107 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Nope. I don't think so. Maevaris Tilani is a transgender who was married to a Dwarf. Fenris is from Tevinter and he swings both ways. Granted, he was a slave there but still. 

 

I think what David Gaider is alluding to is that, as long as you come from a powerful family line of magisters inTevinter, you have a duty to spread your seed, as it is, in order to keep the family bloodline going. After that, who you sleep with or engage in sex with is not a problem. 

 

Dorian seems to be someone who has strong principles and his going his own way and living his life in his own terms. The terms which are against the norms of Tevinter; hence, he is labelled as and is proud to be an outcast. 

 

Not because he is gay. 

 

I actually find it worrying that Bioware seems to portray Tevinter as this land of ultimate evil. It is a bad place but I hope with Bioware's expertise in writing gray stories as opposed to black and white could be used in Tevinter as well. As in, yes, Tevinter has its blood magic and slavery but the idea of mages ruling society should not be something that is just shunned and hated upon. 

[Heimdall]

Nope. I don't think so. Maevaris Tilani is a transgender who was married to a Dwarf. Fenris is from Tevinter and he swings both ways. Granted, he was a slave there but still.

I think what David Gaider is alluding to is that, as long as you come from a powerful family line of magisters inTevinter, you have a duty to spread your seed, as it is, in order to keep the family bloodline going. After that, who you sleep with or engage in sex with is not a problem.

Dorian seems to be someone who has strong principles and his going his own way and living his life in his own terms. The terms which are against the norms of Tevinter; hence, he is labelled as and is proud to be an outcast.

Not because he is gay.

I actually find it worrying that Bioware seems to portray Tevinter as this land of ultimate evil. It is a bad place but I hope with Bioware's expertise in writing gray stories as opposed to black and white could be used in Tevinter as well. As in, yes, Tevinter has its blood magic and slavery but the idea of mages ruling society should not be something that is just shunned and hated upon.

David also said that Dorian believes his homeland has redeeming qualities, so that'll be interesting to hear.

[ReadingRambo220]

In contrast to Tevinter society, I view Dorians point view as unselfish. Having a loveless marriage with a woman, where she knows the man runs around with other guys, simply to produce mage babies, seems like a shitty situation. Perhaps Dorian thinks this as well.

I suppose the woman could have lovers as well, but the situation would still be unfulfilling I imagine.

[Mecha Elf]

Nooo dorians full gay ): my feminquisitor is out of luck then. I'm disapointed but only because women cannot romance that stache. Ah oh well.

[frylock23]

It seems to me that Tevinter's culture is loosely patterned off of Rome. In Rome open homosexuality, especially among the upper classes was frowned upon, not because it was something they felt you shouldn't do, but because you had certain duties to your family. One of them was to marry and produce heirs. It was also not exactly considered the most manly of things and went against the Roman noble idea of how a nobleman ought to comport himself in public life.

 

Once you got out of the public eye, how you comported yourself and with whom was your own business. They just liked it to be discreet. 

[BloodyTalon]

In contrast to Tevinter society, I view Dorians point view as unselfish. Having a loveless marriage with a woman, where she knows the man runs around with other guys, simply to produce mage babies, seems like a shitty situation. Perhaps Dorian thinks this as well.

I suppose the woman could have lovers as well, but the situation would still be unfulfilling I imagine.

Yup and even irl among nobles during the olden times happen quite a lot.

[gangly369]

Nope. I don't think so. Maevaris Tilani is a transgender who was married to a Dwarf. Fenris is from Tevinter and he swings both ways. Granted, he was a slave there but still. 

 

I think what David Gaider is alluding to is that, as long as you come from a powerful family line of magisters inTevinter, you have a duty to spread your seed, as it is, in order to keep the family bloodline going. After that, who you sleep with or engage in sex with is not a problem. 

 

Dorian seems to be someone who has strong principles and his going his own way and living his life in his own terms. The terms which are against the norms of Tevinter; hence, he is labelled as and is proud to be an outcast. 

 

Not because he is gay. 

 

I actually find it worrying that Bioware seems to portray Tevinter as this land of ultimate evil. It is a bad place but I hope with Bioware's expertise in writing gray stories as opposed to black and white could be used in Tevinter as well. As in, yes, Tevinter has its blood magic and slavery but the idea of mages ruling society should not be something that is just shunned and hated upon. 

