How is Alistair a 'good guy'? He betrays you and the cause and is wiling to abandon Fereldan and possibly the entire world to the Blight if you don't kill someone he doesn't like.
He's a man child.
Not really. He wants vengeance, simple as that. A man is responsible for the death of his good friend, a father figure at that, that man deserves to die. If you don't want to kill that man who caused his friends death, he leaves you with good reason. Nothing wrong with that.
I liked both Alistair and Wynne quite a bit until Alistair threw a hissy fit over Loghain.
And depending on if he learned about the wardens's ultimate sacrifice before the end I might like him less.
Other than that however I like goody characters
I don't mind good characters, but so often I think the writers confuse "good" with "boring".
Its the same thing in wrestling. The heels are interesting because they have personality while the faces are boring because they're generic cut and paste "Say your prayers and take your vitamins" type guys more often than not.
I don't think that is necessarily the case with Bioware writers. They have certainly written some very "good" characters over the years. But, as I said before, every character needs some flaws to make them human.
Back to my previous Arthurian analogy Lancelot, and later his son Galahad, were both despised by many of the knights for their qualities as they were perceived as putting themselves above the rest of humanity ("The Once and Future King" and " Le Mort d'Arthur" are good Arthurian reads). One of my personal favorite musicals is Camelot, wherein Lancelot sings "C'est Moi" as he rides into Camelot, Guenevere replies to his arrogance with "Then you may take me to the fair," and later Mordred sings "The Seven Deadly Virtues". All flawed characters who superficially represent the spectrum from good to evil, but in truth are varying shades of grey set against a backdrop of Chivalry and Christian morality.
Even Salvatore's Drizzt is not without his flaws. He certainly succumbs to his "humanity" in later books as he teams up Entreri and Dahlia. I won't argue that Drizzt ever crosses the line and departs from the path of good - but he is certainly not a paladin.
On the subject of "good' characters, I would say DAI seems likely to have a preponderance of them. Cassandra, Blackwall, Dorian, and Sera all seem to have very noble goals and to possess strong moral convictions from what we know of them. Cole seems to be in the process of evolving his morality and his intentions appear to be good. None of the other characters seem likely to be classically "evil".
I enjoyed Wynne and Alistair as good characters, in part because of their flaws in DAO. But I would argue that we don't know enough of Morrigan's motivations to judge whether she was good or evil (I suspect the answer lies squarely in the middle), Leliana, in spite of her conversion and current appearance as an overtly good character, was not a virtuous character in her life as a bard. Oghren, in spite of his alcoholism, still tries to do what is right - although sometimes he fails spectacularly. In DA2 I would define Aveline and Bethany as "good" characters. I only did one mage play through and I don't remember my interactions with Carver that well, but he seemed decent. Anders is trying to do good (until he falls off the deep end), Varric is kind and loyal.
But I don't think any of the above Bioware characters (with the exception of Aveline) would fall under the D&D definition of lawful good.. Most would hit somewhere between neutral and chaotic good if you had to classify them. The remaining cast would fit somewhere in the neutral spectrum. Can't think of any I would define as evil.
Backlash on good characters.
Wynne: her character was well written, but i didnt like her for the old lady preacher type. As for backlash, she got her son taken away.... and died.... thats about it... not really backlash to me.
Allistair: better character, but the thing with him getting all butthurt over loghain was just bad. backlash, um well considering the different paths.... he gets to be a king no other country respects, a drunk in the bar (not really backlash if you ask me, be backlash if he was sober), or a warden (which is what he wanted anyway). As for the whole being marics son thing and getting sent to eamon and then the chantry, meh, some backlash, but dont tell me he doesnt deserve it for the bad jokes
Backlash on good characters.
Wynne: her character was well written, but i didnt like her for the old lady preacher type. As for backlash, she got her son taken away.... and died.... thats about it... not really backlash to me.
Allistair: better character, but the thing with him getting all butthurt over loghain was just bad. backlash, um well considering the different paths.... he gets to be a king no other country respects, a drunk in the bar (not really backlash if you ask me, be backlash if he was sober), or a warden (which is what he wanted anyway). As for the whole being marics son thing and getting sent to eamon and then the chantry, meh, some backlash, but dont tell me he doesnt deserve it for the bad jokes
Thedas doesn't respect Ferelden? They will learn! THEY WILL LEARN!
Wynne and Alistair are the best, and that's the fact XD
Personally I can't stand selfish characters without anything or anyone to die for like Morrigan and Isabella (excluding obviously romance with the PC). Points of view may differ, but I'll always respect people who are not afraid to sacriface themselves for the better cause
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Wynne and Alistair are the best, and that's the fact XD
Personally I can't stand selfish characters without anything or anyone to die for like Morrigan and Isabella (excluding obviously romance with the PC). Points of view may differ, but I'll always respect people who are not afraid to sacriface themselves for the better cause
Nothing wrong with sacrificing yourself per se. It's admirable.
