20 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Has it been indicated anywhere what the chances are of two mages having a mage child?   

Hawke's Mum said her family were unhappy about her marrying a mage because it brought more mage blood into the family but there is no evidence it necessarily did, since she might not have been carrying a mage gene herself.  Cleary if she were, it would have to be recessive, since she did not display any ability.

 

Now apparently Tevinter is very big on mages "doing their duty" and having more mage children and it is "shameful" and "deviant" if you don't.   So are the Tevinter affected by a low birth rate (like the dwarves) possibly because of the presence of so much lyrium in their environment?   You see, as Sebastian explains, most noble families aim to have at least one heir and a spare in case anything happens to the eldest.   This would also mean that if the heir didn't seem inclined to marry, the spare could do their duty instead.   However, if a mage to mage union was not guaranteed to produce a mage, then I can begin to see why they might want to increase the odds by having all their children marry, in order to increase the chances of at least one of their offspring being a mage.    So they could have really large families of children but only one or two mages.

 

Which brings me to another question.    Clearly the Tevinter nobles see it as important to produce mages as they hold the ultimate power.    However, what about non-mage nobles?    What is their role in society?    Do they encourage them to breed in case they produce a mage or are they not so concerned in their case if they do not?     Do they mostly end up in the ranks of the Templars?   Hence the Templars never getting anywhere in their enquiries about corruption, since many of their members have a vested interest in ensuring they do not.    Tevinter is seen as a mage dominated society but if the proportion of mage to non-mage births is pretty much the same as the rest of Thedas, there have to be a fair number of non-mage nobles.

[Eveangaline]

How do you know their proportion of mage to non mage births is the same as the other countries?

[Pierce Miller]

There are no non-mage nobles. Remember there is only one noble class within Tevinter. Magister.

[Natashina]

There are no non-mage nobles. Remember there is only one noble class within Tevinter. Magister.

Yep.  And op, the word you are looking for is Begetting.

[Gervaise]

Thanks for the spelling lesson!    There have to be non-mage nobles.   At one time, before the Black Chantry, mages weren't allowed to have positions in government but the noble families still controlled these, whilst the mages controlled things behind the scenes.   Hence them eventually getting bored with the pretence and breaking away from the Orlesian Chantry and its dogma.    So I'm assuming that now the non-mage family members fill minor positions in government, like administrators and possibly diplomats to other countries which might object to dealing with a mage, just as the Orlesians use mages for diplomatic duties in Tevinter.    We hear about how bad it is for commoners and particularly slaves in Tevinter but never anything about non-mage nobility.    This is why I was wondering what the proportion of mage to non-mage children was from mage to mage unions as against mage to non-mage.

[Natashina]

No, there is only one type of noble class: Magister.  From the DA wiki:

 

When humans first came to mainland Thedas, several tribes spread across Thedas, but it was the Tevinters, centered on the port-city of Minrathous, who became the most prolific. The land was at first ruled by a dynasty of kings.[18] Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient (0 TE), the premier magister lord of the Tevinter Dynasty,[17] Archon Darinius, took power as its first Archon and founded the Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy. Darinius was the first human to successfully ally with the dwarves of Kal-Sharok and traded extensively with them.[19] A body of dwarven representatives titled "Ambassadoria" was established during that time to advise the Tevinter leaders and manage trade relations between the Imperium and the dwarven kingdoms. The Archon Thalsian, one of the first magisters, claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat to learn blood magic, which he used to declare himself the ruler of an empire. Thalsian established temples to worship dragons, which became a symbol of power within the Imperium. He created the "Altus" as the ruling class, also known as "The Magisters", while his pupils formed the noble houses that ruled the empire for millennia.

 

 

 

The Tevinter Imperium is still governed by powerful magic-users through a form of magocracy. It is almost universally reviled by other nations. Its nobility is known to be over-indulgent, and slavery is still practiced. The Imperium is the center of the black market, smuggling (including the harboring of mage fugitives from other lands) and the slave trade. Tevinter would crumble without slaves, given that it is the only way to support their economy. History shows how deeply committed they are to the practice; when an archon once outlawed it [slavery], the archon was quickly assassinated. Though slave rebellions occur frequently, the Imperial Senate unites in the face of "sedition" to suppress them. Though merely a shadow of its former glory, the Imperium is still a very powerful nation with considerable military might. It would turn on the southern nations were it not diverted by the constant wars with the Qunari.

