311 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Firstly, "this option doesn't make sense because here's another option I don't think makes sense" does not strike me as the most sensible argument. Secondly, do you really think that no non-Dalish elf, ever, would be a little irked about the destruction of their previous homeland?

 

A city elf and a Circle mage elf?  Certainly not.  Maybe a village elf.

No, your statement said that there must be an IC reason for an option to be in the game.  That was one I believe did not make sense for two of the three options.

 

 

Well if i renember it was something along "don't know , does it have to mean something?" pretty much easily can be saw that you don't care.Then you can tell alistair that "being grey warden means nothing to me".Then in the end you can simple leave the wardens. 

 

Most of the end options are leaving the Wardens, imo.  Staying as advisor?  Leaving Wardens.  Becoming King/Queen/Consort?  Leaving Wardens.  Teryn?  Leaving Wardens.  Going back to your people?  Leaving Wardens. 

[Xilizhra]

A city elf and a Circle mage elf?  Certainly not.  Maybe a village elf.

No, your statement said that there must be an IC reason for an option to be in the game.  That was one I believe did not make sense for two of the three options.

So why does it not make sense?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Most of the end options are leaving the Wardens, imo.  Staying as advisor?  Leaving Wardens.  Becoming King/Queen/Consort?  Leaving Wardens.  Teryn?  Leaving Wardens.  Going back to your people?  Leaving Wardens. 

Not necessarily all of that options for example you can be king and stay with wardens same for teryn and chancellor (lol).Most notable is when you chose to continue adventure and travel where alistair says something like "wardens rahter can't stop you hm?"

[BlueMagitek]

So why does it not make sense?

 

Well, it could make sense, but if it does, then the argument that the Chantry indoctrinates the mages at the Circle doesn't.  If the Chantry does have that drastic an influence in the Circle, then the mages there would not be against it because they would have been indoctrinated and all be like that poor Keili. 

 

The City Elf is a tad harder to justify, but people and communities in poverty often turn to religion, and the City Elf was, if nothing else, raised Andrastian and being married by a Sister.  I don't recall you being able to complain about the marriage due to religious reasons in the CE origin.  Additionally, the Sister is perhaps the one human there who calls Vaughn out, even if it does prove to be futile.

[Xilizhra]

Well, it could make sense, but if it does, then the argument that the Chantry indoctrinates the mages at the Circle doesn't.  If the Chantry does have that drastic an influence in the Circle, then the mages there would not be against it because they would have been indoctrinated and all be like that poor Keili.

If indoctrination universally took like that, no one would ever leave their home religion, and people have left even extremely strict, cultish ones.

 

 

The City Elf is a tad harder to justify, but people and communities in poverty often turn to religion, and the City Elf was, if nothing else, raised Andrastian and being married by a Sister.  I don't recall you being able to complain about the marriage due to religious reasons in the CE origin.  Additionally, the Sister is perhaps the one human there who calls Vaughn out, even if it does prove to be futile.

The city elf origin was a hatchet job; you weren't even allowed to complain about it on grounds of sexual orientation, or anything aside from generic "I don't want to" (although one can presumably supply any reason they like for why; it isn't as though you're forced to support the Chantry in dialogue). And if there weren't city elves prepared to leave their religions, there would be no Dalish converts.

[godModeAlpha]

If by good guys you were referring to blood mages? I'd say yes there should backlash and then some.

 

Lol, I believe it's the plot twists that can give the impression of a backlash, which I have not really observed in a DA game.

 

Now ME that's a whole different thing.

 

PS: late to the thread as always

[In Exile]

I'm almost completely certain that your character has a discussion with Alistair stating that you might not have more than 30 years.  You aren't going to be in the prime of your life anymore, if you're alive at all.  The idea of "it's fine that I do this terrible thing because I'll deal with the circumstances" is flawed and fails the Warden in the past, given the Summoning Quest where you get some random merchant killed because you decided to summon spirits in a demon infested Circle tower without supervision.

 

Also, you're kind of saying "so what if all those people suffer because of me, I'll potentially stop it a second time".

 

Avernus lived for 300 years. I can easily be around for that amount of time, even if my character is not a Blood Mage. There's no evidence that there's anything "terrible" about the DR, other than the speculation that Morrigan is a bad person that, I dunno, desires the eradication of all life on Thedas. 

 

What I'm saying is "if things turn out badly, I'll stop them, like last time, because I've done something no other living being has every done in the history of Thedas, and that's save hundreds of thousands of lives by stopping a blight before it began". The second greatest Warden hero of all time - Garahel - is basically a scrub next to the Hero of Ferelden. 

[BlueMagitek]

If indoctrination universally took like that, no one would ever leave their home religion, and people have left even extremely strict, cultish ones.

 

 

The city elf origin was a hatchet job; you weren't even allowed to complain about it on grounds of sexual orientation, or anything aside from generic "I don't want to" (although one can presumably supply any reason they like for why; it isn't as though you're forced to support the Chantry in dialogue). And if there weren't city elves prepared to leave their religions, there would be no Dalish converts.

 

We met all of one mage who acted that way.  The rest were all quite sane, had their own opinions on the Chantry, the Circle and the world at large.  Either the Chantry is completely terrible at indoctrination or it isn't going on.

 

The City Elf origin was a saint and is number one origin. 