The problem is expecting others to do it. That should be a personal choice. It's also wrong to lead people on or make them believe something else at first. Or trying to make it out to be the greatest thing ever.
If I had to tell someone to lay down their life for the greater good, I'd tell them "Yeah, I know it sucks". I wouldn't tell them how awesome it is. lol
Often this stuff is just grim work. Watch Ken Burns' documentary on WW2. A lot of those veterans interviewed don't make it out to be a great thing. They just see themselves as doing what had to be done. My own grandpa who fought there completely refused to talk about WW2 at that. He was not happy about any of it.
Nothing wrong with sacrificing yourself per se. It's admirable.
The problem is expecting others to do it. That should be a personal choice. It's wrong to lead people on or make them believe something else at first. Or trying to make it out to be the greatest thing ever.
Often this stuff is just grim work. Watch Ken Burns' documentary on WW2. A lot of those veterans interviewed don't make it out to be a great thing. They just see themselves as doing what had to be done. My own grandpa who fought there completely refused to talk about WW2 at that. He was not happy about any of it.
If a person has nothing or nobody to die for this person is worth zero, nothing. Such a person is selfish and will easily make others suffer for her/his own enjoyment because such a person has no understanding of "No, you can't do that, that's evil". I have no respect for such trash
Wynne was probably one of the wisest characters Bioware has ever created among companions including Sten, Samara and Wrex. They all had diffirent points of view, personalities, they believed in diffirent gods, followed diffirent philosophies. But they all shared one common trait: they had an ideal to follow, experince for it as well as wisdom and common sense. They weren't afraid or kill for their ideals, did some bad stuff, killed some innocent people and never pretended they were perfect. They knew that for their actions eventually they'd pay and that they deserved it, and they would accept the punishment because it would be a right thing to do.
So what? My grandfather fought in WW2 as well, my grandmother was a spy in a ukranian town occupied by nazis. Neither liked to talk about the war, both both admitted they knew that some work just had to be done. It wasn't pretty, but if they didn't do what they had to do, much more people would die. War is never pretty, but as long as a person doesn't overstep boundaries and actually tries to help and save people, even by risking her/his own life, not all is lost
Guest_StreetMagic_*
So what? My grandfather fought in WW2 as well, my grandmother was a spy in a ukranian town occupied by nazis. Neither liked to talk about the war, both both admitted they knew that some work just had to be done. It wasn't pretty, but if they didn't do what they had to do, much more people would die. War is never pretty, but as long as a person doesn't overstep boundaries and actually tries to help and save people, even by risking her/his own life, not all is lost
"So what?" You're saying the same thing I am then. Your grandfather knew it was just work that had to be done. Which is my only point. I doubt he turned it into some children's story.
The problem with Wynne and Alistair is they don't paint it like that. They make it out to be great. They both idealize things too much. I have no problem with the concept of sacrifice. I just don't have any time for prettying it up. Or prettying anything up, for that matter. 
Someone earlier said Blackwall will be the same, but I have my doubts. He doesn't look like the type to engage in this kind of thing. I bet he'll be very matter of fact about his job.
"So what?" You're saying the same thing I am then. Your grandfather knew it was just work that had to be done. Which is my only point. I doubt he turned it into some children's story.
The problem with Wynne and Alistair is they don't paint it like that. They make it out to be great. They both idealize things too much. I have no problem with the concept of sacrifice. I just don't have any time for prettying it up. Or prettying anything up, for that matter.
Someone earlier said Blackwall will be the same, but I have my doubts. He doesn't look like the type to engage in this kind of thing. I bet he'll be very matter of fact about his job.
Children stories fit both Wynne (who is very mother-like figure to the Warden and Alistair) and Alistair who is very young and pretty naive
It is great. It may be not pretty, hard, even unfair. But there is nothing more inspiring than a person, who does everything to make things right even if it means dying in the end. Like Andraste, Mordin, Duncan... it's always soothing to know that despite how grimdark the life is, there will always be such people - like little stars shinning in the darkness
Blackwall was described like even a bigger idealist. But the interesting part is that he is very experienced and laidback, unlike lonely Duncan and newbie Alistair. I'm pretty sure that he idealises self-sacriface just like Wynne did
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Children stories fit both Wynne (who is very mother-like figure to the Warden and Alistair) and Alistair who is very young and pretty naive
It is great. It may be not pretty, hard, even unfair. But there is nothing more inspiring than a person, who does everything to make things right even if it means dying in the end. Like Andraste, Mordin, Duncan... it's always soothing to know that despite how grimdark the life is, there will always be such people - like little stars shinning in the darkness
Blackwall was described like even a bigger idealist. But the interesting part is that he is very experienced and laidback, unlike lonely Duncan and newbie Alistair. I'm pretty sure that he idealises self-sacriface just like Wynne did
If he does, I'll probably get tired of him too, I guess. If I have a main beef with anything here, it's just idealists in general. I'd rather point out crappy things for what they are. And in the course of life, if I have to, I'll wade through crap myself. But I'm never going to tell myself the crap smells good. 
