311 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Well, in my Human Noble Warden's perspective, it stops the Blight, gives the Old God a chance at a new life, and allows him to rebuild the shattered life he once had by having a family with Morrigan. No, he doesn't care that Morrigan asked him to not follow her, he does and he eventually reunites with her and his son.

 

Your Human Noble doesn't have any opportunity to "root for" the Old Gods.  Outside of the conversation with Morrigan where she offers it up as a reason, when do you have any say over it?  You can not be into Andrastianism, sure, but supporting the Old Gods?  Nope.

 

Well, that's insidious and creepy, but that would be a reason to do it, I suppose.

 

As i said you don't have to be warden you have stop the blight not work for the wardens.

You do have to be a Warden.  There's no escaping it; hence the lack of "Waaah, I don't want to be a Warden" options that are available early game in the late game.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

You do have to be a Warden.  There's no escaping it; hence the lack of "Waaah, I don't want to be a Warden" options that are available early game in the late game.

Not at all... you can even leave them in the end... you can tell alistair that you don't care about wardens or being one if you get - 100 approval with him or tell wynne it doesn't mean anything to you.As i said stoping the blight doesn't make you warden as it doesn't for example leliana.

 

And this isn't matter "waaah i don't want to be a warden" it is matter what you choose as i said game forces you only into stoping the blight as it is plot of the game pretty much like in BG 2 where you had to go after big bad but pick why you do that.

[BlueMagitek]

Not at all... you can even leave them in the end... you can tell alistair that you don't care about wardens or being one if you get - 100 approval with him or tell wynne it doesn't mean anything to you.As i said stoping the blight doesn't make you warden as it doesn't for example leliana. 

 

Ah, I've never gotten down so far.  Good to know. 

[Xilizhra]

Your job is to stop the Blight by killing the archdemon.  Can't express that the Maker is the devil incarnate in game.  Well, now the Archdemon has a body that has the capability of magic, and being the soul of an Old God probably provides quite the power boost or immunity to demons.  Yes, you had the ability to remove the taint from yourself (or another Warden) and from the Archdemon.  Forever.  Morrigan's child can still be tainted, your goal is unfulfilled.

The taint doesn't spread to the child, there's no need to ever say you like the Maker, the existence of an alternative to killing the archdemon wasn't known until now, and I trust Morrigan when her approval is maxed.

[SgtSteel91]

Your Human Noble doesn't have any opportunity to "root for" the Old Gods.  Outside of the conversation with Morrigan where she offers it up as a reason, when do you have any say over it?  You can not be into Andrastianism, sure, but supporting the Old Gods?  Nope.

 

Well, that's insidious and creepy, but that would be a reason to do it, I suppose.

 

No but through his actions show that he believes in mercy and giving someone who once did bad things a second chance to do good, like sparing Loghain.

 

I probably worded it poorly, I thought of it as the Warden finding something to fight and live for when tragedy left him with nothing. And Morrigan clearly shows that she really didn't want to leave him ( that magic he got from her says she's feeling regret and sorrow as well as the end of Witch Hunt ).

[BlueMagitek]

The taint doesn't spread to the child, there's no need to ever say you like the Maker, the existence of an alternative to killing the archdemon wasn't known until now, and I trust Morrigan when her approval is maxed.

No, but there are still darkspawn and no evidence that the PC has access to suggesting that it won't stop emitting a darkspawn call at all times.  The Warden isn't aware of approval.  That's a game mechanic, not something he has access to.

 

 

No but through his actions show that he believes in mercy and giving someone who once did bad things a second chance to do good, like sparing Loghain.

 

I probably worded it poorly, I thought of it as the Warden finding something to fight and live for when tragedy left him with nothing. 

You're giving someone like that to Morrigan, who had you kill her mother because of something she claims in a book you can't read.  Same person who said "yes, we should abandon Redcliffe to the undead so we'll have to fight through more undead later.  Oh, also, we should annul the Circle because they deserve it for not dying for freedom".   Truly someone like that will raise a paragon of morality.

 

Well, you pretty much said you're going to impregnate a woman because you want a family (she doesn't want you, just the god child) and then chase her across the country to be with her when she says she wants nothing to do with you.  That's more creepy than anything.

[Xilizhra]

No, but there are still darkspawn and no evidence that the PC has access to suggesting that it won't stop emitting a darkspawn call at all times.  The Warden isn't aware of approval.  That's a game mechanic, not something he has access to.

I'm quite aware that she sees my Warden as a true friend and sister, and I don't believe that she would betray me on this matter.

[BlueMagitek]

I'm quite aware that she sees my Warden as a true friend and sister, and I don't believe that she would betray me on this matter.

