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Are male Qunari brocialists?


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#1
Cat Fancy

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Yes.

In a recent thread about the Qunari, some people objected to the assertion that the Qunari are patriarchal. Happened a few other times before that, too. Sure, the vast majority of Qunari (and vashoth) we've seen have been men, but that's because they're the warriors, which are male. The Qunari are actually led by a three-person executive council consisting of one man, one woman, and one of either who have absolute authority over their particular branch of government/society. Men and women have different, complementary roles in Qunari society, but you can't call it patriarchal because women assume some of the highest positions of leadership. I'm not sure I agree. I would say that there's a very good chance the Qunari are a patriarchal society not dissimilar to the many patriarchal societies that exist and continue to exist pretty much... everywhere in the real world.

We haven't met many Qunari women in the games (just Tallis?). Much of the information we have comes from maybe a few codex entries (most of which I have never read), World of Thedas, and this thread. (much of the information in that thread shows up in World of Thedas) So far, the information has mostly been presented as how the Qunari see their society, or perhaps how they might justify themselves to outsiders. Not necessarily how it actually is.

Here's what WoT has to say about the Triumvirate:

Arigena: Head of the worker Qunari. She is responsible for nurturing Qunari and maintaining health in the community.

Women are head of hearth and home. What an alien societal configuration the Qunari have already.

Ariqun: Head of the Qunari priesthood. He or she is responsible for ensuring the Qun is taught and pushing the progress of science.

Fair enough. Both men and women are the Ben-Hassrath (which falls under the Ariqun's purview), who police and spy for the Qunari. Seems a necessity for there to be a degree of gender parity here, but I'll give them this anyway.

Arishok: Head of the Qunari military. He is responsible for the protection and safety of society, as well as its expansion. The military is also responsible for dealing with foreigners, making the Arishok the nominal head of state. Because of this, outsiders may mistake him for a king.

Ah, yes. "Mistake."

If there was an all-out war of the sexes in Par Vollen, who would win? The Arigena and her sisters would control the awesome power of a medieval command economy for approximately as long as it took for the Arishok and his army to immediately overtake them with their formidable military prowess and might. The Qunari are an aggressive, expansionist society and the men seem to do the aggressing and expanding.

The female misogynist Seer of Kont-aar weights in on page 84 of World of Thedas:

The Qunari view their whole society as a single creature: a living entity whose health and well-being is the responsibility of all. Each individual is only a tiny part of the whole, a drop of blood in its veins. Important not for itself, but for what it is to the whole creature. Because of this, the Qunari most outsiders meet belong to the army, which the Qun reguaards as if it were the physical body: arms, legs, eyes and ears, the things a creature needs in order to interact with the world. One cannot get to know a person solely by studying his hand or his foot, so one cannot truly 'meet' the Qunari until one has visited their cities. That is where their mind and soul dwell.

Sister, please. That is obfuscatory nonsense. "Ignore what your senses are telling you. Trust me, I'm deep and complex and there's more to me than meets the eye. I care about women, for sure, totally." Don't qunsplain to me about what I need to know about the Qunari! I know enough.

Anyway, even then, let's talk about this. Without your soul, you're a sociopath or tranquil or whatever; I don't know. Without your mind, you're comatose. Without your body? You're nothing. You don't exist. (the Qunari are godless, after all. do they believe in an afterlife?) Men win. Your body contains your mind and your soul. The reverse isn't otherwise true. (or is it.)(no!)

Here's David Gaider in the old thread, responding to someone:

Maybe I am making incorrect assunptions but that would give the Tamassrans an incredible amount of influence. They choose the pairings, handle the upbring and education, and determine the roles of the next generation.

They might not see it the same way, but yes-- the Tamassrans wield a huge amount of influence. It's also a female gender role (as all administrative tasks are) which might lead an outsider to conclude that female qunari rule their society.

Yes, an outsider might conclude this. This outsider might also conclude that the wizarding world in Harry Potter is a sortinghatriarchy and that the role of women as teachers and guardians of children in many societies means that they're the top dogs, as well. I would disagree with this outsider. Men still have more power than women/hats in many societies today where women are teachers and primary caregivers and hats are career aptitude hats.

Anyway, I definitely don't think there's enough evidence to say that the Qunari aren't patriarchal. They seem pretty patriarchal to me! The Qunari have a militaristic, expansionist empire. Men control the military and much of the secret police. Seems like they have one-up on the women. But I'm the worst and have awful opinions. I've always like Mass Effect 3's ending, for example.