If he does, I'll probably get tired of him too, I guess. If I have a main beef with anything here, it's just idealists in general. I'd rather point out crappy things for what they are. And if I have to, I'll wade through crap myself. But I'm never going to tell myself the crap smells good.
People saving other people and good things in the world are not crap. They're the greatest treasure the humanity will ever have
Guest_StreetMagic_*
People saving other people and good things in the world are not crap. They're the greatest treasure the humanity will ever have
You're an idealist yourself, I see 
I have my doubts on what the ultimate meaning of sacrifices are. I do things for immediate needs. I don't look at things that way. If I was a Warden and this was all real, I'd probably respond to it like Bethany. I'd do my job, but not take joy in it. There's also a line in Awakening when Anders asks about their ultimate goal.
The line I always pick with that dialogue is "We die young and become forgotten."
Sacrifice my character life for Thedas haha that is good this world isn't worth it.Wynne was naive and hypocritical just love how she demands our sacrifice and talk about responsibility and duty but she leaves you because she doesn't like you during blight or even says that she hopes that darkspawn kill the warden...
You're an idealist yourself, I see
I have my doubts on what the ultimate meaning of sacrifices are. I do things for immediate needs. I don't look at things that way. If I was a Warden and this was all real, I'd probably respond to it like Bethany. I'd do my job, but not take joy in it. There's also a line in Awakening when Anders asks about their ultimate goal.
The line I always pick with that dialogue is "We die young and become forgotten."
I guess you'll get along with Sera the best. Screw greater good, it's all about what's right in this very moment
Me? I like seeing the bigger picture and following my ideals. Not an easy point of view, since you start to notice so much shitty things happening around and peole not caring. But, well, who needs easy ways anyway?
I think the point is, being a Grey Warden is, well grey, so it shouldn't be called white
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I like seeing the bigger picture and following my ideals. Not an easy point of view, since you start to notice so much shitty things happening around and peole not caring. But, well, who needs easy ways anyway?
I can appreciate that at least, but I couldn't live that way. I try to tune out as much as I can (I don't even watch the news anymore), but react to crisis.
I have no problem with good characters, but I do have a distinct preference for pragmatic good characters rather than idealistic ones. A pragmatic good character will understand that sometimes a sacrifice needs to be made for the greater good, no matter how heartbreaking it might be. Whereas there are some good characters that will want to save everyone, regardless of the consequences to themselves, or to the effort as a whole. They're excellent people, but their goodness is both a weakness and a strength.
In the same way, I also like characters with a healthy dose of suspicion, for survival purposes. Completely trusting, noble good people lead fantastic, but very short lives- says a lot about the world, really. I just want my fellow characters to have good survival skills, and to understand that you can't always save everyone.
huh, where did you notice this backlash you speak of?
i don't watch GoT, this thing is f..n boring.
Wynne was one of the most interesting chars in DA, being 'good' or 'bad' has nothing to do with it. normally i have a serious problem with honourable/self-righteous/preachy chars (Anomen, Kivan and so on), but that old lady was just too well written and even when i was on my evil healer PT, she had to come with
Guest_StreetMagic_*
The main thing I do like about Wynne is she talks about our various origin stories. She tries to get to know us, at least for a second.
To me, the best thing about DAO is the origins. Not the Warden job. The things I remember more fondly about that game are the beginnings. It's too bad it's over fairly quickly, and all paths sort of lead to a more general hero story. And all characters mostly address you that way. I liked Hawke more because the personal story was interwoven throughout the whole game.
Wynne and Alistair had possibly unlikable traits too.
Wynne was self-righteous, judgmental and preachy. She talked about things she didn't know and tried to force others to embrace her view and getting pissy if they didn't.
Alistair was unreasonable, blind and quick to blame others, mostly after Redcliffe and during the Landsmeet. I get why he's angry if you spare Loghain, but he leaves the whole fight after venerating Duncan and the Wardens for an entire game, and, like Wynne, getting all pissy if the warden didn't share the same view.
If you play a Warden who's tired because he's lost a lot already, and just wants to do his job because he knows what's at stake but isn't too fond of the whole taint and sacrifice business, the two of them start to rub on you.
People don't like companions that have cheek to disagree with the almighty PC.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
People don't like companions that have cheek to disagree with the almighty PC.
If that was the case, people might hate everyone but Garrus and Varric.
Most companions are disagreeable in a general sense. It depends how you play.
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