 

 

http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

 

Mages rule there, and there is no other noble class.  The Black Divine not only allows it, but encourages it.  This is the same nation that believes that Andraste was a mage, and they interpreted the whole "Mages must serve man" dogma differently.

[Maria Caliban]

The qunari keep detailed genealogical records so the Tallahatchians would be the group best able to say if having a mage ancestor increase one's chance of being a mage. The Tevinter seem to believe that having a mage is a product of bloodline, but they don't isolate for social or environmental factors.

[Gervaise]

Yes, but there was a time when they wasn't the case, from the formation of the Chantry until the year the Black Chantry broke away.     The noble houses had non-mages fronting them, with mages behind the scenes.    It was all a big pretence but it would have fallen flat if they didn't have at least some non-mages to use as front men.    Since the noble houses were all complicit in this, I doubt they were using commoners as their front men.

 

It may be just something Fenris tells you but I'm pretty sure there was a codex on this as well.   It was the one to do with the formation of the Black Chantry.   In the intervening period the Chantry dogma was officially the religion throughout Thedas; it was just that in Tevinter it was only a pretence which they eventually decided to do away with.      Then instead of looking to Orlais for their spiritual leadership, they elected their own Divine who was also a mage and I believe this doubled with secular head as well.   (I shall go away now and try and find it).

[Gervaise]

The formation of the Black Chantry was in Towers 3:87, so over 300 years after the formation of the original Chantry.   It specifically states that the rift came about because the Tevinter Chantry reinterpreted the meaning of the Chant concerning magic to argue that mages should be allowed into government, which implies that up to that point they weren't, even though they were pulling the strings behind the scenes.

 

I know World of Thedas seems to have backed tracked on so many things but this lore has been about since DAO, I'm pretty sure.  

 

Also, if the noble houses of Tevinter are entirely composed of mages, what difference would it make if just one member of a house didn't seem inclined to produce a few more?    However, if producing a mage child was not guaranteed, you can see the imperative that everyone does their bit to keep the numbers up.    Just because the rank of Magister is entirely composed of mages, it doesn't necessarily follow that every member of their family is a mage.    Not every mage is a Magister so why does it follow that every noble is a mage?

[Gervaise]

Also point out that the entry concerning the original Magisters only had one type, the Altus, but now they also have the Latens, mages who have come from commoner ranks.    So what was true concerning the ancient Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium before the First Blight does not necessarily hold true for the modern Tevinter Imperium.  

 

There was a period, following the First Blight and then Andraste's  Exalted March, when the rule of the Magisters was far more precarious than it is now.   This is why the Archon thought it expedient to convert to the faith of Andraste because there had been a major backlash against their rule as a result of the First Blight and that is part of the reason why the Exalted March enjoyed such success.       When the Orlesian Chantry was formed, apparently there was no conflict publically with Tevinter over the interpretation of the Chant.   Unless the Chantry in Orlais were extremely dense (a possibility), the reason they co-existed peacefully for 300 years was because they maintained a successful pretence that the Magisters weren't really in charge of government.     For that you need front men/women who aren't mages.

[Panda]

Which brings me to another question.    Clearly the Tevinter nobles see it as important to produce mages as they hold the ultimate power.    However, what about non-mage nobles?    What is their role in society?    Do they encourage them to breed in case they produce a mage or are they not so concerned in their case if they do not?     Do they mostly end up in the ranks of the Templars?   Hence the Templars never getting anywhere in their enquiries about corruption, since many of their members have a vested interest in ensuring they do not.    Tevinter is seen as a mage dominated society but if the proportion of mage to non-mage births is pretty much the same as the rest of Thedas, there have to be a fair number of non-mage nobles.

 

Well this is quite harsh view but in many cultures during history unwanted children has been just get rid off. Chinese didn't want girls during one child policy (they still kind have it?) so many girl babies were murdered. Also Spartanians left weak babies to die. Maybe Tevinter folks feel similarly towards non-mage childs? They could just kill them or give them for servants/slaves/chantry etc. to rise. If they give them to chantry they would most likely become sisters in Chantry or templars.

[Maria Caliban]

Lots of cultures killed infants and children, but you don't know if a child is a mage until around puberty and you can't be sure they're not until adulthood. Killing off a 2 day old child is much easier than killing off a 16-18 year old child.

