205 réponses à ce sujet

[GriffinFire]

I agree that the Qunari are sexist in that they define gender roles so strictly, but it seems to me that said sexism is distributed equally.

 

In an actual patriarchy, i.e. the real world, it is largely men who continue to be at the top of every field, including those with many women in the middle and lower tiers -- academia, medicine, etc., as well as every branch of government.

 

In the Qun, on the other hand, a field is dominated entirely by one gender or another, with the exception of the priesthood.  Depending on one's definition of government, women have an equal or greater role in it than men.  Even areas that require physical strength are sometimes female ones in the Qun -- farming, for instance, and craftsmanship would include blacksmithing.  It's occurred to me that women are probably responsible for the creation of each person's "asala", including the army's weapons. 

 

As for why we haven't seen a female saarebas, or any other female qunari (species) in the games until now, it's for the same reason there were no female dwarves in DA2.  In a choice among genders, the real world still picks men first.  Canonically, saarebas are not recognized as having gender at all, so we should have seen males and females in roughly equal numbers.

 

The World of Thedas uses "kossith" to refer to the qunari species, including in the present, so it would technically not be incorrect for us to use it.  However it's not even known by very many in-universe, so it would be strange to hear it from anyone but an academic in Thedas.  I have wondered if some well-read Tal-Vashoth might know the term and try to reclaim it.

[Maria Caliban]

Oh, to answer the other question, you can use 'kossith.'

If someone acts snitty because you used it, be sure to liberally pepper it into your posts; it's a community service.

[Cat Fancy]

Is not what "worker Qunari" means, here is a quote from the Wiki. 

 

She represents the embodiment of the industrial, agricultural and mercantile aspect of the Qunari government, having oversight over what the Qunari believe to be the 'mind' of their society. The Arigena is always a female.^[1]

The merchants and craftsmen are charged with the construction of all necessities for the Qunari such as weapons, building materials or food, and with its fair distribution amongst the believers of the Qun.

 

How do you get head of the hearth and home from that? The Qunari have no hearth and home. 

 

You are forgetting the Tamassrans. The Tamassrans are an exclusively female role and they basically rule Qunari society. 

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran This is obviously a more powerful position than Ben-Hassrath and it's exclusively female. Allthough the Qunari do not see it this way their society appears to mostly be female lead. 

 

I used the phrase "hearth and home" (which people are getting quite hung up on) because of the way the text was written. I think most people would think find it surprising if it read like this:

 

Arigena: Head of the worker Qunari. He is responsible for nurturing Qunari and maintaining health in the community.

 

The language about nurturing, especially, calls to mind to traditional gender roles in human societies. Yes, the qunari are a non-human fantasy race. Women being responsible for crafting weapons is a difference between the Qunari and most human societies. Women being responsible for food preparation and distribution is less so. (also, I'm sure the wiki got most of that info from somewhere, but where? the link to the BSN just has Mary confirming that the Arigena is always female.)

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with the Qunair worldview either but whether it's right or not is not relevent. The Qunari believe in souls and they kinda believe their sole is their role under the Qun (i think), for example Sten's soul was his sword. This whole body, mind, soul of the Qun thing is all a metaphor anyway, you seem to be trying to twist it into something it really isn't without much justification. 

 

I know it's a metaphor. I was analyzing that metaphor. I firmly believe that body>mind and spirit. If that metaphor accurately reflects Qunari society, it's telling.

 

So you did remember the Tamassrans, when it suited you to.

This is why I always read someone's full post before I start fisking it.

 

 

 

Also your comparison is bad. Some women are teachers in harry potter, not all of them. if that was the case would you still assume men held all the power? Maybe you would idk. You also can't compare real life societies to this one and then act like that proves your point. 

I don't assume men generally hold more power than women in the Harry Potter universe because women are teachers. I was making a joke about sentient hats. I do think that the Potterverse is a bit sexist because it takes place in 90s Britain which, like most human societies on earth, is at least a little sexist. (I don't think "sexist" or "patriarchal" are synonyms for "the worst and most unbearable things imaginable") I'll reiterate my point about teachers and primary caregivers below.

