205 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah but they aren't literally one organism. They don't have a hive mind. It was an analogy.

[Clockwork_Wings]

But the qunari do see their society as a single giant organism or at lest try to impose that mindset. A person is no different from a cell in a persons body with the belief of the qunari.
And this does happen in real life. It's called social symbiosis

The qunari are also terrified of magic. Avoiding things without bodies, ie, spirits, would be par the course.

[Clockwork_Wings]

Yeah but they aren't literally one organism. They don't have a hive mind. It was an analogy.

I'm quite sure that's an ultimate goal.

[TurretSyndrome]

I'm not upset about the way the biology or culture of a fantasy race/religion works, or the physiological differences between the average male and female human in reality. I disagree with people who say that Qunari aren't patriarchal.

 

I could counter you by saying that Qunari are misandrists or the society itself is matriarchal because their religion insinuates that men in society are merely useful for muscle and little more while women are the brains behind the operation(s). 

 

The fact is, it is neither. They established it in such a way and so far they have no conflicts with the system. 

[mikeymoonshine]

 

I know they don't see it that way. But how many people (or societies) necessarily have accurate or complete views of themselves? Their society could still be patriarchal or misogynist, whether or not they claim it isn't (not that I imagine Thedosians of any religion or nation will be busting out either word). The writers' explanations of the Qunari in the thread and those in World of Thedas have (mostly) been written from the perspective of "good" Qunari who agree with the Qun. Not all Qunari see it that way, obviously. We've encountered plenty of Tal-Vashoth in the games and some doubting Qunari otherwise.

 

 

I don't think the Qunari would claim anything if you accused them of being patriarchal and misogynistic. I think they would indoctrinate you. 

 

If they are "bad Qunari" and they don't agree with the Qun they will be re-educated or killed. If they abandon the Qun then they are not Qunari. 

 

Tal-Vashoth are not Qunari. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm quite sure that's an ultimate goal.

What? That doesn't make any sense. They are not the Borg Collective. If they were a single hive mind then they couldn't have or behave half the way they do.

 

If I could use another analogy, they're more like the Tau. Not the Tyranids.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah but they aren't literally one organism. They don't have a hive mind. It was an analogy.

It a state of mind. You don't have to have a hive mind to act like one organism. It can happen with out intent or on purpose.

[mikeymoonshine]

I don't really care for the gender argument against the Qunari myself.

 

They are antagonistic to individuality in general. Not gender. That's enough for me.

 

Well they have gender roles so that can't be true. 

[leaguer of one]

What? That doesn't make any sense. They are not the Borg Collective. If they were a single hive mind then they couldn't have or behave half the way they do.

 

If I could use another analogy, they're more like the Tau. Not the Tyranids.

Of course that makes sense. The very reason why they want to invade other places is to convert them. To them it's ether the que or nothing and anything outside of it is automatically wrong.

[leaguer of one]

Well they have gender roles so that can't be true. 

And the class that pick who role is who are made up of men and women.

[mikeymoonshine]

And the class that pick who role is who are made up of men and women.

 

Oh I know, I was just saying they must have a comcept of gender because they have gender roles. that doesn't mean it's the same as ours though. 

 

 

I'm not saying there aren't gender disparities. I'm just saying their threat (to me, personally) is more insidious than that. I view them like... the Career Counselors from Hell. Or much like how cults behave with their members. They want providence over every aspect of your identity. Gender is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Ah ok, that is correct. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It a state of mind. You don't have to have a hive mind to act like one organism. It can happen with out intent or on purpose.

 

Yes I know that. But they aren't actually a single organism. Regardless of how they act, the Qunari are not literally a single being. They are literally many different individuals who have mostly adopted a collectivist philosophy in their society. I don't know why you seem to be having trouble understanding what I'm saying. They Qunari want to spread their authoritarian collectivist ideas to the rest of the world. They do not want to merge together like amoebas.

[Beliar86]

I don't think the Qunari would even see it as power in the traditional sense.  Leaders would just be people most adept at organizing and motivating people, a role to be fulfilled.  I don't think they would considered patriarchal or matriarchal no matter who had "power".    They're like a combination of communism and  theocracy coming together into a single massive ashhole shittlng all over everything.

[mikeymoonshine]

Yes I know that. But they aren't actually a single organism. Regardless of how they act, the Qunari are not literally a single being. They are literally many different individuals who have mostly adopted a collectivist philosophy in their society. I don't know why you seem to be having trouble understanding what I'm saying. They Qunari want to spread their authoritarian collectivist ideas to the rest of the world. They do not want to merge together like amoebas.

 

Their goal is to become one massive harvester! 

[Who Knows]

Patriarchal or matriarchal, it's institutional sexism and should be opposed on that basis.