[Devtek]

I have a feeling that this is partly another thread wondering why Dorian's family was against him being gay but I'll bite anyways.

While in my codine induced fuzzyness (pain killers from surgery on Monday) I can't specifically think of a DA example of spontaneous mageness in any game, everyone in Thedas has magical potential as everyone has mana in them. What determines if a person can actively produce magic is the amount of mana they have. That being said people who are magically inclined have been seen to have increased chance of producing mage offspring. Wynne produced a mage child with a Templar. I believe the original Cole's mother had very minor magical tendencies (can't be sure until I re-read that part of Asunder). The human mage Origin in DAO was related to Hawke's mother who gave birth to at least one mage child with a mage sire. One of the characters in the comics again produced a mage child in a pairing between a Templar and a mage. I believe that circle mages are discouraged from coupling, probably because the templars don't want to have to deal with more mage children than they already have to. Therefore there is strong anecdotal evidence that having at least one mage parent increases the chance of mage children.

As for Tevinter specifically the only nobility that exists is the rank of Magister. Just because you have a magister as a parent doesn't mean you are automatically a noble. Even being a mage doesn't mean you are noble as there are slaves in Tevinter who are mages. Your question regarding "not every mage is a noble, so how does it follow that every noble is a mage" is incongruent. The logic statement that not every mage is noble therefore every noble does not have to be a mage is false logic. This is because the rules for the two states are not the same, they don't have to have the same criteria for being true. RL Example: Not every email is spam but every piece of spam is an email (not counting other definitions of spam).

As for why it seems a problem that one member of the family doesn't want to do "his duty". The only information we have of this is a tiny blurb from an interview. Maybe Dorian is an only child and thus the only way for his family to survive without adopting, which could be seen as breaking a long line of made blooded people and this not have as strong a claim on magisterhood. Maybe he is the oldest son / child of the house (and the rules of primogeniture exist in tevinter). Maybe his siblings have failed to produce a mage child or a child with strong magical abilities. While there are certainly traditions that make no practical sense any longer in many cultures, in a society where the inescapable truth is that if you are not a mage you will never have any real power, people who have that power will promote practices (in this case mages reproducing with other mages) that actually have a real effect on their family / house continuing to have that power. If nothing else having your pure mage blooded mage son pairing with the pure blooded mage daughter of another magister house would create a political union of the two houses that has a higher chance of producing a magister offspring (because it is probably easier for the child of a magister to become a magister due to connections) and thus continuing the house's place of power within the empire. While a same sex union of say two male magisters who want to still future proof their house by adopting a mage child that they know has a magister pedigree could be plausible it might pose a problem. We have no idea how Tevinter views the importance of actual blood relation in regards to inheritance. Maybe adoption is not seen as being equal. Ie an adopted child is thought of as being inferior to a blood relatives.

[Undead Han]

I wonder what happens to non-mage children who are sired by Tevinter magisters. Surely this must happen, as even Malcolm Hawke and Leandra Amell give birth to at one, and possibly two, children who don't have the ability to summon or command magic. And this is despite Malcolm being a mage himself and the Amell line producing numerous mages. Malcolm Hawke was also hoping that none of his children would be mages, because he didn't want them to have the same troubles he did as an apostate. For him to have that hope, presumably it would have been possible to not have any mage children with Leandra.

 

So I would think that a pairing of two Tevinter Magisters wouldn't necessarily be guaranteed to produce a mage child, only that the pairing would have a much higher likelihood of it than two parents who weren't mages or who had no recorded mages in their family line.

 

If Tevinter magisters have no mage children..what then? Are those children simply cast aside as defects? Or are they raised spoiled and pampered in the noble household, and going on to serve the Imperium in a non-mage role? Since Tevinter is loosely based on Byzantium, and the Roman Empire before it, perhaps something like Rome's Equites? Ignoring for a moment the moral implications of casting your children aside, it would seem much more efficient to raise non-mage children to adulthood, and have them take their place as administrators and civil servants, or as military officers. You'd then have a lot of people without magical abilities who were nevertheless loyal to the magocracy in critical roles in government and the military, thanks to blood ties to the magisters.

