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[Fast Jimmy]

It'd still be stupid to have all abilities available for one class but only 2/3rds for the others. It'd also turn spellswords into complete sustainable characters again seeing as those are usually the first abilities to be unlocked on a tree.
There's also the matter if resources. Mages use mana to.cast their spells other classes use stamina. It shouldn't be possible to do attacks w/o stamina but Willpower the 2ndary stat to Magic (Str/Con Dex/Cun) only provides mana for mages while providing stamina for other classes. If you make it willpower providing both they'd have to limit the available mana and stamina compared to each for itself which in turn just hinders the pure mage who needs only mana.
Classless just doesn't fit the system Bioware created for DA.

Nor the lore.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It'd still be stupid to have all abilities available for one class but only 2/3rds for the others. It'd also turn spellswords into complete sustainable characters again seeing as those are usually the first abilities to be unlocked on a tree.

There's also the matter if resources. Mages use mana to.cast their spells other classes use stamina. It shouldn't be possible to do attacks w/o stamina but Willpower the 2ndary stat to Magic (Str/Con Dex/Cun) only provides mana for mages while providing stamina for other classes. If you make it willpower providing both they'd have to limit the available mana and stamina compared to each for itself which in turn just hinders the pure mage who needs only mana.

Classless just doesn't fit the system Bioware created for DA.

But they wouldn't all ever really be available to any one character.  Look at the attribute requirements for the melee abilities.  If we keep those, no mage can meet all the Strength and Dexterity requirements of the melee talents without severely gimping themselves as mages.

 

You could do Dragon Age with a fully classless GURPS-style system as long as you balanced the ability requirements.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nor the lore.

In no way does a mage learning melee talents harm the lore.

[Fast Jimmy]

In no way does a mage learning melee talents harm the lore.

No, it doesn't. You are correct.

Having every person who is in your party, though, be a Mage who has mastered the arts of martial combat or subterfuge of a rogue when neither apostates not the Circle focuses on this training seems to stress believability.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, it doesn't. You are correct.

Having every person who is in your party, though, be a Mage who has mastered the arts of martial combat or subterfuge of a rogue when neither apostates not the Circle focuses on this training seems to stress believability.

First of all, that would be the writing failing to accommodate the game's mechanics.

Second, why do we think these mages would be masters of any non-magical pursuit? They would need to sacrifice so much in terms of magical ability in order to do so. Also, if the game were truly classless, thus problem could be avoided by making magical ability an extremely expwmsoce trait, thus ruling out mastery in other areas.

But, perhaps most importantly, why can't a bunch of the people in the world who are perceived as non-mages actually be apostate mages who've just focused on other areas? As the recently released character profile for Solas points out, apostate mages can avoid detection by the Templars as long as they're not "burninating the peasants".

[metatheurgist]

Having every person who is in your party, though, be a Mage who has mastered the arts of martial combat or subterfuge of a rogue when neither apostates not the Circle focuses on this training seems to stress believability.

Considering characters start out at level 1, it seems like mages have a lot of room to develop skills when they leave their cloisters. Who's to say there weren't mages that snuck around the tower stealing sweets (or kisses) and mages that enjoyed the discipline of steel as an mental or physical exercise.

[yullyuk]

in terms to the OP, hell no, that would be a god aweful idea, ive just finished playing through DA2 again and i can quite easily say i dont want specific talent trees again, sure give them one branch for personal development that is pretty inconsequential to the makeup of a party, but i want my characters to have customisability, like, if say im playing a sword and board warrior, but i want cassandra in my party, and i cant change her out to make her a two handed sword user to better fit my party, then im missing out as i want to have cassnadra there for those pivitul moments because im looking to up her approval, instead i would be left with iron bull and black wall (who both look awesome) who again, i might want to make into a different party role to better fit my partys makeup, from everything ive seen and heard  i beleive that all the companions have the majority of the same talents, to enable you to be truly talor your experience to the way you want it rather than what the devs want, strictly speaking. 

[number 1 dragon age fan]

I think what many of you are missing is even we dont have companion specific talent/spell trees there will still be many restriction particularly for warriors and rouges, unless i'm mistaken Bioware are not going to make the specializations in a way that facilitates both weapon and shield and two handed or daggers and archery.

 

So what we're looking at is something like DA:O where most of the specializations consist of  sustained abilities.

 

This annoyed the crap out of me because i'm not the kind if player who activates tons of sustained abilities and then has to spend all my point on willpower because i dont have enough stamina left to actually attack.

