311 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Oh come on. I think we're all having a pretty good discussion on it. On both sides. It doesn't have to be so simplified now.

 

I wish I was an immature brat myself. I just turned 37 yesterday.

 

Bah! I'm 37 and I'll openly admit there are times where I still act like a kid in a candy store. Okay granted maybe I'm not a brat when I am and rarely immature, but still like a kid all the same

 

On-topic, personally I tend to treat the characters in the games, just as they are... characters. I generally like a lot of the characters the Bioware writers make purely because they generally are well rounded in that they all have their good points and their bad and that accounts for all aspects of good and bad. My Heroes (ie. Warden/Hawke/Shepard) however... it all depends on their personality. There are some of my Wardens that like Alistair and/or Wynne and then there are some that don't and that can be said for most of the characters within the group and that of Hawke's and Shepard's companions.

[naddaya]

Hating other people (especially elders) for "preaching" is ignorance. The ignorance which has a hint of teenager-like mentality with all the "I hate adults!" "I know better than them!" "How they dare to tell me how to live?!". Doube ignorance, you see. If Wynne was contantly critisizing the PC or forcing them into doing something inappropriate I would agree. But don't be surprised if people frown at you for kicking puppies, stealing food from orphans or being in general selfish mean jerks cuz, well, jerks deserve it

 

Oh, but it's also how thread go fun

 

Oh really.

 

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She constantly tells you you should sacrifice for the greater good and all that jazz. Which is all good and nice, except that the Warden probably knows that already. I've heard it a thousand times.

 

Wynne treats you like you're some inexperienced child who needs guidance, which can be fine to some players, grating to others. It's certainly funny when she speaks to a dwarf noble.

 

She's stuck in her idealistic views, sometimes unreasonable and blind. She tells you that your actions aren't proper for a Grey Warden if you bang Zevran. Apparently Wardens can't have sex. Someone better have informed Duncan.

And when confronted, you have no option of saying "Yes, I know what's at stake. No, I won't sacrifice the world to save my love, because, you know, we would all die. We could all die tomorrow for all I know. I'm content with killing darkspawn and having sex. There's a grand total of two wardens in the entire Ferelden, the responsibility of ending the Blight lays on me. I know that. Thanks. No, I don't want to return to the Circle tower because, hey, what about my duty as a Grey Warden we talked about earlier? No, I don't think your apprentice wants to come back either. He escaped from the tower. He's happy with the Dalish. Good talk."

 

I accept advice on how to live when it has a basis. But she doesn't offer wisdom, she offers banalities. Butting heads with people with different ideas can open your mind. Sten changed my point of view on some things. Hell, even Loghain. That only works when both sides listen though. I felt like Wynne wasn't listening at all, with few exceptions, not only with my Warden but with other companions and her former apprentice as well. Being old doesn't automatically make you wise.

 

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After all the babbling, I'd like to point out that I don't hate Wynne. I think she's fairly smart and compassionate. She usually approves my Warden's choices. Her personality simply grates on me sometimes.

[KaiserShep]

People don't like companions that have cheek to disagree with the almighty PC.

Morrigan and Sten disagreed with my Warden quite a bit, yet they were some of my favorite characters in Origins.

[Chari]

Oh really.

 

She constantly tells you you should sacrifice for the greater good and all that jazz. Which is all good and nice, except that you know that already. You've heard it a thousand times. Wynne treats you like you're some inexperienced child who needs guidance, which can be fine to some players, grating to others. It's certainly funny when she speaks to a dwarf noble. She tells you your actions aren't proper for a Grey Warden if you bang Zevran. Apparently Wardens can't have sex, someone better have informed Duncan I guess. She's stuck in her idealistic views, sometimes unreasonable and blind. I accept advice on how to live when it has a basis. But she doesn't offer wisdom, she offers banalities. Butting heads with people with different ideas can open your mind. Sten changed my point of view on some things. Hell, even Loghain. That only works when both sides listen though. I felt like Wynne wasn't listening at all, with few exceptions, not only with my Warden but with other companions and her former apprentice as well. Being old doesn't automatically make you wise.

 

After all the babbling, I'd like to point out that I don't hate Wynne. I think she's fairly smart and compassionate. She usually approves my Warden's choices. Her personality simply grates on me sometimes.