Further questions:

 

Do you think female Qunari leaders are all "cool girls" who are undermining Qunari feminism? Alternately, do you think Anne Helen is kind of projecting an awful lot onto Jennifer Lawrence in that essay.

I've heard it said that the Qun is like Confucianism. I don't actually know anything about Islam, communism, feminism, or Confucianism. Anyway, are the Qunari totally a Thedosian analogue for Confucianists? In what ways. Elaborate.

Why did we only see male Saarebas last game? Do Saarebas only have same-gender Arvaarads? Are male Saarebas thought to be more, less, or equally capable/dangerous as women? Why didn't Bioware just develop one female model for all the Saarebas we would see? Have they failed feminism again.

Do u think a Marxist-Leninist-Koslunist vanguard party is necessary to lead the proletariat in revolution and establish communism.

Is the greatest weapon the Qunari have in the struggle against Tevinter the internal contradictions of capital accumulation.

Do you think the fex were matriarchal before being assimilated into the Qunari? Will we ever meet one? What do you think female fex look like?

World of Thedas calls the pre-Qunari Qunari kossith. Are we allowed to do this, at least when referring to them before the Qun, or is that still considered kind of annoying, confusing, and pretentious?

Both men and women can become the Ariqun. Do they become so at equal rates? Have there been more male or female Ariquns, and how long have reigns of each lasted? Do men and women have different responsibilities and roles when they assume this position?

Does the Arigena promote performance art, or just performance crafts?

Do you think we will ever meet a Tal-Vashoth woman who bristles at the collectivist nature of the Broviet Qunion and writes long AF novels espousing her highly individualistic philosophy? Will her newly chosen individual name be Aynraand.

Please feel free to ask and answer your own questions about the Qunari and patriarchy in this thread.


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#2
thats1evildude

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THERE ARE NO FEX!
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#3
Jedi Master of Orion

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You're looking at the Qunari wrong. They don't see it that way. If there was a war of the sexes they wouldn't be Qunari anymore. The Arishok goes as far as to say he would be nothing without his counterparts. The Rivaini Seer is perfectly understandable. The individual is not important, only the whole of society is. I'd go as far as to say women have the most vital roles in the Qun. The Tamassrans and the Ariqun control how the society itself runs. The Arishok is just in charge of protecting it and spreading it to others. The Qunari don't see it as there being a conflict between sexes, but if there were, the women would have the more influential roles.

 

THERE ARE NO FEX!

 

Yes there are.


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#4
leaguer of one

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He's your problem with you point. You're missing out on the fact of who teaches who in the qunari society It the Ben-Hassrath who are in charge of the education of the masses and organize the structure of qunari society. The Arishok, Ariqun, and Arigena are just the highest level of managers for qunari society. Who are soldiers, priests, and craftmans is based on who the Ben-Hassrath select. It's not an issue of gender but of efficiency. Since the Ben-Hassrath are made of woman as well it would mean woman do have a voice on who goes were and who does what. On the issue on the argument on cases that the woman can fight and want to fight, that woman is just made part of the Ben-Hassrath as an agent. It's both man and woman deciding the goings on with qunari society.



#5
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He's your problem with you point. You're missing out on the fact of who teaches who in the qunari society It the Ben-Hassrath who are in charge of the education of the masses and organize the structure of qunari society. The Arishok, Ariqun, and Arigena are just the highest level of managers for qunari society. Who are soldiers, priests, and craftmans is based on who the Ben-Hassrath select. It's not an issue of gender but of efficiency. Since the Ben-Hassrath are made of woman as well it would mean woman do have a voice on who goes were and who does what. On the issue on the argument on cases that the woman can fight and want to fight, that woman is just made part of the Ben-Hassrath as an agent. It's both man and woman deciding the goings on with qunari society.

 

I'm not sure what Ben Hassarath even do.

 

Of the ones I met (Tallis, Salit, and now Iron Bull possibly) they all seem like people who lack conviction in their own beliefs.

 

So just speaking from experience, the Ben Hassarath represent Doubt. Yet the Qun is supposed to represent Certainty.



#6
Jedi Master of Orion

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The purview of the Ben-Hassrath covers many different things: mainly Counter-terrorism, spying, enforcing the ideals of the Qun and rooting out deserters and heretics.


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#7
Cat Fancy

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They were referring to the (female) Tammassrans, I believe.



#8
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The purview of the Ben-Hassrath covers many different things: mainly Counter-terrorism, spying, enforcing the ideals of the Qun and rooting out deserters and heretics.