 

This is why i feel DA:2'S take on the specializations was far better than dragon age origins because the specs. were tailored to suit that specific companion and that companion only.

 

Another thing is when I play DA:I and if i play as a mage and im a rift mage i wanna be the only rift mage otherwise what is the point in being one in the first place if that role in the party is adequately filled. If bioware go back to the stupid every specialization is open to every party member of that class our companions are gonna fill up every last spec. (since there are 9 specializations and 9 companions)

 

Just think how cool it would be to see some unique spells dorian picked up during his time at Tevinter, or see how blackwell uses skill agaist his foes, or see Solas manipulate the fade to favour our party or defeat foes. The list goes on I honestly cannot understand why anyone wouldn't want unique companion specs. is it clearly not the best option!!

[Schreckstoff]

I think what many of you are missing is even we dont have companion specific talent/spell trees there will still be many restriction particularly for warriors and rouges, unless i'm mistaken Bioware are not going to make the specializations in a way that facilitates both weapon and shield and two handed or daggers and archery.

So what we're looking at is something like DA:O where most of the specializations consist of sustained abilities.

This annoyed the crap out of me because i'm not the kind if player who activates tons of sustained abilities and then has to spend all my point on willpower because i dont have enough stamina left to actually attack.

This is why i feel DA:2'S take on the specializations was far better than dragon age origins because the specs. were tailored to suit that specific companion and that companion only.

Another thing is when I play DA:I and if i play as a mage and im a rift mage i wanna be the only rift mage otherwise what is the point in being one in the first place if that role in the party is adequately filled. If bioware go back to the stupid every specialization is open to every party member of that class our companions are gonna fill up every last spec. (since there are 9 specializations and 9 companions)

Just think how cool it would be to see some unique spells dorian picked up during his time at Tevinter, or see how blackwell uses skill agaist his foes, or see Solas manipulate the fade to favour our party or defeat foes. The list goes on I honestly cannot understand why anyone wouldn't want unique companion specs. is it clearly not the best option!!

Merrill was horrible designed though. Proximity spells for mages are useless if they aren't CC and she had the highest mana per willpower ratio it's almost ridiculous how much mana she has at the end making blood magic rather useless especially as her HP per constitution is rather low.

[Fast Jimmy]

First of all, that would be the writing failing to accommodate the game's mechanics.
Second, why do we think these mages would be masters of any non-magical pursuit? They would need to sacrifice so much in terms of magical ability in order to do so. Also, if the game were truly classless, thus problem could be avoided by making magical ability an extremely expwmsoce trait, thus ruling out mastery in other areas.
But, perhaps most importantly, why can't a bunch of the people in the world who are perceived as non-mages actually be apostate mages who've just focused on other areas? As the recently released character profile for Solas points out, apostate mages can avoid detection by the Templars as long as they're not "burninating the peasants".

I don't inherently disagree with you, but we've seen little to no evidence of this cross-training really happening, while we have seen evidence of Mages actively discouraged from being trained in combat or other activities outside of their studies in the Circle. For all we know, doing more "physical" tasks increases one's vulnerability to demons through reduced focus due to exhaustion, or increases predication towards blood magic, as it implied some blood Mages learn this skill by accident through normal injuries.

Also, mechanically, DA is built on a rigid class structure like many MMO's, so this type of cross pollination to allow for a sub-optimal class doesn't really fit the mold they use to approach encounter design. It assumes you have characters of certain classes that, based on the skills you select, fall into classic MMO roles such as tank, blaster, support, etc. in a type of abstracted Rock, Paper, Scissors match that is more about power building than in game tactics.

[Sylvius the Mad]

So what we're looking at is something like DA:O where most of the specializations consist of sustained abilities.

This annoyed the crap out of me because i'm not the kind if player who activates tons of sustained abilities and then has to spend all my point on willpower because i dont have enough stamina left to actually attack.

In neither game was that a serious problem. Sustains could be activated after usimg the stamina, thus eliminating that issue.

You could even set it up in Tactics. When Stamina <90%, activate Rock Armour.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't inherently disagree with you, but we've seen little to no evidence of this cross-training really happening, while we have seen evidence of Mages actively discouraged from being trained in combat or other activities outside of their studies in the Circle. For all we know, doing more "physical" tasks increases one's vulnerability to demons through reduced focus due to exhaustion, or increases predication towards blood magic, as it implied some blood Mages learn this skill by accident through normal injuries.