[X Equestris]

I wonder what happens to non-mage children who are sired by Tevinter magisters. Surely this must happen, as even Malcolm Hawke and Leandra Amell give birth to at one, and possibly two, children who don't have the ability to summon or command magic. And this is despite Malcolm being a mage himself and the Amell line producing numerous mages. Malcolm Hawke was also hoping that none of his children would be mages, because he didn't want them to have the same troubles he did as an apostate. For him to have that hope, presumably it would have been possible to not have any mage children with Leandra.
 
So I would think that a pairing of two Tevinter Magisters wouldn't necessarily be guaranteed to produce a mage child, only that the pairing would have a much higher likelihood of it than two parents who weren't mages or who had no recorded mages in their family line.
 

If Tevinter magisters have no mage children..what then? Are those children simply cast aside as defects? Or are they raised spoiled and pampered in the noble household, and going on to serve the Imperium in a non-mage role? Since Tevinter is loosely based on Byzantium, and the Roman Empire before it, perhaps something like Rome's Equites? Ignoring for a moment the moral implications of casting your children aside, it would seem much more efficient to raise non-mage children to adulthood, and have them take their place as administrators and civil servants, or as military officers. You'd then have a lot of people without magical abilities who were nevertheless loyal to the magocracy in critical roles in government and the military, thanks to blood ties to the magisters.

I imagine they'd become Soporati, the class of non-mages. No point in wasting a perfectly good citizen.

[Gervaise]

Thank you Han Shot First, that was really the point of my post.   We hear a lot about Tevinter being ruled by mages.  We hear about what it is like to be a commoner or a slave but never what happens to non-mage children born into a noble family.   Now it seems that Tevinter is so bound up with magic that even the commoners see the rule of mages as only natural.   Clearly a non-mage child is not going to be a threat to the status quo like a mage child might be viewed elsewhere if left outside the Circle but with the emphasis on "perfection" and perfection being someone with magical ability, what happens to those who are not perfect?    It would make sense that they just fill more mundane positions in government and basic troops in the army but it would be helpful to have confirmation of this.

[Pierce Miller]

I wonder what happens to non-mage children who are sired by Tevinter magisters. Surely this must happen, as even Malcolm Hawke and Leandra Amell give birth to at one, and possibly two, children who don't have the ability to summon or command magic. And this is despite Malcolm being a mage himself and the Amell line producing numerous mages. Malcolm Hawke was also hoping that none of his children would be mages, because he didn't want them to have the same troubles he did as an apostate. For him to have that hope, presumably it would have been possible to not have any mage children with Leandra.

 

So I would think that a pairing of two Tevinter Magisters wouldn't necessarily be guaranteed to produce a mage child, only that the pairing would have a much higher likelihood of it than two parents who weren't mages or who had no recorded mages in their family line.

 

If Tevinter magisters have no mage children..what then? Are those children simply cast aside as defects? Or are they raised spoiled and pampered in the noble household, and going on to serve the Imperium in a non-mage role? Since Tevinter is loosely based on Byzantium, and the Roman Empire before it, perhaps something like Rome's Equites? Ignoring for a moment the moral implications of casting your children aside, it would seem much more efficient to raise non-mage children to adulthood, and have them take their place as administrators and civil servants, or as military officers. You'd then have a lot of people without magical abilities who were nevertheless loyal to the magocracy in critical roles in government and the military, thanks to blood ties to the magisters.

I get the feeling they'd be used as breeding stock because despite them not having magic they still have the potential to create mage children.

[ElitePinecone]

Really interesting discussion in this thread!

 

I think most of the points have already come up, but just to add my thoughts:

 

1. I think magic is inherited, but not necessarily guaranteed even if both parents are mages. The wiki says Tevinter keeps genealogies of magic users, which suggests that magic potential can be boosted over generations by selective breeding, so to speak. That would be a factor in the elite families' obsession with arranging marriages for their children - beyond the usual political alliances that such marriages signify in the rest of Thedas, the correct pairing of children could result in even more powerful magic users becoming part of the family.

 

2. Tevinter doesn't seem to have any non-mage aristocrats. I don't know what would happen if an Altus family  gave birth to a non-magic user. As some people suggested, though, I think wealth and status would grant someone a degree of influence in the Imperium even if they weren't a magic user themselves, and they might be shipped off to Orlais or to serve in the administration.

 

(What we don't know, however, is whether magic runs so strongly in the old Tevinter bloodlines that mage children are guaranteed. This is a question we'd have to ask David Gaider or one of the writers, I suspect.)

