311 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

I'm gonna come right out and say it.

 

Much like Sten and Morrigan, a lot of the Wynne hate stemmed from the fact that she didn't bow down and kiss the Warden's toes and agree with every decision he made -- she dared to have her own opinions, speaking up and criticizing the Warden whenever he did something that she had an issue with.

 

A lot of players, being immersed as the big hero of the story, want to be right all the time, and it's jarring for them to encounter an NPC who challenges that mindset.

 

Oh, that's a good one. Funny thing is, Aveline never for one moment kissed the ground I walked, and I still happened to have the utmost respect for her. This isn't about the companions bowing down to my every decision. It's about them being impertinent and narrow minded with their views. The companions I respected the most were those that at least took the time of the day to think about how the world is not an simple place, and their opinion are not final.

[Dabrikishaw]

There's no backlash against morally white, upstanding people. It's really more about a perceived naive and moral myopia.

[In Exile]

I'm gonna come right out and say it.

 

Much like Sten and Morrigan, a lot of the Wynne hate stemmed from the fact that she didn't bow down and kiss the Warden's toes and agree with every decision he made -- she dared to have her own opinions, speaking up and criticizing the Warden whenever he did something that she had an issue with.

 

A lot of players, being immersed as the big hero of the story, want to be right all the time, and it's jarring for them to encounter an NPC who challenges that mindset.

 

But Wynne didn't really criticize you - she told you how she felt you were obligated to live your life. She spent a lot of time, in particular, telling you the sort of values that you were supposed to have as a Grey Warden. Now, I might accept that coming from Duncan - he earned that, through years of sacrifice. 

 

Except Wynne isn't a GW. She doesn't know what it takes to become one or live as one. So her comments about ultimate sacrifice or not being in a relationship ring really hollow as a result. 

[Reznore57]

But Wynne didn't really criticize you - she told you how she felt you were obligated to live your life. She spent a lot of time, in particular, telling you the sort of values that you were supposed to have as a Grey Warden. Now, I might accept that coming from Duncan - he earned that, through years of sacrifice. 

 

Except Wynne isn't a GW. She doesn't know what it takes to become one or live as one. So her comments about ultimate sacrifice or not being in a relationship ring really hollow as a result. 

 

Thing is , circle mages sacrifice their life for the good of others.

Wynne's child was taken away from her , and still she tried to make the circles a better place.

 

So I feel like , she can talk about sacrifice .She spend her whole life in a tower , afterall.Wardens have a shorter life but they have way more freedom.

And she did die trying to protect children from some demons.

[BlueMagitek]

But Wynne didn't really criticize you - she told you how she felt you were obligated to live your life. She spent a lot of time, in particular, telling you the sort of values that you were supposed to have as a Grey Warden. Now, I might accept that coming from Duncan - he earned that, through years of sacrifice. 

 

Except Wynne isn't a GW. She doesn't know what it takes to become one or live as one. So her comments about ultimate sacrifice or not being in a relationship ring really hollow as a result. 

 

She does provide excellent insight on the positive look at what Wardens are supposed to be, rather than the current view of "Ugh, Wardens begging for recruits again!?". 

 

And she does have a very good point, because a number of people took the DR, unwilling to give up their life or the life of their friend/enemy/friendemy to prevent the return of the beast.

[TheKomandorShepard]

She does provide excellent insight on the positive look at what Wardens are supposed to be, rather than the current view of "Ugh, Wardens begging for recruits again!?". 

 

And she does have a very good point, because a number of people took the DR, unwilling to give up their life or the life of their friend/enemy/friendemy to prevent the return of the beast.

I love peoples who tell other that they should sacrifice themelves for what those peoples belive   

[Xilizhra]

She does provide excellent insight on the positive look at what Wardens are supposed to be, rather than the current view of "Ugh, Wardens begging for recruits again!?". 

 

And she does have a very good point, because a number of people took the DR, unwilling to give up their life or the life of their friend/enemy/friendemy to prevent the return of the beast.

Hey, some of us also thought the DR was a good enough idea to do even without the extra impetus of survival.

[Maria Caliban]

Hey, some of us also thought the DR was a good enough idea to do even without the extra impetus of survival.

The same.