Because the warden is an inexperienced child who needs guidance. Our Warden at best is about 25-30 years old, our warden has not gone through the warden training, our warden is not the player, but a character in the Thedas. giving advise is only a logical and right thing to do in such situation for somebody like Wynne or Sten. On their actions lives of people depend and forgetting about one's duty is one of the worst crimes a Grey Warden can commit. Because yes, having a relationship for a warden is a burden. Wynne gives a good advice in case of all four LIs - is your warden prepared to be able to sacriface everything for the greater good or does your warden only think she/he is? Because once you accept this duty, you no longer belong to yourself, you belong to the world, this is what Grey Wardens are about. Sacriface everything you care for so the others will live. It's tragic, yet beautiful

Oh, and making the younger Duncan as an example is foolish: that Duncin is not the DA:O Duncan, he didn't want to be a grey warden and during the novels he was young and inexperienced, hardly representing the order until the end of the book.

 

Wynne is sympathetic, compassionate, wise, kind, loyal and brave - if you dislike such personalities... well, your loss

[Chari]

I don't think they're so much a child as to be told some of these things. Even the Guardian of Sacred Ashes tells her she's just dishing out platitudes.

 

It's always been my theory that it's the Spirit of Faith that makes her this way. Spirits are simple.

Child enough to listen to the wiser and more experienced folk. Tabris is hardly adult, 16-18 probably. Guidance is needed, regardless of what the player thinks

[JBONE271983_Tacolover]

I haven't really seen anyone complain about Alister or Wynn.  The ones I've seen the most complaints about are Anders and Fenris, neither of whom can really be considered 'good characters.'  As far as DAI characters, I see most of them as good, with varrying shades of lawfulness.

 

Sera, and Varric are both chaotic good.

 

Cassandra is lawful good.

 

Blackwall, Dorian, and possibly Cole and The Iron Bull are neutral good (actually not to sure about Cole having not read Asunder... no spoilers please)

 

The only companions I don't think are good are Vivianne and Solas.  Vivianne seems lawful neutral and Solas is a complete unknown.

 

As far as the advisors.  Leliana seems to be going towards true neutral while Cole is almost certainly lawful good.  I have no idea what Scribbles is like since there is literally no information about her role, personality, or name.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Because the warden is an inexperienced child who needs guidance. Our Warden at best is about 25-30 years old, our warden has not gone through the warden training, our warden is not the player, but a character in the Thedas. giving advise is only a logical and right thing to do in such situation for somebody like Wynne or Sten. On their actions lives of people depend and forgetting about one's duty is one of the worst crimes a Grey Warden can commit. Because yes, having a relationship for a warden is a burden. Wynne gives a good advice in case of all four LIs - is your warden prepared to be able to sacriface everything for the greater good or does your warden only think she/he is? Because once you accept this duty, you no longer belong to yourself, you belong to the world, this is what Grey Wardens are about. Sacriface everything you care for so the others will live. It's tragic, yet beautiful

Oh, and making the younger Duncan as an example is foolish: that Duncin is not the DA:O Duncan, he didn't want to be a grey warden and during the novels he was young and inexperienced, hardly representing the order until the end of the book.

 

Wynne is sympathetic, compassionate, wise, kind, loyal and brave - if you dislike such personalities... well, your loss

Well and why warden have to sacrifice their lives? Maybe they don't want to hm? She talks a lot about responsibility and sacrifice.And yet she her abandoned son... she leaves you if she doesn't like you rather selfish reason to not help you with blight...

She is naive about warden job and their action and think they are white knigts which is far from truth... and she knows little about life and world around not wise at all... preachy and hypocritical...

[Doominike]

Wynne is a naive idealist with a very romanticized view of the Grey Wardens. She tells you to be a selfless shining paragon because she thinks that's what wardens are like. But we all know that's BS, wardens employ murderers and blood mages, they burn down villages and summon demons. There's a reason they're called GREY wardens rather than say, White Paladins of Incorruptible Pure Pureness 

[naddaya]

Because the warden is an inexperienced child who needs guidance. Our Warden at best is about 25-30 years old, our warden has not gone through the warden training, our warden is not the player, but a character in the Thedas. giving advise is only a logical and right thing to do in such situation for somebody like Wynne or Sten. On their actions lives of people depend and forgetting about one's duty is one of the worst crimes a Grey Warden can commit. Because yes, having a relationship for a warden is a burden. Wynne gives a good advice in case of all four LIs - is your warden prepared to be able to sacriface everything for the greater good or does your warden only think she/he is? Because once you accept this duty, you no longer belong to yourself, you belong to the world, this is what Grey Wardens are about. Sacriface everything you care for so the others will live. It's tragic, yet beautiful

Oh, and making the younger Duncan as an example is foolish: that Duncin is not the DA:O Duncan, he didn't want to be a grey warden and during the novels he was young and inexperienced, hardly representing the order until the end of the book.