 

3. There's a strong incentive to marry off *all* of your children in Tevinter because power and status are not as fixed as they seem to be in the southern countries. The maintenance of the family's prestige requires as many strong magic users as they have the time and money to raise and train. Obviously, the costs of educating a mage are high enough that every family doesn't try to cheat by having 15 kids, or whatever. If there's even a chance that someone as powerful as Dorian could produce more gifted children, the family probably sees it as good investment in their future status. 

 

4. The obsession with blood purity probably comes from magic being hereditary. In Ferelden or even Orlais, titles might be able to be inherited by adopted or illegitimate heirs because there's the assumption that nobility is partly a product of upbringing and "training" - but in Tevinter, you're nothing without the magic that you can only receive from powerful ancestors. 

[Devtek]

Really interesting discussion in this thread!

I think most of the points have already come up, but just to add my thoughts:

1. I think magic is inherited, but not necessarily guaranteed even if both parents are mages. The wiki says Tevinter keeps genealogies of magic users, which suggests that magic potential can be boosted over generations by selective breeding, so to speak. That would be a factor in the elite families' obsession with arranging marriages for their children - beyond the usual political alliances that such marriages signify in the rest of Thedas, the correct pairing of children could result in even more powerful magic users becoming part of the family.

2. Tevinter doesn't seem to have any non-mage aristocrats. I don't know what would happen if an Altus family gave birth to a non-magic user. As some people suggested, though, I think wealth and status would grant someone a degree of influence in the Imperium even if they weren't a magic user themselves, and they might be shipped off to Orlais or to serve in the administration.

(What we don't know, however, is whether magic runs so strongly in the old Tevinter bloodlines that mage children are guaranteed. This is a question we'd have to ask David Gaider or one of the writers, I suspect.)

3. There's a strong incentive to marry off *all* of your children in Tevinter because power and status are not as fixed as they seem to be in the southern countries. The maintenance of the family's prestige requires as many strong magic users as they have the time and money to raise and train. Obviously, the costs of educating a mage are high enough that every family doesn't try to cheat by having 15 kids, or whatever. If there's even a chance that someone as powerful as Dorian could produce more gifted children, the family probably sees it as good investment in their future status.

4. The obsession with blood purity probably comes from magic being hereditary. In Ferelden or even Orlais, titles might be able to be inherited by adopted or illegitimate heirs because there's the assumption that nobility is partly a product of upbringing and "training" - but in Tevinter, you're nothing without the magic that you can only receive from powerful ancestors.

4. In much the same way that in many earth cultures you could fully adopt anyone to be your heir and it would be as if they were your natural child. I'm thinking specifically of Romans who had a history of it, even emperors. But in medieval Europe bastards were basically persona non Grata. While some noble bastards could become knights (with an appropriate black stripe on their standard) if someone actually cared enough to promote them, it was I believe rare for them to ever hold positions of power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

4. In much the same way that in many earth cultures you could fully adopt anyone to be your heir and it would be as if they were your natural child. I'm thinking specifically of Romans who had a history of it, even emperors. But in medieval Europe bastards were basically persona non Grata. While some noble bastards could become knights (with an appropriate black stripe on their standard) if someone actually cared enough to promote them, it was I believe rare for them to ever hold positions of power.

Not exactly rare, but they would never attain rank within the family. So for instance a bastard would never (or rarely) become the head of the family, even if he was the closest living relative to the deceased head of the house. That being said, bastards were often "expendable" sons and daughters, that could be married off to lesser nobility to solidify alliances, or exchanged as hostages. Or, in the case of sons, they could recieve a small command of troops to guard the countryside.

At the end of the day, the bastard of a noble was still worth much more than a peasant.

[Devtek]

Not exactly rare, but they would never attain rank within the family. So for instance a bastard would never (or rarely) become the head of the family, even if he was the closest living relative to the deceased head of the house. That being said, bastards were often "expendable" sons and daughters, that could be married off to lesser nobility to solidify alliances, or exchanged as hostages. Or, in the case of sons, they could recieve a small command of troops to guard the countryside.

At the end of the day, the bastard of a noble was still worth much more than a peasant.

 

I just meant that it was rarer than say a legitimate child; also meant to compare it to the non-mage children of Magisters who would probably still have influence but never hold the same positions as mage children.  In many cases a horse was worth much more than a peasant too