I had Loghian. I'd have no problem sending him to his death. I recruited him with the intent of killing him later, where Anora and the Landsmeet wouldn't be watching.

[DaySeeker]

I could respect Wynne, her abilities, her compassion, her drive to do better, but that lady was preachy.  I didn't hate her or want her dead, but I wouldn't have minded having the chance to walk away from her wile she was talking, or gently told her that she was doing that thing again.  She was hardly perfect, and she would tell you that.  Alistair was just naive and wanted the world on his terms; he wanted to criticize it and laugh at it and have someone else do something about it.  Both of them are credible and interesting characters and neither good be be described as just a "goody two shoes" without missing the rest of their complexity.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wynne has proven several times over she is willing to die to save other people.  I think that gives her more than enough right to talk about self-sacrifice.  And frankly anybody who thinks stopping the Blight *isn't* the most important thing - including people being willing to self-sacrifice and putting your own petty squabbles/relationships/etc. on a back burner is nuts. 

I don't think so im nuts? Why i should to sacrifice myself to others? Do you think that others peoples are worth it? because i don't... simple because you belive in something doesn't mean that others should sacrifice themselves because you belive in it.

[SgtSteel91]

Reminder that Wyrnn backpedals on "don't have a relationship with Alistair/Zevrah/Leilana/Morrigan it's getting in the way of your Warden duties."

[TheKomandorShepard]

Um, if nobody stops the Blight, everybody will either be dead or turned into Dark spawn.  Even Flemeth recognizes this. This isn't just about sacrifice.  It's about survival - yours and others. And *everybody's* well-being is dependent on the continuation of an organized, safe, and productive social system.  Those can only work when people are willing to suppress some of their animal reactions of "me! me! me!"  This is basic ethics, which is what Wynne was talking about.  It's also a basic moral law that all successful human civilizations have recognized.  So yes, anybody standing outside of that is very much going the way of nihilism and disorder.  And yes, people are worth saving, because you like every other human being are utterly dependent on them for your future.   

It is said 1000 times that you aren't only grey warden even flemeth says you that you can leave if you wan't eventually more grey wardens will come...

Not rly it would take centuries for blight to destroy humans if they could do that after all.Pretty much your character would be dead by that time even without taint in their veins.As i said i don't care about Thedas especially that it is very corrupted and wynne has naive view of world that i don't need follow her blind faith.Pretty much that you belive in mages , templars , chantry doesn't mean that i should sacrifice for them or anyone else that you belive.  

 

Besides that wynne have little to talk in that topic if blight is so important and she is so responsible she wouldn't simple leave you if she simple dislike you which makes her nothing but preachy and hypocritical hell even morrigan if hate you can put aside it to reach her goal and stay with you same for manchild alistair.

[BlueMagitek]

I love peoples who tell other that they should sacrifice themelves for what those peoples belive   

Hey, if you wanted to live, let Alistair or Loghain take the blow.  Better to live without the shame of the DR on your hands.

 

 

Hey, some of us also thought the DR was a good enough idea to do even without the extra impetus of survival.

 

From a non metagaming perspective, given that I don't remember very many instances of the PC being able to express support for Tevinter (outside of letting them have the elves in exchange for blood magic constitution), the Old Gods, or (past the beginning of the game) not being a Grey Warden, how do you justify, in character, completely failing at the one job that you possess?

[Xilizhra]

From a non metagaming perspective, given that I don't remember very many instances of the PC being able to express support for Tevinter (outside of letting them have the elves in exchange for blood magic constitution), the Old Gods, or (past the beginning of the game) not being a Grey Warden, how do you justify, in character, completely failing at the one job that you possess?

My job is to stop the Blight. Which I did. And if the Maker is real and sent the darkspawn down to earth, then he's a far worse villain than Tevinter or the Old Gods could ever be, and an Old God might be a necessary ally in the future. And if Morrigan was in on the archdemon's goal of utter destruction of the world, then just killing me covertly would have done the job a lot more smoothly; she's still opposed to the darkspawn, and I don't see a concrete reason to shut her down. Finally, after having to kill Tamlen, if I had any opportunity to remove the taint from anyone, even an Old God, I would have to take it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hey, if you wanted to live, let Alistair or Loghain take the blow.  Better to live without the shame of the DR on your hands.

