quicker and wouldn't end with a Blighted global dictatorship - but given that the world was Veilless once and worked fine, I fail to see how it makes any sense that being Veilless again would somehow destroy it."

 

It's a pretty long camp name.

 

It wasn't veilless, the veil was all over the place but shattered, and that probably makes a huge difference, also

 

I mean, better ways generally don't suddenly materialize just because you want them to appear.

 

He probably could've spent a bit more time looking, though. And it would largely depend on what he wants. Does he just want elves to be cool again? Then yeah, Solas should probably get over the magic and immortality thing and just try to improve the lives of modern people. Does he want to save something more concrete, like spirits or some ancient elves trapped beyond the Veil or something? Then giving up and going home isn't a good solution. Tearing down the world's also not fantastic, though.

 

What he wants to bring back isn't only cool elvhen, it's the whole magic identity of thedas, the harmony between spirits and other living things, restoring the ancient places that have been slowly crumbling all this time, also dwarves getting back their connection to the fade. The issue with tearing the veil down sounded like the sudden magic overflow would damage a lot of stuff like a tsunami, and spirits would be really confused at first, also he's probably going to have to deal with the Evanuris and who knows what else maybe the source of the blight or other things we haven't yet heard about, but after a while, when everything has been taken care of and both people and spirits overcome the adaptation step, everything will probably go back to normal as it was, but a lot of casualties is to be expected

 

I still believe there is another solution but he isn't willing to waste anymore time because the damage he dealt is already too high to bear for him, something like this. Don't forget he's just awaken from his slumber to find all this mess. He wants to deal with it as fast as possible to prevent the damage from escalating even further. Also the veil remaining there is probably going to cause even more trouble in the long run so I believe it HAS to be taken away, but we will probably find another solution in da4 or 5

That's my take on the whole thing

I'm sorry if the english went painful

[Ellawynn]

There is always a choice. He could simply gather all elves to the eluvians and go to another place where they could start over and never come back, and that would be a simple solution better than chaotic event that would be an endless cycle of death and destruction.

 

Well I'm not sure where you're getting this "endless cycle of destruction" nonsense from, but that is a point. Why can't Solas just gather up a bunch of elves to come live in the Crossroads with him? Punch a hole through to the Fade and live there, if that's what elves need to regain immortality? Would that even be possible? He likely wouldn't have to worry about humans or anyone trying to invade, since the elves (And maybe Qunari) are the only ones capable of living there.

 

Like - no way he hasn't considered that idea, at least. So what's the issue? Hmm...

[Ellawynn]

It wasn't veilless, the veil was all over the place but shattered, and that probably makes a huge difference, also

 

 

What he wants to bring back isn't only cool elvhen, it's the whole magic identity of thedas, the harmony between spirits and other living things, restoring the ancient places that have been slowly crumbling all this time, also dwarves getting back their connection to the fade. The issue with tearing the veil down sounded like the sudden magic overflow would damage a lot of stuff like a tsunami, and spirits would be really confused at first, also he's probably going to have to deal with the Evanuris and who knows what else maybe the source of the blight or other things we haven't yet heard about, but after a while, when everything has been taken care of and both people and spirits overcome the adaptation step, everything will probably go back to normal as it was, but a lot of casualties is to be expected

 

I still believe there is another solution but he isn't willing to waste anymore time because the damage he dealt is already too high to bear for him, something like this. Don't forget he's just awaken from his slumber to find all this mess. He wants to deal with it as fast as possible to prevent the damage from escalating even further. Also the veil remaining there is probably going to cause even more trouble in the long run so I believe it HAS to be taken away, but we will probably find another solution in da4 or 5

That's my take on the whole thing

I'm sorry if the english went painful

I do think he cares about spirits - not so much about the dwarves and their connection, but definitely about spirits and elves.

 

The "cool elves" comment wasn't serious, really, I'm just entirely too irreverent. I'm not one of those people who somehow came to the conclusion that Solas is some sort of elven supremacist who wants to destroy all non-elves out of sheer hatred.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Well I'm not sure where you're getting this "endless cycle of destruction" nonsense from, but that is a point. Why can't Solas just gather up a bunch of elves to come live in the Crossroads with him? Punch a hole through to the Fade and live there, if that's what elves need to regain immortality? Would that even be possible? He likely wouldn't have to worry about humans or anyone trying to invade, since the elves (And maybe Qunari) are the only ones capable of living there.
 
Like - no way he hasn't considered that idea, at least. So what's the issue? Hmm...

Tearing down the Veil? Raw chaos? The Evanuris hellbent on revenge against him for sealing them to the Fade? Ring any bells???