 

World of Thedas' main text is objective. So if it says that their society is a certain way, that's how it is.

The World of Thedas says this about the Tamassrans:

 

Because they raise the society's children, the Tamassrans wield great influence.

 

You could say that about teachers and caregivers in many patriarchal societies. And (mostly female) teachers and caregivers will agree. I agree! They have wield great influence. I'm not sure I'd say they wield the most influence at all. But Tamassrans select someone's role at twelve. They wield great influence in the sphere education until just before the end of tweenhood. I wouldn't say this indicates a female-led society, or that the Tamassrans are leaders. David Gaider said that an outsider might view this society as female-led, but the Qunari don't see that way. (and I certainly don't)

 

The other text I quoted from WoT was someone's in-universe writing. It is objectively what she wrote in the universe, but that doesn't mean she's right.

 

 

 

Well Qunari society is not the same as the real world. Whether men are in charge of the real world doesn't matter because Qunari are different. You're looking at Qunari society through the lenses of what is familiar in our society. Qunari seem to place much more value on meritocracy than what is socially expected of you.

Don't the Qunari place a lot value on doing what is socially expected of you? They receive roles at twelve and have to fulfill as best they can for the rest of their lives. The Qunari are different from humans both biologically and culturally in some respects, (keep in mind that their are Qunari of many races, including humans, of course) but not all. I feel comfortable saying their religious policy is anti-clerical and very similar to Enver Hoxha's (bonkers Albanian communist dictator). And, again, the Qunari strike me as patriarchal.

[Cat Fancy]

 

I don't think the Qunari would claim anything if you accused them of being patriarchal and misogynistic. I think they would indoctrinate you.  

 

If they are "bad Qunari" and they don't agree with the Qun they will be re-educated or killed. If they abandon the Qun then they are not Qunari. 

 

Tal-Vashoth are not Qunari. 

Does it make a difference whether or not Qunari is capitalized or not? I guess, probably. Then I was talking about qunari (kossith/whatever), living in Par Vollen who disavowed entirely or just had doubts about aspects of the Qun. Perhaps they aren't "Qunari," which means they might (do) have a difference perspective on the Qunari faith/religion.

 

I don't really care for the gender argument against the Qunari myself.

 

They are antagonistic to individuality in general. Not gender. That's enough for me.

I'm not really using their potentially patriarchal society as an argument against them. I don't like either patriarchy or totalitarianism, but other people are free to disagree. The Qunari definitely practice at least one, according to Mary Kirby, anyway. Not that I equate any kind of patriarchy with totalitarianism, either. I agree that totalitarianism would be my primary concern with the Qunari. As I've said, I'm pushing back against the consensus that some people have come to that the Qunari don't have a patriarchal society.

 

 

 I don't know if you are 100% trolling right now or just being snarky to demonstrate the absurdity of the discussion, 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

As for not showing a female Saarebas.... I really don't have to tell you what a bad idea it would be to make the first ever female qunari leashed and collared, do I?  I mean... I think it's pretty clear why that would have been a very poor choice. 

Perhaps you're right. Or... it would have been a very good choice for showcasing the bone-deep hatred of women and misogyny of the Qunari people that I've been saying exists.

 

Mass Effect also had a species where the women were 'in charge' but you only dealt with men because women don't leave their homes (Salaraians) and where the sexes where equal but you only ever saw men until that one DLC (turians.)

Also, I think they made male quarian models in ME2 because otherwise there would need to be an explanation if we only ever saw female quarians.

-

The United States is one country that, like the Qunari, operates with a separation of powers. Do you think it would be weird if someone believed that one branch of government were more powerful than the others? I'm not saying Qunari governance isn't complicated. I am saying that all Qunari hate all women.

 

What I am also, sincerely saying is that I don't think the idea that the Qunari are a patriarchal society is a laughable proposition, whereas some people in the threads I linked in the OP seemed to.