 

Pretty much all of this

[Devtek]

This seems to be the go-to argument, but it ignores the very obvious fact that nothing has ever, EVER stopped a person from performing their familial duties while still taking lovers on the side.  It's an extremely bad argument because fertility has never been negatively impacted by one's sexual preferences, and history is replete with examples of noble personages happily f*cking whomever their please even while they carry out their obligations to provide heirs.  There's no reason in the world for this to necessitate Tevinter having a societal taboo against nobles engaging in non-hetero sexual relations.  Obviously there would be a societal impetus to engage in procreative relationships that DID perpetuate strong bloodlines, but that hardly negates the possibility of companionate relationships.  

 

In our world those noble personages would have faced all manner of problems if their same gender daliances were more than "known unknowns".  Such things varied from place to place.  There were (and still are in some places) the same societal taboos against anyone engaging in non-hetero relations; nobles simply could get away with more, as the obviously do in Tevinter as well. Using percieved real world expectations / ideas to describe a whole fictional empire based upon the experience of a single fictional person is slippery at best.

[Nashimura]

I think this applies all over thedas in certain circles... like for example, Feraldan nobles wouldn't want there only heir to be homosexual, or say... the king. In tevinter they probably don't care to much what the average citizen is doing. 

[Chiramu]

Old laws, old beliefs. There was a lot of homosexuality in our olden times but people hid it, they got married and had kids but they had their homosexual flings on the side.

 

I guess this is why Dorian looks so pretty. 

[SwobyJ]

In Tevinter, homosexuality isn't taboo. Heck, it's probably less taboo than in Ferelden.

 

But in a sense, 'gayness' or especially 'queerness' might be. In a way.

 

Gay in the sense of 'here and homosexual, and happy to be exclusively homosexual, and fit my life around that instead of fit my homosexuality into my life'.

 

Many societies, and heck, self-described 'progressive' families still go "Well I support you, but I really want a grandchild", for example. And in these cases, adoption is at best a compromise - they want blood related grandchildren.

 

This sentiment is probably much stronger in a land where magical power carries 'genetically'.

 

Orlais, on the other hand, sounds somewhat opposite. Not really supportive of it persay (less than Tevinter usually is), but the upper crust also doesn't have nearly as much care if one engages in homosexual activities unless there's a very specific reason.

 

Pretty sure areas like Rivian (considering how it seems to treat lots of things like Qun and Mages) doesn't care, in the supportive way (oh that's great). And Ferelden (considering its protectionism, not just militarily but culturally) doesn't care, but in the more unsupportive way (keep it to yourself).

 

Nowhere in Thedas are large populations openly hostile to homosexuals/gays/queers. The writers instead shift that level of hostility themes towards things like (fantasy) racial discrimination, (fantasy) religious dispute, and mage/templar problems. Mass Effect also does this, using concepts like 'species', and 'synthetics'. Bioware doesn't really want people to get in angry arguments about IRL sexualities, gender identities, governments, religions, etc. But it would be nice if we internally question ourselves and have positive discussions with those close to us.

[SwobyJ]

I think this applies all over thedas in certain circles... like for example, Feraldan nobles wouldn't want there only heir to be homosexual, or say... the king. In tevinter they probably don't care to much what the average citizen is doing. 

 

Yes that's the interesting bit.

 

IMO Tevinter would absolutely accept a homosexual leader. But you MUST have a child and an opposite sex partner in it. You're wrecking not just your bloodline, but your MAGICAL line if you avoid that.

 

But Ferelden, even though it surely cares about royal lines, likely wouldn't mind a particularly heroic/great leader/king who doesn't have a child, but just an established line of succession. But at the same time, would really be irked if that leader was an open homosexual.

 

Just guessing though.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

It seems to me that Tevinter's culture is loosely patterned off of Rome. In Rome open homosexuality, especially among the upper classes was frowned upon, not because it was something they felt you shouldn't do, but because you had certain duties to your family. One of them was to marry and produce heirs. It was also not exactly considered the most manly of things and went against the Roman noble idea of how a nobleman ought to comport himself in public life.