 

Yes, the consummate liar who openly brags about her ability to manipulate people tells you that you're an important person and that she'd never betray you.

[Zjarcal]

The Warden isn't aware of approval.  That's a game mechanic, not something he has access to.

 

Warden would still notice characters becoming much more friendly, respectful, and open, so it's a valid point.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, the consummate liar who openly brags about her ability to manipulate people tells you that you're an important person and that she'd never betray you.

She never says that she's a master manipulator, only that many men are easily duped. When trying to persuade you to do various things, she tends to be on the blunt and clumsy side.

[In Exile]

Not at all... you can even leave them in the end... you can tell alistair that you don't care about wardens or being one if you get - 100 approval with him or tell wynne it doesn't mean anything to you.As i said stoping the blight doesn't make you warden as it doesn't for example leliana.

 

You can't tell Wynne it doesn't mean anything. You can ask her why it should mean anything. Those two things are not analogous. One is a dismissal. The other, at best, is an evasive dodge if not a purely philosophical question. 

[In Exile]

You're giving someone like that to Morrigan, who had you kill her mother because of something she claims in a book you can't read.  Same person who said "yes, we should abandon Redcliffe to the undead so we'll have to fight through more undead later.  Oh, also, we should annul the Circle because they deserve it for not dying for freedom".   Truly someone like that will raise a paragon of morality.

 

Well, you pretty much said you're going to impregnate a woman because you want a family (she doesn't want you, just the god child) and then chase her across the country to be with her when she says she wants nothing to do with you.  That's more creepy than anything.

 

For the DR to work, you have to (almost) single-handedly kill the archdemon. At the very least, you have to pull it off with only 2 Wardens. As a worse case scenario, let's say the DR creates... I don't know, an insane deity dedicated to the eradication of all life commanding an endless army that poisons the land through its very existence - some sort of "blight on the land", if you will. 

 

Well, in that case you've already killed one old god. You're basically using its skull as a chamber pot. What exactly is a second archdemon going to do for you? It's just another skull to add to the chamber pot collection.

 

There is literally no threat that Morrigan could pose with the DR that you have not already overcome, except this time around you are alive long enough to overcome it. You might disagree that keeping the archdemon around is a good idea on either philosophical or moral grounds, but the idea that the DR creates something more dangerous is silly. 

[Sleekshinobi]

Dragon Age isn't the only series that's guilty (Look up Game of Thrones regarding the Starks), but I've noticed something of a rising backlash against characters who'd be described as "good guys".

 

Most notably Wynne and Alistair as far as Dragon Age is concerned and I find this curious. Is it because "good guys" aren't as interesting as grey or ambiguous characters? Is it because they're predictable? Or are fantasy fanbases just becoming more cynical?

 

IMO I actually like "good guys" in fiction. I admire characters that do right simply because its right. Especially when the rest of the characters take the more morally gray route.

[BlueMagitek]

Warden would still notice characters becoming much more friendly, respectful, and open, so it's a valid point.

Morrigan's case, perhaps because of a bug, is quite different, given that she'll teach her the dark secrets of shape shifting from 0-30, but afterwards will not.  I think that is quite the opposite of becoming more open.

 

 

She never says that she's a master manipulator, only that many men are easily duped. When trying to persuade you to do various things, she tends to be on the blunt and clumsy side.

 

Her stories about getting the Chasind arrested and stealing the Mirror, not to mention her various seductions, imply that she is used to doing such things. But yes, her persuasions tend to be "Do this terrible action for an evil, vile reason".

[SgtSteel91]

Yes, the consummate liar who openly brags about her ability to manipulate people tells you that you're an important person and that she'd never betray you.

 

Does she actually brag about being so manipulative? To me, she mostly talked about being the strongest to survive, and you could argue that her mindset was the result of living in the woods with no one but Flemeth, who made Morrigan that way so she could be easily possessed by Flemeth's ritual. IMO, Befriending/romancing her is an attempt to break years of Flemeth's programming to turn her into a more caring person.

[Xilizhra]

Morrigan's case, perhaps because of a bug, is quite different, given that she'll teach her the dark secrets of shape shifting from 0-30, but afterwards will not.  I think that is quite the opposite of becoming more open.

It's a bug.

 

 

Her stories about getting the Chasind arrested and stealing the Mirror, not to mention her various seductions, imply that she is used to doing such things. But yes, her persuasions tend to be "Do this terrible action for an evil, vile reason".

The mirror didn't require manipulation and the Chasind sort of boned himself. In any case, I still trust her not to harm the fundamental interests of the Grey Wardens.