[Lady Nuggins]

Isn't it just a result of writers wanting to create more varied, unique and even more equal societies but being restricted by other aspects of development? The Turian's for example I believe someone from bioware said that it was a matter of resources. It's not a good excuse and the reason they chose to make males instead of females essentially boils down to patriarchy but that isn't the writer's fault. The intent was probably to have allot more females but males were picked over females because of patriarchy.

 

That doesn't mean the artist is failing to understand true equality because he/she is from a patriarchal society though. That just means bioware chose to do one thing over another because of patriarchal norms.

 

As for the Qunari, I guess it's about how they were always intended to be. Every other race in DA has pretty good female representation (except dwarves in DA2) it seems like the Qunari were set up to seem that way to an outsider. Picking them out as an example of failure to represent women seems a bit dishonest DA is not ME. At least the female Qunari was not sexualised in the demo and hopefully we will be seeing more females in game.    

 

To an extent.  I really question why a purely matriarchal society somehow evolved to become an entire race of strippers.  

 

But yes, I do think that for the qunari in particular, like the turians and salarians, the limitations of development have hindered our view of them.  I feel that we haven't really "met" the qunari yet at all because of this.  

[Cat Fancy]

The World of Thedas uses "kossith" to refer to the qunari species, including in the present, so it would technically not be incorrect for us to use it.  However it's not even known by very many in-universe, so it would be strange to hear it from anyone but an academic in Thedas.  I have wondered if some well-read Tal-Vashoth might know the term and try to reclaim it.

I've seen this argument before. I agree that it makes sense for people in-universe to use qunari to mean the species and not know what a kossith is. It would like a historical game where Christian Europeans called all Ottoman Muslims "Turks" and even called Christians in the Empire "Christian Turks." But we on this forum are not in the 18th century or Thedas. We can do otherwise. I don't really mind one way or another, though, and I don't feel the burning need to call start calling them kossith.

 

Oh, to answer the other question, you can use 'kossith.'

If someone acts snitty because you used it, be sure to liberally pepper it into your posts; it's a community service.

but perhaps I should.

[mikeymoonshine]

To an extent.  I really question why a purely matriarchal society somehow evolved to become an entire race of strippers.  

 

But yes, I do think that for the qunari in particular, like the turians and salarians, the limitations of development have hindered our view of them.  I feel that we haven't really "met" the qunari yet at all because of this.  

 

The Asari are a whole other story, i'm not gonna argue that they weren't evidence of patriarchy (or whatever). 

[Lady Nuggins]

I am saying that all Qunari hate all women.

 

That's a pretty bold statement.  I don't think even your original argument supports that. 

 

I don't think it's inconceivable that it's a sexist society, either, but I don't think it can be nailed down as easily as that.

[Cat Fancy]

That's a pretty bold statement.  I don't think even your original argument supports that. 

that was a joke

-

I think it's fair to judge fantasy cultures as being sexist based on what we see in the game. It's understandable why the technical limitations have led to these situations, of course. Still, death of the author. Death of the game designer. Death to all game designers. Death to America!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What is a 'brocialist'? 

[Lady Nuggins]

that was a joke

-

I think it's fair to judge fantasy cultures as being sexist based on what we see in the game. It's understandable why the technical limitations have led to these situations, of course. Still, death of the author. Death of the game designer. Death to all game designers. Death to America!

 

See, I mostly figured you were joking, but you're making it pretty hard to tell which parts of your posts are the joke and which parts you're being serious about.  And I figured it would be better to give you a chance to clarify that before someone actually got angry.  This is a sensitive bunch. 

 

I agree.  And if Dragon Age stopped with DAII, then I would say that no amount of codexes would make that okay.  But the existence of a playable female qunari makes me think that DAI will dramatically expand on the gender roles in qunari society (why make that build if they don't plan to use it?).  Thus, I'm willing to let them gloss over the limitations of the past two games, and treat whatever DAI has in store for us as a more definitive picture of qunari.

[mikeymoonshine]

I used the phrase "hearth and home" (which people are getting quite hung up on) because of the way the text was written. I think most people would think find it surprising if it read like this:

 

It just seemed like you were misrepresenting those roles a bit.