 

Why is it that the ones we meet are deserters and heretics then? :D

 

Not in the case of Tallis, of course. I view her more as a seeker. Sincere in her quest for truth, but lives with doubt.

 

I'd really like to meet a BH who can really walk the talk and tell me what their job actually is.



#9
leaguer of one

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I'm not sure what Ben Hassarath even do.

 

Of the ones I met (Tallis, Salit, and now Iron Bull possibly) they all seem like people who lack conviction in their own beliefs.

 

So just speaking from experience, the Ben Hassarath represent Doubt. Yet the Qun is supposed to represent Certainty.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Ben-Hassrath

 

Based on the codex they maintain and enforce the ideals and beliefs of the qun. That also means teaching which we see in one of the da comics..

 

250px-Ben-Hassrath_%28Those_Who_Speak%29

 

They are the reason why qunari society is the way it is



#10
leaguer of one

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The purview of the Ben-Hassrath covers many different things: mainly Counter-terrorism, spying, enforcing the ideals of the Qun and rooting out deserters and heretics.

And teaching and re-education.



#11
Jedi Master of Orion

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Why is it that the ones we meet are deserters and heretics then? :D

 

Not in the case of Tallis, of course. I view her more as a seeker. Sincere in her quest for truth, but lives with doubt.

 

I'd really like to meet a BH who can really walk the talk and tell me what their job actually is.

 

Well, it seems to take a toll on the people who have the job sometimes.



#12
Cat Fancy

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You're looking at the Qunari wrong. They don't see it that way.

I know they don't see it that way. But how many people (or societies) necessarily have accurate or complete views of themselves? Their society could still be patriarchal or misogynist, whether or not they claim it isn't (not that I imagine Thedosians of any religion or nation will be busting out either word). The writers' explanations of the Qunari in the thread and those in World of Thedas have (mostly) been written from the perspective of "good" Qunari who agree with the Qun. Not all Qunari see it that way, obviously. We've encountered plenty of Tal-Vashoth in the games and some doubting Qunari otherwise.

 

 

The Qunari don't see it as there being a conflict between sexes, but if there were, the women would have the more influential roles.

This reminds a bit of the argument some make that while men seem to control much of the world's power, men want women and some men really love their mothers, so who's in charge, really? I would still say men, for the most part. And that thread never said that Qunari believe women had more influential roles in the society, just that an outsider might come to that conclusion. As I said, from the information we have, I'm not sure an outsider would. And yes, women do seem to have more political and economic power in this society than some other real ones, especially medieval ones. But we haven't met many. I hope to meet more in Inquisition.



#13
StrangeStrategy

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you upset that the Qunari seem to value men more?

 

Its a fact that men and women are equal, mentally. And that men are superior physically. Men have more muscle and less required bodyfat% and that's just how it goes. Its not sexist, its nature.

 

Then again, I didn't read the entire post and skimmed a bit (sorry lol) so if I'm wrong, disregard this off-topic post


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#14
Cat Fancy

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I'm not upset about the way the biology or culture of a fantasy race/religion works, or the physiological differences between the average male and female human in reality. I disagree with people who say that Qunari aren't patriarchal.



#15
Hanako Ikezawa

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And yes, women do seem to have more political and economic power in this society than some other real ones, especially medieval ones. But we haven't met many. I hope to meet more in Inquisition.

You probably won't get your wish until we play a game that takes part in Par Vollen. 



#16
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Well, it seems to take a toll on the people who have the job sometimes.

 

As it should. They should feel bad. ;)

 

Seriously though, that's interesting. I look forward to seeing how it's taken a toll on Iron Bull.



#17
leaguer of one

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I know they don't see it that way. But how many people (or societies) necessarily have accurate or complete views of themselves? Their society could still be patriarchal or misogynist, whether or not they claim it isn't (not that I imagine Thedosians of any religion or nation will be busting out either word). The writers' explanations of the Qunari in the thread and those in World of Thedas have (mostly) been written from the perspective of "good" Qunari who agree with the Qun. Not all Qunari see it that way, obviously. We've encountered plenty of Tal-Vashoth in the games and some doubting Qunari otherwise.

 

 

This reminds a bit of the argument some make that while men seem to control much of the world's power, men want women and some men really love their mothers, so who's in charge, really? I would still say men, for the most part. And that thread never said that Qunari believe women had more influential roles in the society, just that an outsider might come to that conclusion. As I said, from the information we have, I'm not sure an outsider would. And yes, women do seem to have more political and economic power in this society than some other real ones, especially medieval ones. But we haven't met many. I hope to meet more in Inquisition.