[BlueMagitek]

For the DR to work, you have to (almost) single-handedly kill the archdemon. At the very least, you have to pull it off with only 2 Wardens. As a worse case scenario, let's say the DR creates... I don't know, an insane deity dedicated to the eradication of all life commanding an endless army that poisons the land through its very existence - some sort of "blight on the land", if you will. 

 

Well, in that case you've already killed one old god. You're basically using its skull as a chamber pot. What exactly is a second archdemon going to do for you? It's just another skull to add to the chamber pot collection.

 

There is literally no threat that Morrigan could pose with the DR that you have not already overcome, except this time around you are alive long enough to overcome it. You might disagree that keeping the archdemon around is a good idea on either philosophical or moral grounds, but the idea that the DR creates something more dangerous is silly. 

 

I'm almost completely certain that your character has a discussion with Alistair stating that you might not have more than 30 years.  You aren't going to be in the prime of your life anymore, if you're alive at all.  The idea of "it's fine that I do this terrible thing because I'll deal with the circumstances" is flawed and fails the Warden in the past, given the Summoning Quest where you get some random merchant killed because you decided to summon spirits in a demon infested Circle tower without supervision.

 

Also, you're kind of saying "so what if all those people suffer because of me, I'll potentially stop it a second time".

[BlueMagitek]

Does she actually brag about being so manipulative? To me, she mostly talked about being the strongest to survive, and you could argue that her mindset was the result of living in the woods with no one but Flemeth, who made Morrigan that way so she could be easily possessed by Flemeth's ritual. IMO, Befriending/romancing her is an attempt to break years of Flemeth's programming to turn her into a more caring person.

 

I interpreted it as such.  Granted, Morrigan is also terrible at being friendly, so this could be passive conversation for her.

 

You actually don't have evidence of that, only Morrigan's (manipulator of men, as admitted by Xil) word on it.  Frankly, Flemeth's done more for you by saving your life and giving you a powerful mage to assist you than Morrigan has.

 

 

It's a bug.

 

 

The mirror didn't require manipulation and the Chasind sort of boned himself. In any case, I still trust her not to harm the fundamental interests of the Grey Wardens.

 

Oh, so it's a bug when it happens to Morrigan, but when Wynne approves of one elf seduction and hates another suddenly it's a big deal...

 

She doesn't care for the Grey Wardens, you don't really have even her word for not harming the interests of them.  She doesn't even show an interest in ending the blight ala Creepy Old Bloodmage from the DLC.  Avernus?

[Xilizhra]

Oh, so it's a bug when it happens to Morrigan, but when Wynne approves of one elf seduction and hates another suddenly it's a big deal...

That's also a bug.

 

 

She doesn't care for the Grey Wardens, you don't really have even her word for not harming the interests of them.  She doesn't even show an interest in ending the blight ala Creepy Old Bloodmage from the DLC.  Avernus?

I don't expect you to believe it yourself, but what you wanted was an IC reason for doing the Dark Ritual. I have provided one.

[BlueMagitek]

That's also a bug.

 

 

I don't expect you to believe it yourself, but what you wanted was an IC reason for doing the Dark Ritual. I have provided one.

 

I find that to be stretching the character motivation almost as much as saying, "Well, my human noble said there weren't any gods in the Human Noble only opening, so doing the DR basically doesn't matter because it isn't going to get Morrigan anything anyway".

[Xilizhra]

I find that to be stretching the character motivation almost as much as saying, "Well, my human noble said there weren't any gods in the Human Noble only opening, so doing the DR basically doesn't matter because it isn't going to get Morrigan anything anyway".

If there wasn't an IC reason to do it, it wouldn't have been in the game.

[BlueMagitek]

If there wasn't an IC reason to do it, it wouldn't have been in the game.

 

You say that, but there are dialog options like the one in Ostagar available to all elves where you mock the Priestess, when it really should only be available to the Dalish.

[Xilizhra]

You say that, but there are dialog options like the one in Ostagar available to all elves where you mock the Priestess, when it really should only be available to the Dalish.

Firstly, "this option doesn't make sense because here's another option I don't think makes sense" does not strike me as the most sensible argument. Secondly, do you really think that no non-Dalish elf, ever, would be a little irked about the destruction of their previous homeland?

[TheKomandorShepard]

You can't tell Wynne it doesn't mean anything. You can ask her why it should mean anything. Those two things are not analogous. One is a dismissal. The other, at best, is an evasive dodge if not a purely philosophical question. 

Well if i renember it was something along "don't know , does it have to mean something?" pretty much easily can be saw that you don't care.Then you can tell alistair that "being grey warden means nothing to me".Then in the end you can simple leave the wardens.