 

 

Women being responsible for crafting weapons is a difference between the Qunari and most human societies. Women being responsible for food preparation and distribution is less so. (also, I'm sure the wiki got most of that info from somewhere, but where? the link to the BSN just has Mary confirming that the Arigena is always female.)

 

 

This is a bit picky and choosey though isn't it? Accept the facts that fit and ignore those that don't? 

 

Also farming and distribution of food isn't typically a stereotypical female job under patriarchy (although it probably has been in some societies) preparation of food could be described as that but it's not right to say these are the same thing. A wide verity of stereotypical male roles are female roles to the Qunari. 

 

I know it's a metaphor. I was analyzing that metaphor. I firmly believe that body>mind and spirit. If that metaphor accurately reflects Qunari society, it's telling.

 

My point was your criticism of it did not work because it was a metaphor. You theorized that the mind and spirit should not matter as much as the body to them because of their godless and somewhat materialistic beliefs. I was just pointing out that they do matter, the Qunari view them as just as important. They use the metaphor to describe how those parts of their society are just as important as the Antaam. 

 

This is why I always read someone's full post before I start fisking it.

 

Well I did but I mostly only read the first half as I was not sure how much of it I wanted to address. I left that part in because it was still relevant anyway. 

 

The World of Thedas says this about the Tamassrans:

 

You could say that about teachers and caregivers in many patriarchal societies. And (mostly female) teachers and caregivers will agree. I agree! They have wield great influence. I'm not sure I'd say they wield the most influence at all. But Tamassrans select someone's role at twelve. They wield great influence in the sphere education until just before the end of tweenhood. I wouldn't say this indicates a female-led society, or that the Tamassrans are leaders. David Gaider said that an outsider might view this society as female-led, but the Qunari don't see that way. (and I certainly don't)

 

Well downplayed or not the influence is there. They also have allot of influence other than teaching and raising kids. They are not simply teachers. 

 

Tamassrans perform the following functions in the Qunari society:

• Control the Qunari selective breeding program by deciding who mates^[4], and if so - with whom.^[1] This refers to the Qunari of all races, including humans and elves. At that, Tamassrans don't cross-breed races with other races.^[5]
• Give names to newborn children.^[6] These "names" are strings of genealogical information that the Tamassrans use to keep track of recessive and dominant traits the individual may be carrying. The Qunari themselves use their job titles rather than their "names" to call one another.^[1][7][8]
• Raise all the children and give them their general education.^[1]
• When the Qunari children reach the age of 12, evaluate them and officially assign their roles.^[1][2]
• Look after those Qunari who are not mentally able, or are too physically impaired to function without a lot of help.^[1]
• Use the substance called qamek to "free those beyond redemption," i.e. to turn them into mindless creatures ("viddath-bas").^[9]

They also seem to be involved in the re-education and indoctrination aspects as well as sort of overseeing the Ben-Hassrath. This is just what we know about them, I am sure there is more that we don't. 

 

The Qunari don't see it that way because they don't think anyone leads their society You don't because you have already decided they are patriarchal and nothing anyone says will change your mind, but we are here anyway. 

[KainD]

No one in the Qunari society holds power, regardless of gender. Responsibility =/= power. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The World of Thedas says this about the Tamassrans:

 

You could say that about teachers and caregivers in many patriarchal societies. And (mostly female) teachers and caregivers will agree. I agree! They have wield great influence. I'm not sure I'd say they wield the most influence at all. But Tamassrans select someone's role at twelve. They wield great influence in the sphere education until just before the end of tweenhood. I wouldn't say this indicates a female-led society, or that the Tamassrans are leaders. David Gaider said that an outsider might view this society as female-led, but the Qunari don't see that way. (and I certainly don't)

 

The other text I quoted from WoT was someone's in-universe writing. It is objectively what she wrote in the universe, but that doesn't mean she's right.

 

Except the Tamassrans aren't the equivalent of just teachers in the real world. They are the ones who raise Qunari and exclusively determine their fate.They are the sole reason Qunari think what think and act how they act. They decide the role of the every Qunari. Their influence doesn't just end when a Qunari turns 12. Sten behaves the way he does because the Tamassrans trained him that way. They have the most influence on all of the Qunari.