 

1. How can it be ether or if the class that decides what is what is mixed sex?

 

2. That not the case in this. Your example is one that states the ones with influence does not mean they are in charge. With this case they are giving to orders and selecting who is in charge. The Ben-Hassrath can pick who the Arishok,Ariqun, and Arigena and in kind make them step down. If that class is mix sex then we can say one sex dominates over the other.



#18
mikeymoonshine

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I'll respond to some of this. 

 

Women are head of hearth and home. What an alien societal configuration the Qunari have already.

 

That's not what "worker Qunari" means, here is a quote from the Wiki. 

 

She represents the embodiment of the industrial, agricultural and mercantile aspect of the Qunari government, having oversight over what the Qunari believe to be the 'mind' of their society. The Arigena is always a female.[1]

The merchants and craftsmen are charged with the construction of all necessities for the Qunari such as weapons, building materials or food, and with its fair distribution amongst the believers of the Qun.

 

How do you get head of the hearth and home from that? The Qunari have no hearth and home. 

 

Fair enough. Both men and women are the Ben-Hassrath (which falls under the Ariqun's purview), who police and spy for the Qunari. Seems a necessity for there to be a degree of gender parity here, but I'll give them this anyway.

 

 

You are forgetting the Tamassrans. The Tamassrans are an exclusively female role and they basically rule Qunari society. 

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran This is obviously a more powerful position than Ben-Hassrath and it's exclusively female. Allthough the Qunari do not see it this way their society appears to mostly be female lead. 

 

Ah, yes. "Mistake."

If there was an all-out war of the sexes in Par Vollen, who would win? The Arigena and her sisters would control the awesome power of a medieval command economy for approximately as long as it took for the Arishok and his army to immediately overtake them with their formidable military prowess and might. The Qunari are an aggressive, expansionist society and the men seem to do the aggressing and expanding.
 

 

There wouldn't be one because the Qun would not permit that. The Qunari cannot survive without it's government and if they were to overthrow their mostly female lead government and replace them with males then they would no longer be Qunari. 

 

 

Sister, please. That is obfuscatory nonsense. "Ignore what your senses are telling you. Trust me, I'm deep and complex and there's more to me than meets the eye. I care about women, for sure, totally." Don't qunsplain to me about what I need to know about the Qunari! I know enough.

Anyway, even then, let's talk about this. Without your soul, you're a sociopath or tranquil or whatever; I don't know. Without your mind, you're comatose. Without your body? You're nothing. You don't exist. (the Qunari are godless, after all. do they believe in an afterlife?) Men win. Your body contains your mind and your soul. The reverse isn't otherwise true. (or is it.)(no!)

 

I don't agree with the Qunair worldview either but whether it's right or not is not relevent. The Qunari believe in souls and they kinda believe their sole is their role under the Qun (i think), for example Sten's soul was his sword. This whole body, mind, soul of the Qun thing is all a metaphor anyway, you seem to be trying to twist it into something it really isn't without much justification. 

 

:

Yes, an outsider might conclude this. This outsider might also conclude that the wizarding world in Harry Potter is a sortinghatriarchy and that the role of women as teachers and guardians of children in many societies means that they're the top dogs, as well. I would disagree with this outsider. Men still have more power than women/hats in many societies today where women are teachers and primary caregivers and hats are career aptitude hats.

 

So you did remember the Tamassrans, when it suited you to. You make a good point, an outsider might see a society they know little about a certain way and that way could be wrong. if only you could apply that logic to yourself.  :rolleyes:

Also your comparison is bad. Some women are teachers in harry potter, not all of them. if that was the case would you still assume men held all the power? Maybe you would idk. You also can't compare real life societies to this one and then act like that proves your point. 

 

Anyway, I definitely don't think there's enough evidence to say that the Qunari aren't patriarchal. 

 

 

And so that means they just automatically are?

 

That's not how logic works. You don't look for evidence for a negative claim you look for evidence for a positive one. Are the Qunari patriarchal? Find some evidence and get back to us. 

 

I may continue at some point. 

(edit) If my sarcasm offends you I apologise. That's just how I am and I found some of your arguments a bit annoying, that's just how I react. 


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#19
leaguer of one

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I'm not upset about the way the biology or culture of a fantasy race/religion works, or the physiological differences between the average male and female human in reality. I disagree with people who say that Qunari aren't patriarchal.