 

Wynne is sympathetic, compassionate, wise, kind, loyal and brave - if you dislike such personalities... well, your loss

 

The Warden can have different personalities and different experiences depending on his upbringing. I have a hard time imagining the Dwarf Noble as an innocent naive kid, age doesn't matter. I was 15 when I first played DA and still felt like she was lecturing me about things I knew already.

 

My canon mage Warden sure wasn't. She was a killer and she knew that. She knew what was at stake. She knew that she had the responsibility to end the Blight. She didn't need to hear about selflessness and sacrifice, she needed to know how the taint worked, how to fight darkspawn more effectively, how many years she had left, how to kill an Archdemon, theories on the origin of the darkspawn and the nature of the Old Gods, and where to find a decent map of the Deep Roads.

 

The Grey Wardens are about killing darkspawn and ending Blights, they don't have to like it. Some might. I bet most don't. Duncan was far from her sunshine and rainbows view of the Wardens in DAO, and Alistair sure was quick to forget his duty, despite being the Warden's number one fan for the majority of the game. I still don't see how having sex makes you a worst warden.

[Doominike]

I agree the "bad" choices that are actually pragmatism should pay off. It's the whole point of being pragmatic, efficiency. Practical (if ruthless) actions shouldn't bite you in the ass

[naddaya]

I agree the "bad" choices that are actually pragmatism should pay off. It's the whole point of being pragmatic, efficiency. Practical (if ruthless) actions shouldn't bite you in the ass

 

Dumb choices should have bad results most of the times, whether they're moral or amoral. I'd like some consequences to be random though. People can get away with dumb moves if they're lucky, and the execution of good ideas doesn't always go as planned.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I agree the "bad" choices that are actually pragmatism should pay off. It's the whole point of being pragmatic, efficiency. Practical (if ruthless) actions shouldn't bite you in the ass

Well to be honest if life was so simple everyone would be winner.Action have many consequences so choice may give you something but also take you something.Sometimes something may seems beneficial and pragmatic at frist but it can after long time bite you in... simple because as human you can't see bigger image. 

[Doominike]

Not 100% of the time obviously but in general. For exemple being logical in social situations doesn't usually work very well (rl exp talking) but logical strategies and tactics should be the best ones since strategy is all about using logic

[Doominike]

On topic though, I don't see more hate for "good" than for "bad" characters, all of them seem to have both fans and haters, even the more neutral and agreeable ones like Varric. 

[KaiserShep]

Wynne is a naive idealist with a very romanticized view of the Grey Wardens. She tells you to be a selfless shining paragon because she thinks that's what wardens are like. But we all know that's BS, wardens employ murderers and blood mages, they burn down villages and summon demons. There's a reason they're called GREY wardens rather than say, White Paladins of Incorruptible Pure Pureness 

 

I rather liked Wynne's disapproval of accepting the tasks from Master Ignacio in the Trial of Crows quest, and how that turned out to be beneficial in the civil war that Loghain started. The Warden is essentially a monster hunter and a murderer. There's no need to complicate it with all that fluffy talk.

[Xilizhra]

But I don't think any of the above Bioware characters (with the exception of Aveline) would fall under the D&D definition of lawful good..  Most would hit somewhere between neutral and chaotic good if you had to classify them.  The remaining cast would fit somewhere in the neutral spectrum.  Can't think of any I would define as evil.

I would say that Wynne qualifies for, and Alistair is close to, lawful good. As for evil... Zevran, Shale, and Loghain have all been evil.

[Doominike]

Even the "bad" companions are really just darker grey than the "good" ones. And my HM warden was morally blue

[naddaya]

I would say that Wynne qualifies for, and Alistair is close to, lawful good. As for evil... Zevran, Shale, and Loghain have all been evil.

 

Arguable. Loghain did everything he did to protect his country. Zevran was raised a killer but he showed a great deal of compassion during the course of the game. Shale was imprisoned and only wanted freedom. D&D morality is too simplistic.