 

I know it's a metaphor. I was analyzing that metaphor. I firmly believe that body>mind and spirit. If that metaphor accurately reflects Qunari society, it's telling.

 

The Qunari don't believe that. If they are Qunari metaphors then what the metaphors mean to the Qunari is all that matters. And as I said there are things in Thedas that exist without bodies.

 

 

The other text I quoted from WoT was someone's in-universe writing. It is objectively what she wrote in the universe, but that doesn't mean she's right.

 

The Rivaini Seer's opinion is her opinion, true. But in this case she's not wrong. She's saying that the Qunari military is not the only or most important part of them. What IS objective though is that section talking about the Qunari Triumvirate. It says it's a mistake to consider the Arishok their king. Therefore, it is a mistake to consider the Arishok their king. He has a very specific purview that is his task to oversee. He can't control or overrule the others.

 

And, again, the Qunari strike me as patriarchal.

 

Based on what? That only men are allowed in the army? The rule of the Qun is not military. If anything the reverse is true. The Antaam exists only to spread the ideals of the Qun. But it's the Priesthood that decides and maintains what those ideas are. The Qunari men in the military have no purpose otherwise. It essence they are at the service of the Ariqun. In fact if you consider the actual importance of the roles of the Qun in the metaphor of Mind Body and Soul of the Qun, the Soul of the Qun is the most important. A Qunari could conceivably exist without an army. They could not exist without the priesthood. Otherwise they would not be Qunari. The men might do the expanding, but the women decide what it is the men expand.

 

What exactly would the Qunari have to be in order to qualify as not being patriarchal?

[mikeymoonshine]

Does it make a difference whether or not Qunari is capitalized or not? I guess, probably. Then I was talking about qunari (kossith/whatever), living in Par Vollen who disavowed entirely or just had doubts about aspects of the Qun. Perhaps they aren't "Qunari," which means they might (do) have a difference perspective on the Qunari faith/religion.

 

I use Qunari for the society and qunari for the race. I generally assumed you were talking about the society. 

 

Um anyway, there are no non Qunari qunari living in Par Vollen, at least not openly. I am sure many have doubts but I don't know how tat is relevant to whether or not the Qunari are patriarchal. They can't behave differently because of those doubts, if they do they would be re-educated, made into a slave or killed. If you are saying that some qunari/vashoth/Tal-vashoth/Qunari with doubts could be sexist towards women then sure, they could but I don't see the point of speculating on this. It doesn't change anything about the Qun. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

So the topic title is offensive to:
Qunari.
Men.

Women.

Socialist.

And frat members.

 

Did I miss anyone?

[In Exile]

The problem with the view in the OP is that men don't seem to necessarily have a lot of political power in Qunari society. That seems to be the basic requirement to a patriarchy. 

[In Exile]

To an extent.  I really question why a purely matriarchal society somehow evolved to become an entire race of strippers.  

 

But yes, I do think that for the qunari in particular, like the turians and salarians, the limitations of development have hindered our view of them.  I feel that we haven't really "met" the qunari yet at all because of this.  

 

The asari make me vomit in my mouth a little every time I think about their "society" in ME. It's the usual, "have you ever met women?" type of thought I get when people try to write women and fail quite badly. 

[Maria Caliban]

No one in the Qunari society holds power, regardless of gender. Responsibility =/= power.

I'd consider ordering your followers to burn and sack a city, and having them obey, power.

[Maria Caliban]

Isn't it just a result of writers wanting to create more varied, unique and even more equal societies but being restricted by other aspects of development?

Possibly.

I’m stating that there’s frequently a gap between what we’re told of the world and what we’re shown. Star Trek, for example, was supposed to be a gender equal society, yet men walked around in pants while women wore miniskirts. If someone asks me ‘Is the Federation a model of gender equality?’ why those actresses ended up wearing miniskirts is less important to me than that it happened.

Another example: Starfire from DC comics. She’s a princess from matriarchy… which is also a culture where nudity is common place.

You never see sexy alien dudes from cultures where nudity is commonplace. Why this happens for a specific character/culture/show is less interesting me than the larger pattern.
 