But they can't be patriarchal because the part of the culture the structures it is mix sex. It can be ether or if both men and women and making and enforcing the rules.



#20
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I'm not sure what Ben Hassarath even do.

 

Of the ones I met (Tallis, Salit, and now Iron Bull possibly) they all seem like people who lack conviction in their own beliefs.

 

So just speaking from experience, the Ben Hassarath represent Doubt. Yet the Qun is supposed to represent Certainty.

 

That's because it's probably the most difficult role to fulfill after Saarebas. That's why the Tamassrans only assign it to the most capable and elite of the Qunari. I believe their doubt speaks more about the role than the individual. 



#21
Jedi Master of Orion

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I know they don't see it that way. But how many people (or societies) necessarily have accurate or complete views of themselves? Their society could still be patriarchal or misogynist, whether or not they claim it isn't (not that I imagine Thedosians of any religion or nation will be busting out either word). The writers' explanations of the Qunari in the thread and those in World of Thedas have (mostly) been written from the perspective of "good" Qunari who agree with the Qun. Not all Qunari see it that way, obviously. We've encountered plenty of Tal-Vashoth in the games and some doubting Qunari otherwise.

 

 

World of Thedas' main text is objective. So if it says that their society is a certain way, that's how it is.

 

This reminds a bit of the argument some make that while men seem to control much of the world's power, men want women and some men really love their mothers, so who's in charge, really? I would still say men, for the most part. And that thread never said that Qunari believe women had more influential roles in the society, just that an outsider might come to that conclusion. As I said, from the information we have, I'm not sure an outsider would. And yes, women do seem to have more political and economic power in this society than some other real ones, especially medieval ones. But we haven't met many. I hope to meet more in Inquisition.

 

 

Well Qunari society is not the same as the real world. Whether men are in charge of the real world doesn't matter because Qunari are different. You're looking at Qunari society through the lenses of what is familiar in our society. Qunari seem to place much more value on meritocracy than what is socially expected of you.

 

Also in the OP you were taking the "Mind, Body and Soul" of the Qun too literally.

 

1)Qunari believe that you can't be a person without all 3 things.

2) They were metaphors for the roles divided up into society. The Qun isn't literally a single giant organism.

3) In Dragon Age there have been plenty of things that existed without a body. Everything that exists in the Fade is a good example, such the villagers from Blackmarsh that were trapped there by the Barroness.



#22
Spaghetti_Ninja

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Ugh, do we really have to drag the Qunari into this stupid discussion as well?

 

They are extreme pragmatists. There is no room for social mobility, for men or women, for mages or non-mages, for people born to the Qunari race and for people who converted. They aren't patriarchal, because the men have no more ability to change their roles than the women do. Everybody has their role assigned to him or her at birth and THAT IS IT. If a man is born to shovel dung, he will shovel dung. There is really nothing else left to discuss.

 

I'm sure there are more interesting and dynamic cultures to dissect than these rigid horned automatons.


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#23
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I don't know if this applies here, but I find the whole presence of Qunari a bit ironic in a choice based game. Our own protagonists revolve around choice and self-determination. Hell, even one of the Wardens is named for this (Tabris, the City Elf. Named after the Angel Tabris. The Angel of Free Will and Alternatives). Yet there's this whole faction telling you to walk down predetermined lines, and to be happy with a defined destiny. Be it male, female, soldier, farmer, whatever. If the Qunari had their way, we wouldn't even play Dragon Age. lol. We'd play another action adventure game instead. With no character creator.

 

Anyways... :rolleyes:



#24
Clockwork_Wings

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I thought the ariqun was a female and the arigena was either/or?

#25
leaguer of one

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World of Thedas' main text is objective. So if it says that their society is a certain way, that's how it is.

 

 

 

Well Qunari society is not the same as the real world. Whether men are in charge of the real world doesn't matter because Qunari are different.

 

Also in the OP you were taking the "Mind, Body and Soul" of the Qun too literally.

 

1)Qunari believe that you can't be a person without all 3 things.

2) They were metaphors for the roles divided up into society. The Qun isn't literally a single giant organism.

3) In Dragon Age there have been plenty of things that existed without a body. Everything that exists in the Fade is a good example, such the villagers from Blackmarsh that were trapped there by the Barroness.

 

But the qunari do see their society as a single giant organism or at lest try to impose that mindset. A person is no different from a cell in a persons body with the belief of the qunari.

And this does happen in real life. It's called social symbiosis