Also, mechanically, DA is built on a rigid class structure like many MMO's, so this type of cross pollination to allow for a sub-optimal class doesn't really fit the mold they use to approach encounter design. It assumes you have characters of certain classes that, based on the skills you select, fall into classic MMO roles such as tank, blaster, support, etc. in a type of abstracted Rock, Paper, Scissors match that is more about power building than in game tactics.

But neither game was built like that. In both games, you don't need a tank, and even when you use a tank it didn't need to be a Warrior to be an effective one. Rogues made great tanks. And Mages had enough crowd control abilities that tanks weren't generally necessary.

In DAO, for example, you could scout ahead with a Stealthed Rogue, and then drop a Paralysis Explosion spell combo in the middle of your enemies. Now you have a bunch of paralyzed enemies who can't fight back.

This is a zero risk tactic that requires no Warriors. How is DA's design rigid again?

In DA2, retreating to a choke point with a Force Mage was equally effective.

[Fast Jimmy]

But neither game was built like that. In both games, you don't need a tank, and even when you use a tank it didn't need to be a Warrior to be an effective one. Rogues made great tanks. And Mages had enough crowd control abilities that tanks weren't generally necessary.
In DAO, for example, you could scout ahead with a Stealthed Rogue, and then drop a Paralysis Explosion spell combo in the middle of your enemies. Now you have a bunch of paralyzed enemies who can't fight back.

Crowd control roles usually come in two variants - Tanks or Controllers. The above examples are both Controllers.

A tank doesn't have to be a fighter. A controller doesn't have to be a Mage. But the game does assume you have someone to fill some of these roles in some fashion, otherwise you will likely lose the encounter.

This is a zero risk tactic that requires no Warriors. How is DA's design rigid again?
In DA2, retreating to a choke point with a Force Mage was equally effective.

I said DA's class system was rigid. Which it undeniably is. You give some examples of creative unit and power placement, but it is largely determined by you finding the right class and skill set to perform these moves. Thee is no way for a rogue to behave like a Force Mage, or a fighter to use a Paralysis Explosion.

This isn't D&D, where upon leveling up, a Mage can choose from any mix of spells or skills they either want or encounter. The skills and spells avaiaable to you are highly dependent on your class, leading you down pre-determined builds, with optimal and sub-optimal possibilities, but all of which show SOME level of functionality. You'd have to work pretty hard to create a broken character. Yet in a game like Arcanum, it's actually somewhat difficult for a new player to NOT create a character that many people can't have survive past the first intro town.

The DA series puts up big guard rails that deter failure. Having a multi-class character that does things worse than other classes at the expense of ignoring their prime strengths is not something the team would let you do.

[Schreckstoff]

Crowd control roles usually come in two variants - Tanks or Controllers. The above examples are both Controllers.

A tank doesn't have to be a fighter. A controller doesn't have to be a Mage. But the game does assume you have someone to fill some of these roles in some fashion, otherwise you will likely lose the encounter.

 

A ranged tank would be a kiter.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The DA series puts up big guard rails that deter failure. Having a multi-class character that does things worse than other classes at the expense of ignoring their prime strengths is not something the team would let you do.

And I object. I would much prefer to have greater freedom in the design of my characters.

Just because the developers don't think a specific combination of abilities will be useful is no reason to prohibit that combination. I might find a way to make it useful, and I might even have a different definition of useful.

Allan Schumacher has said that the first 24 hours of release sees more total gameplay hours than all the QA they did prior to release. It shouldn't even be surprising that we find things that don't occur to them.

And they absolutely shouldn't be trying to get us to play in a specific way.

[Schreckstoff]

And I object. I would much prefer to have greater freedom in the design of my characters.

Just because the developers don't think a specific combination of abilities will be useful is no reason to prohibit that combination. I might find a way to make it useful, and I might even have a different definition of useful.

Allan Schumacher has said that the first 24 hours of release sees more total gameplay hours than all the QA they did prior to release. It shouldn't even be surprising that we find things that don't occur to them.

And they absolutely shouldn't be trying to get us to play in a specific way.

 

The developer can absolutely forbid what they don't want players to do, and make you play their game in a specific way DA is a RPG not a sandbox game. If all abilities are unlocked for everyone the game will be completely unbalanced as everyone can just slap on all sustained and kill everything with auto attack. In DA2 the classes had different animations making many through mods unlocked abilities either had no CD, no costs, made them ranged or did nothing at all. They'd have to balance the game for those who want to multiclass as well as those who want to build their class traditionally which would only end up sabotaging both ways of playing.