 

Once you got out of the public eye, how you comported yourself and with whom was your own business. They just liked it to be discreet. 

 

Actually it wasn't so much homosexuality that was frowned on but the role taken in the act, homosexuality among the nobles was considered ok provided they took the dominant (male) role in the act rather than the submissive (female) role.

[SwobyJ]

Actually it wasn't so much homosexuality that was frowned on but the role taken in the act, homosexuality among the nobles was considered ok provided they took the dominant (male) role in the act rather than the submissive (female) role.

 

Yep. It still exists that to be submissive is the huge no-no for a man, by other mens' (and some womens') views. Even in the more general and symbolic m/f relations. Homosexual relations just accentuates that more literal imagery (lol), and thus the discrimination. "Not a real man."

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

but I hope with Bioware's expertise in writing gray stories.

 

And what expertise is that? Which stories are you referring to exactly?

[Urazz]

I think it's more likely that it's frowned upon Tevinter nobility to be openly gay and not get married to someone of the opposite gender to continue the family at least.  I don't think the Tevinter nobility would care about Dorian married some other female noble and had a kid with her and has some other male lovers on the side.

[SwobyJ]

I think it's more likely that it's frowned upon Tevinter nobility to be openly gay and not get married to someone of the opposite gender to continue the family at least.  I don't think the Tevinter nobility would care about Dorian married some other female noble and had a kid with her and has some other male lovers on the side.

 

Bearding. A tradition that is millenia long.

[Medhia_Nox]

Interesting that we focus on hating Tevinter for homophobia - instead of celebrating the idea that Bioware put in a gay character that wouldn't play it straight to appease the majority.

 

Tevinter is a draconian society based on magical eugenics... you don't get eugenics of any kind if you don't breed.  It's that simple. 

 

If I'm annoyed at anything - it is that the exclusively gay character is a mage.  I am, however, happy that it's not a waif of an elf again though.

[Mes]

Interesting that we focus on hating Tevinter for homophobia 

 

I think it's awesome. Look how immersed in the lore people are. It's fun to read these discussions.

[Lebanese Dude]

Interesting that we focus on hating Tevinter for homophobia - instead of celebrating the idea that Bioware put in a gay character that wouldn't play it straight to appease the majority.

 

Tevinter is a draconian society based on magical eugenics... you don't get eugenics of any kind if you don't breed.  It's that simple. 

 

If I'm annoyed at anything - it is that the exclusively gay character is a mage.  I am, however, happy that it's not a waif of an elf again though.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth

[Xilizhra]

Interesting that we focus on hating Tevinter for homophobia - instead of celebrating the idea that Bioware put in a gay character that wouldn't play it straight to appease the majority.

 

Tevinter is a draconian society based on magical eugenics... you don't get eugenics of any kind if you don't breed.  It's that simple. 

 

If I'm annoyed at anything - it is that the exclusively gay character is a mage.  I am, however, happy that it's not a waif of an elf again though.

Wait, when was there ever an exclusively gay elf?

[andar91]

I think others have probably said this, and I haven't read the whole thread, but:

 

I didn't quite interpret it that way. I don't think it's that same-sex relationships are taboo so much as magic is all-important and they breed for it. So if you're a mage noble (and Dorian is), you're expected to have children to propagate a magical lineage. It probably would have been fine if he had agreed to still marry a woman and have kids - my guess is that he didn't agree to that.

[Ianamus]

Interesting that we focus on hating Tevinter for homophobia - instead of celebrating the idea that Bioware put in a gay character that wouldn't play it straight to appease the majority.

 

Because that ship has long since sailed. Sera was already confirmed to be the first openly gay companion in a Bioware game a few weeks ago, so it's already been accepted that gay companions in Inquisition is a thing.

 

As for the Tevinter issue other people seem to have the gist of it. Same-sex relationships with slaves or commoners is not frowned upon, but refusing to procreate and having same gender affairs with other Magisters is not considered acceptable behavior. 

[Ailith Tycane]

From what I can tell it is only frowned upon if you're a Tevinter noble. It seems like as long as you have lots of powerful mage babies with another noble they don't care who you sleep with on the side.

 

Probably this. I don't think Tevinter mages care all that much just so long as you make more Tevinter mage babies at some point.