[Inkvisiittori]

That's not true by the end of Trespasser, with a friendly Inquisitor. He knows they're people.

 

He still doesn't think he has a choice.

 

He thinks they are people... but still not his people.

 

Only way to save "his people" apparently is by allowing this world to end. The modern world and elves only exist because of his mistake - it never should've happen. Same how you, the Inquisitor, see the future world in IHW: "This is all pretend to you, some future you hope will never exist." (only in smaller scale of course since it's only been 1 year where as Solas was asleep for... how many hundreds of years exactly?)

 

I wonder... time magic is now part of the setting so could this be something Solas intends? Could he try to travel back to the moment when he created the Veil? If I remember correctly it was the Breach that allowed time magic and you could only travel in it's timeline... could the same thing happen with the Veil? Is that Solas' plan to undo this "future" by going back to the past and stop himself from making the mistake that destroyed the Elvhenan and Ancient Elves? I don't how "as this world burns in raw chaos" fits that though... (unless he was just being poetic) 

[Amburu]

I do think he cares about spirits - not so much about the dwarves and their connection, but definitely about spirits and elves.

 

The "cool elves" comment wasn't serious, really, I'm just entirely too irreverent. I'm not one of those people who somehow came to the conclusion that Solas is some sort of elven supremacist who wants to destroy all non-elves out of sheer hatred.

 

Well. I understand how you might come to this conclusion, but really, everything ever going wrong with the thedas we know was because of what he did as an elvhen hero to try to protect the weak ones. He barely woke up "yesterday" to discover how everything really turned out. Everybody as "not being people" mean they feel empty, as merely shadows of what they used to be and literally every single thing is super messed up now. That's a nightmare to him. And we don't know it yet but the world is probablyon its way to DOOM either way but that's still speculation.

 

I can't see any of this as simply elvhen supremacist. But I can understand how other people might, because these morals are a touchy subject.

[Amburu]

I wonder... time magic is now part of the setting so could this be something Solas intends? Could he try to travel back to the moment when he created the Veil? If I remember correctly it was the Breach that allowed time magic and you could only travel in it's timeline... could the same thing happen with the Veil? Is that Solas' plan to undo this "future" by going back to the past and stop himself from making the mistake that destroyed the Elvhenan and Ancient Elves? I don't how "as this world burns in raw chaos" fits that though... (unless he was just being poetic) 

 

I thought about time magic and I don't know, it seems to require a huge lot of blood magic if I can recall ? I know Solas could go that far if he decided that was an efficient way but I don't know if *we* can think of this as a proper alternative

[Ellawynn]

Tearing down the Veil? Raw chaos? The Evanuris hellbent on revenge against him for sealing them to the Fade? Ring any bells???

 

...Yes? And? Given that bringing Solas to the Fade doesn't suddenly summon the Evanuris, I'm assuming just being there won't bring them to him. They're probably more locked up than that, and he seems to want to release them anyway.

 

What I mean is - if Solas' goal were truly to simply give elves back their magic, he could do that already. He doesn't need a Veilless world precisely - he just needs a place where the Fade is closer. And what's closer than the Fade itself, or a neighboring pocket realm? He could theoretically rebuild Elvhenan and regain elven magic by settling in the inter-dimensional woodwork, no Apocalypse required. He could probably help the spirits too that way - they'd be drawn to the new society, hopefully redirecting some attention away from the physical world.

 

But he doesn't. Why do you think that is?

 

...To spell it out, it's because I don't think his goal is as simple as bringing back the past. Although I am curious as to what would actually happen if someone tried to settle the Crossroads/Vir Dirthara.

[Amburu]

...Yes? And? Given that bringing Solas to the Fade doesn't suddenly summon the Evanuris, I'm assuming just being there won't bring them to him. They're probably more locked up than that, and he seems to want to release them anyway.

 

What I mean is - if Solas' goal were truly to simply give elves back their magic, he could do that already. He doesn't need a Veilless world precisely - he just needs a place where the Fade is closer. And what's closer than the Fade itself, or a neighboring pocket realm? He could theoretically rebuild Elvhenan and regain elven magic by settling in the inter-dimensional woodwork, no Apocalypse required. He could probably help the spirits too that way - they'd be drawn to the new society, hopefully redirecting some attention away from the physical world.

 

But he doesn't. Why do you think that is?

 

...To spell it out, it's because I don't think his goal is as simple as bringing back the past.

 

To me it would be exactly because he wants to restaure the whole thedas and not only a small part of it

And it might be necesarry anyway because the last 2 blights certainly wont be the worst things happening because of the veil, brace yourselves