[Fast Jimmy]

And I object. I would much prefer to have greater freedom in the design of my characters.
Just because the developers don't think a specific combination of abilities will be useful is no reason to prohibit that combination. I might find a way to make it useful, and I might even have a different definition of useful.
Allan Schumacher has said that the first 24 hours of release sees more total gameplay hours than all the QA they did prior to release. It shouldn't even be surprising that we find things that don't occur to them.
And they absolutely shouldn't be trying to get us to play in a specific way.

I don't disagree... I'm just saying that they haven't been anywhere close to giving us this before. It would be nice, but I just don't think it is in their vision for the series. The fact that we have class-specific Exploration skills that further cement the divide between the roles of classes is a little proof that this continues to be the case.

[Sylvius the Mad]

They'd have to balance the game for those who want to multiclass as well as those who want to build their class traditionally which would only end up sabotaging both ways of playing.

No, you're still trying to control gameplay outcomes.

If I build a suboptimal character, the game should be hard. I don't want the game balanced for that.

What developers should recognise is that all games are sandbox games. Sandbox isn't a style of game; it's a style of play, and it can happen in any game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't disagree... I'm just saying that they haven't been anywhere close to giving us this before. It would be nice, but I just don't think it is in their vision for the series. The fact that we have class-specific Exploration skills that further cement the divide between the roles of classes is a little proof that this continues to be the case.

They were closer in DAO than they were in DA2. I'm just nudging them back in that direction.

[Fast Jimmy]

They were closer in DAO than they were in DA2. I'm just nudging them back in that direction.

Well, I'm holding out hope that I can make a rogue who is primarily strong in non-combat roles, while having a Mage that is powerful on the battlefield, but less so in utility uses if magic. And so on. That is a decent compromise, in my book.


But, then again, they may just make it so every character is an uber-mensch, capable of the highest levels of combat AND able to tackle all non-combat skills as well. Which, to me, begins to defeat the point.

[Schreckstoff]

No, you're still trying to control gameplay outcomes.

If I build a suboptimal character, the game should be hard. I don't want the game balanced for that.

What developers should recognise is that all games are sandbox games. Sandbox isn't a style of game; it's a style of play, and it can happen in any game.

 

I want every class to be able to stand on its own which is not possible in a multiclass setting. Kingdoms of amalur had a multiclass setup which let you progress further into one class tree if you solely invested points into it than when you put points into two or three. The problem was that every class by itself was massively inferior to hybrids and even more so to the jack of all trades.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I want every class to be able to stand on its own which is not possible in a multiclass setting.Kingdoms of amalur had a multiclass setup which let you progress further into one class tree if you solely invested points into it than when you put points into two or three. The problem was that every class by itself was massively inferior to hybrids and even more so to the jack of all trades.

Amalur's system would have been great if there had been actual reasons to choose other paths. During its development, I argued even that advancing along the same path should have drawbacks (so, for example, the version of a specific hybrid that was best at a specific thing shouldn't always be the highest one).

The class system itself is an abstraction, and one that doesn't need to be preserved.

[Fast Jimmy]

Amalur's system would have been great if there had been actual reasons to choose other paths. During its development, I argued even that advancing along the same path should have drawbacks (so, for example, the version of a specific hybrid that was best at a specific thing shouldn't always be the highest one).
The class system itself is an abstraction, and one that doesn't need to be preserved.

In the world of Thedas, one does at least need to differentiate between magic user and mundane, given that there is zero ability for a mundane to use magic, not to mention the lore issues that arise, such as prejudice, susceptibility to demons and the overall approach of the world to Mages from both a historical and religious perspective.

Now... the difference between a warrior and a rogue? That is an abstraction, pure and simple. Which is how DA:O played, with lots of overlap between the two classes.

[number 1 dragon age fan]

So guys if you read this i think it gives us a small hint that there will be some level of individuality to the companion's specs. 

[DA]: Does that extensive knowledge aid him in combat?

[PW]: On the battlefield, Solas’s expertise with the Fade lets him manipulate magic in ways that would never occur to most mages.

 

 

http://www.dragonage...s=1404390403956

[Schreckstoff]

So guys if you read this i think it gives us a small hint that there will be some level of individuality to the companion's specs. 

[DA]: Does that extensive knowledge aid him in combat?

[PW]: On the battlefield, Solas’s expertise with the Fade lets him manipulate magic in ways that would never occur to most mages.

 

 

http://www.dragonage...s=1404390403956

 

That just implies Solas will be Rift Mage