[leaguer of one]

An ashkaari walked among the fields once, observing the laborers at work. Flax bloomed all around him, the color of still water. The air rippled like a curtain. As he stopped to examine a blossom, a bee stung him on the hand. The ashkaari turned to a laborer for aid, and noticed for the first time the heavy gloves and coat she wore. As she tended to him, the ashkaari asked why she dressed so in such stifling heat. "To avoid your fate." she replied. 

 

"But there are many thousands of bees here," the ashkaari said to her, "and only one stung me. Surely your caution is unwarranted?"

 

"The stinger is always as suprise," agreed the laborer. "But so is the be that simply passes one by."

Any one, mage or not can ,sting you.

[Lady Nuggins]

I gotta say that reading your post was most amusing.  I don't know if you are 100% trolling right now or just being snarky to demonstrate the absurdity of the discussion, but either way, A+.

 

Now, I definitely disagree with your "hearth and home" label for women's role in qunari society.  It seems they are, in fact, in control of the nation's economy, agriculture, resources, and technology.  In our world, those are all traditionally male domains.  They are also vitally important--probably even moreso than military strength.  After all, what nation could possibly put resources towards expansion if they did not have the food and funds for it?

 

If there were a war of the sexes and the military attacked the female-led economic forces, would they win?  That is kind of an unreasonable question, because it is like asking what would happen if the American military attacked Wall Street.  Obviously a bunch of bankers could not hold their own against armed soldiers, but such a thing would never happen.  If it did, the economy would be in shambles, and those who control the military would not want that.  They'd have nothing to gain from it.

 

Also, though we don't yet know the details of it, we know that qunari society is technologically advanced.  Soldiers alone don't win wars.  Who do you think is arming them?

 

As for not showing a female Saarebas.... I really don't have to tell you what a bad idea it would be to make the first ever female qunari leashed and collared, do I?  I mean... I think it's pretty clear why that would have been a very poor choice. 

 

I'm really interested to see some of these very questions answered in Inquisition.  I want to meet female qunari and listen to their perspective on this society.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd like to bring up the Drow.

They're a matriarchal society where men are warriors, wizards, and merchants while women are priests. In the books, only men seem able to accomplish anything while women are hypersexualized dominatrixes who constantly cat fight.

It is a matriarchy, but it's one written by people in a patriarchy and highlights some fairly demeaning ideas about women.

Mass Effect also had a species where the women were 'in charge' but you only dealt with men because women don't leave their homes (Salaraians) and where the sexes where equal but you only ever saw men until that one DLC (turians.)

This is what happens when you have gender equality or female supremacy expressed by artists from patriarchal societies.

I have no problem believing the qunari are intended to be gender equal, but I'm not surprised that they look like most patriarchies, and that their equality is present in the codex/background info but not seen in the game.

[BlueMagitek]

The Drow are also a chaotic evil race pretending to be lawful evil while worshipping a chaotic evil Spider Queen.

 

I don't think you can really compare that with the current situation.

[leaguer of one]

The Drow are also a chaotic evil race pretending to be lawful evil while worshipping a chaotic evil Spider Queen.

 

I don't think you can really compare that with the current situation.

More neutral evil if anything but the point stays the same.

[mikeymoonshine]

I'd like to bring up the Drow.

They're a matriarchal society where men are warriors, wizards, and merchants while women are priests. In the books, only men seem able to accomplish anything while women are hypersexualized dominatrixes who constantly cat fight.

It is a matriarchy, but it's one written by people in a patriarchy and highlights some fairly demeaning ideas about women.

Mass Effect also had a species where the women were 'in charge' but you only dealt with men because women don't leave their homes (Salaraians) and where the sexes where equal but you only ever saw men until that one DLC (turians.)

This is what happens when you have gender equality or female supremacy expressed by artists from patriarchal societies.

I have no problem believing the qunari are intended to be gender equal, but I'm not surprised that they look like most patriarchies, and that their equality is present in the codex/background info but not seen in the game.

 

Isn't it just a result of writers wanting to create more varied, unique and even more equal societies but being restricted by other aspects of development? The Turian's for example I believe someone from bioware said that it was a matter of resources. It's not a good excuse and the reason they chose to make males instead of females essentially boils down to patriarchy but that isn't the writer's fault. The intent was probably to have allot more females but males were picked over females because of patriarchy.

 

That doesn't mean the artist is failing to understand true equality because he/she is from a patriarchal society though. That just means bioware chose to do one thing over another because of patriarchal norms.

 

As for the Qunari, I guess it's about how they were always intended to be. Every other race in DA has pretty good female representation (except dwarves in DA2) it seems like the Qunari were set up to seem that way to an outsider. Picking them out as an example of failure to represent women seems a bit dishonest DA is not ME. At least the female Qunari was not sexualised in the demo and hopefully we will be seeing more females in game.