 

 

Avernus lived for 300 years. I can easily be around for that amount of time, even if my character is not a Blood Mage. There's no evidence that there's anything "terrible" about the DR, other than the speculation that Morrigan is a bad person that, I dunno, desires the eradication of all life on Thedas. 

 

What I'm saying is "if things turn out badly, I'll stop them, like last time, because I've done something no other living being has every done in the history of Thedas, and that's save hundreds of thousands of lives by stopping a blight before it began". The second greatest Warden hero of all time - Garahel - is basically a scrub next to the Hero of Ferelden. 

 

Avernus, the Blood Mage Warden, tied to a demon, lived for 300 years.  Does your Warden really assume that he can achieve any sort of similar longevity?   The DR simply pushes back when the Blight is going to happen.  It doesn't solve the problem of having an Old God running around just waiting to be tainted.

 

You're saying, "I am going to engage in an action, that if it turns out badly, will result in the suffering of up to thousands of people while I, assuming I'm not old and decrepit or insane from taint, am going to deal with, assuming I hear about it where I will be in twenty years or so, assuming my skills and mind haven't deteriorated, and that I'm not immediately hunted down by the Wardens for betraying their trust."

[Xilizhra]

We met all of one mage who acted that way.  The rest were all quite sane, had their own opinions on the Chantry, the Circle and the world at large.  Either the Chantry is completely terrible at indoctrination or it isn't going on.

I think that's because that's where the Chantry gets their Tranquil from, and most of the rest die in the Harrowing.

 

 

The City Elf origin was a saint and is number one origin. 

Good at some things, less good at others.

[BlueMagitek]

I think that's because that's where the Chantry gets their Tranquil from, and most of the rest die in the Harrowing.

 

 

Good at some things, less good at others.

The Tranquil come from mages who choose it and mages who aren't fit for a Harrowing.  You're making an assumption that not only does a very great number of these mages exist, but that they are all vastly incompetent.  Meanwhile, the Loyalist faction of mages make up the second greatest fraternity.

 

And which do you prefer over it?

[Xilizhra]

The Tranquil come from mages who choose it and mages who aren't fit for a Harrowing.  You're making an assumption that not only does a very great number of these mages exist, but that they are all vastly incompetent.  Meanwhile, the Loyalist faction of mages make up the second greatest fraternity.

So by saying that the Loyalists are the second largest fraternity, you're really reinforcing my point about indoctrination (even though I doubt the size comparison is true; I think the Libertarians are more populous). We never met any Loyalists at all in either game, so naturally mages like Keili wouldn't be seen either.

 

 

And which do you prefer over it?

Well, none of them shove gay Wardens under the rug and prevent them from speaking in the way that the city elf origin does, and the male CE origin has that really irritating plot where you play as a man preventing the rape of characters who have virtually no characterization. My personal favorite is the Dalish one, as it has the most unique touches and carries over the most in DA2.

[Dayze]

Wynne and Alistair aren't totally good; Wynne is willing to die to protect the circle but that puts the circle above everybody else and the blight.

 

Wynne walks off in a hoff and leaves the world to die and essentially have their souls become corrupted twisted beacons of the purest evil simply because she can't stand the guy she's working.  Hey Wynne; maybe rat on the guy "after" the world is saved and not just leave it to go to hell ay'?

 

Alistair's even worse; he leaves the wardens, the very last fight and takes off because you won't give into his blood thirsty need to kill a defenseless man.

 

Its debatable if the death sentence is in and of itself moral, even worse when you want it to be enforced on someone you hate or you'll damn the world.

 

Kind of makes all your previous statements of morality and decency for both of them.....kind of bs.

 

Clearly its not decency or morality that is their driving factor.  All they truly care about in the end is themselves.

 

Its interesting to think about; who does more damage.....who has created more hell on this earth?  Bystanders or Crusaders?  Almost everything bad for that matter has been justified under the banner of morality.  Slavery, genocide, war........Ironically enough if nobody was willing to die for anything, the world would be an infinitely better place.

 

If your ideal's are enforced to the detriment of innocents around you, are your really being idealistic or moral?  

 

Wynne's preachy-ness was more about repeating things that were dumped into her head at an early age than any real thought or morality.  Its even something The Guardian picks up on.  Probably intentional part of the writers, they try to create characters with flaws after all.

 

She also had an almost incapability to she her opinions as not being "what is"......she was fairly prideful.  Like her opinion on relationships, I think spartans were supposed to have relationships with one another and a few hundred of them defeated thousands of persians.  She acts like she understands warfare and sacrifice but really she doesn't understand anything.

 

She went to the circle yeah and it was the best thing of her life; gave up a child.......harsh but also means she didn't have to deal with the struggles to be a parent.

 

Obligations vs doing things for your benefit; you know most of the time what we do isn't for our benefit, after a certain point most people are married, have kids and help deal with their friends and families problems.  It could be argued doing something purely for yourself is far more uncommon than being willing to make sacrifices for others.

 

Most people aren't sociopaths after all.

 

Also inregards to Avernus; he wasn't tied to a demon, that was the elf in the werewolf storyline.  Avernus just used bloodmagic to expand his life and said his knowledge was basically in the notes/potion you drank.  And if you don't kill him he's still there to teach others about what he learned.