 

 

 

From a non metagaming perspective, given that I don't remember very many instances of the PC being able to express support for Tevinter (outside of letting them have the elves in exchange for blood magic constitution), the Old Gods, or (past the beginning of the game) not being a Grey Warden, how do you justify, in character, completely failing at the one job that you possess?

 

technically yep but in first pt (unless you use guide) as well from in-universe character perspective you can't know if al or lo will survive battle even morrigan use that as argument before ritual.

 

Well you don't have to like wardens , you can refuse being one and in the end leave only requirement is to stop blight why and how you do that is up to you.    
 

[TK514]

I took Wynne's comments as a sign that she was something of a romantic, in the "heroes saving the day" fashion. She was regaling you with stories she loved about heroic Grey Wardens inspiring armies and standing against the implacable foe. In a sense, she was telling you how powerful a symbol one could be as a Grey Warden, and what people idealized them as. And given that Alistair was just this side of useless as far as an education about being a Warden goes, at least Wynne was trying.

[BlueMagitek]

My job is to stop the Blight. Which I did. And if the Maker is real and sent the darkspawn down to earth, then he's a far worse villain than Tevinter or the Old Gods could ever be, and an Old God might be a necessary ally in the future. And if Morrigan was in on the archdemon's goal of utter destruction of the world, then just killing me covertly would have done the job a lot more smoothly; she's still opposed to the darkspawn, and I don't see a concrete reason to shut her down. Finally, after having to kill Tamlen, if I had any opportunity to remove the taint from anyone, even an Old God, I would have to take it.

 

Your job is to stop the Blight by killing the archdemon.  Can't express that the Maker is the devil incarnate in game.  Well, now the Archdemon has a body that has the capability of magic, and being the soul of an Old God probably provides quite the power boost or immunity to demons.  Yes, you had the ability to remove the taint from yourself (or another Warden) and from the Archdemon.  Forever.  Morrigan's child can still be tainted, your goal is unfulfilled.

 

technically yep but in first pt (unless you use guide) as well from in-universe character perspective you can't know if al or lo will survive battle even morrigan use that as argument before ritual.

 

Well you don't have to like wardens , you can refuse being one and in the end leave only requirement is to stop blight why and how you do that is up to you.    
 

 

Then you fall on the blade yourself.  It's fairly simple.

 

You don't have to like the Wardens.  But you have one job!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yea, and if everybody has this attitude, everybody will die.  You are essentially being a morality freeloader - you are counting on somebody else to make the moral decisions that need to be made for everybody's wellbeing that you won't make. 

What is moral to you doesn't have to be moral for another... as i said if someone want to be self-righteous it his choice if you want die for humanity die then but rly you shouldn't preach how others should do that for country , humans or whatever because you belive that it is worth it...

 

Well i simple see those who win and those who lose if someone want sacrifice their life for mine well your choice pal be naive im fine with it.Same for guy that will end on bad side of the deal with me and i will gain more. This is my view on that (spoiler from gta V)

 

Then you fall on the blade yourself.  It's fairly simple.

 

You don't have to like the Wardens.  But you have one job!

Well or you can be smart and plan ahead that they can die and take ritual and make your chances bigger.

 

Well my job is thing i decide same with everyone else main goal of the game is stop the blight and you always do even with DR you don't have to care what will be later with others. 

 

As i said you don't have to be warden you have stop the blight not work for the wardens.

[SgtSteel91]

 

From a non metagaming perspective, given that I don't remember very many instances of the PC being able to express support for Tevinter (outside of letting them have the elves in exchange for blood magic constitution), the Old Gods, or (past the beginning of the game) not being a Grey Warden, how do you justify, in character, completely failing at the one job that you possess?

 

Well, in my Human Noble Warden's perspective, it stops the Blight (I mean the Archdemon is dead, just that its soul is not destroyed), gives the Old God a chance at a new life, trusts Morrigan that this plan of hers does not involve the destruction of the world, and allows him to rebuild the shattered life he once had by having a family with Morrigan. No, he doesn't care that Morrigan asked him to not follow her, he does and he eventually reunites with her and his son.

 

Also he didn't really care for the Warden's, he agreed to join because Duncan wasn't going to let him leave until he agree and he thought being a Grey Warden would make him strong enough to avenge his family.