That doesn't mean the artist is failing to understand true equality because he/she is from a patriarchal society though. That just means bioware chose to do one thing over another because of patriarchal norms.

Patriarchal norms that exist because of society.

When the Assassins’ Creed devs decides that they won’t have female models in its multiplayer because that would be too much extra time and effort, that decision happens inside a larger industry model that gives us mostly male heroes and characters, and so insures male character models and animations will always be available.

It’s the same thing as BioWare talking about its previous graphic engines not doing darker skin well. Why was that? Because the system was designed with white skin in mind; if it couldn’t do fair skin well, it would have been worked on until it reached the appropriate level of fidelity.

What bodies are considered ‘standard’ and which ones are labeled ‘extra’ is totally a product of society.

Edit: Rereading your post, it's possible that you think when I say artists I only mean the writers. I mean everyone involved with the development. Some of the most interesting parts of games have nothing to do with the writing. Things like first person view vs third person fixed vs third person where the player has control impact the experience of playing the game, and so are aesthetic elements.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The Qunari may have flaws but they do not view the sexes in the same binary way feminists and gender ideologues do. 

 

To the Qun, it is not about men vs. women. To them, such things are petty and pathetic. It is akin to cogs vs gears or pulleys vs levers in machine. It is laughable.

 

The Qunari are all about roles and efficiency. Roles define their entire system. It is a fundamental concept of the Qun. 

 

The Qunari just assign people according to whichever role the priestesses think the said person would be most efficient in. Contrary to what Sten in DA:O, now probably an Arishok in DA:I, says, women in Qunari society, if they are shown to be able to act as efficient fighters, would most probably be placed in a fighter role. 

 

Tallis is a good example of this. She is a female. An elf. A once outsider to the Qun. Yet she works as a spy for the religious enforcement arm of the Qun because the Qun via the priestesses have determine that the role as a saboteur is the role that is most efficient for her. 

 

The Qunari and the Qun are all about efficiency and roles at the expense of individuality, self interests and self-determinism. That is what they are ultimately. 

 

The reason Qunari society seems to alien to us is because it is a society that suppresses something that is fundamental to the nature of living beings for the sake of society and that is self interest. 

 

For people who want order, conformity, efficiency, life as a subscriber to the Qun faith is a good one. For people who are independent, self reliant, self determinists the Qun is not for you.

 

If you really want to turn the discussion of the Qun into something binary and simplistic like men vs. women, I could put out the argument that the Qun is matriarchal. 

 

Why ? Because those who determine the roles of the peoples in Qunari society are female. Those who are responsible for indoctrination towards the Qunari ideologue are females. Those who command respect are Tamassarans, who are female. 

 

i could go even further and say that since the Qun generally does not let women take on combat roles, they are misandric because they are letting the men die in order to spread their faith and teachings. I am pretty sure being artisans and priests are much safer vocations than being mage-leashers and frontline warriors. 

 

However that would make no rational sense since this line of thought does not attempt to understand Qunari or the Qun but merely to sideline it into a version of binary simplistic reality that the OP looks up to. 

 

Patriarchy is simply a societal system where the male is the head of the household / family structure. It in no way equates to oppression. This also means the Qun is not patriarchal at all, because surprise, surprise, the Qun do not have any family structures and the women in Qunari societies hold respected positions. 

 

So before talking about brocialists or patriarchy or anything of the sort, understand that the world and the history of the world does not function in binaries. Additionally, understand that framing everything in binaries does not help in understanding something as well. 

 

[Maria Caliban]

Patriarchy is simply a societal system where the male is the head of the household / family structure. It in no way equates to oppression.

How is that not oppression?

If I'm a woman and I want to be the head of household, I'm denied that ability. Being the head of a household/family structure is a position of socioeconomic power. If an entire class of people is denied socioeconomic power and only allowed to be subservient, that's oppression.

[Maria Caliban]

IIRC, it's determined at birth.

Something like: they decide they need more warriors, breed a warrior with a woman whose father was a warrior, and any boys born will be warriors.