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The Vivienne Thread - more than just parlor tricks


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#351
mikeymoonshine

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It seems probable that she's racist against elves and makes "individual exceptions" for certain elf mages who happen to impress her. I get the very strong feeling that she's the sort of person to blame the poor for their own poverty, with that extending to the vast majority of elves.

 

Well that's not racism either. Even the Dalish are prejudice agaist city elves and have similar opinions on them being responsible for their situation, are they racist against their own race? 

 

 

Personality clashes frequently bring out racism that might otherwise be hidden. I shall watch carefully.

 

Um, frequently? They certainly can do that but not if the people clashing with each other are not racist. 



#352
Joe25

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If Vivienne was real:

tumblr_mkftgh5fCA1renc44o1_500.gif

I was thinking more of this 

Spoiler

Or 

Spoiler



#353
LobselVith8

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Well that's not racism either. Even the Dalish are prejudice agaist city elves and have similar opinions on them being responsible for their situation, are they racist against their own race? 

 

Some Dalish are like that. Just like some city elves look down on elves who try to live outside the Alienage, and some view the Dalish as little more than savages.


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#354
Xilizhra

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More attractive than you should? You mean, because of her personality?

Yes.

 

 

Well that's not racism either. Even the Dalish are prejudice agaist city elves and have similar opinions on them being responsible for their situation, are they racist against their own race? 

Those who do so, yes, or at least ethnocentric/nationalist.

 

 

Um, frequently? They certainly can do that but not if the people clashing with each other are not racist. 

Indeed, but I strongly suspect Vivienne is.



#355
AresKeith

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Do we have anything that actually tells us why Vivienne is pro Circle? Obviously she doesn't want to be caged and sexually assaulted, so it can only be that it would mean a loss of power and standing for mages in her position, no? 

 

You act like that happens at every Circle



#356
Maria Caliban

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Vivienne is racist against elves?

What the what?

#357
LobselVith8

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Do we have anything that actually tells us why Vivienne is pro Circle? Obviously she doesn't want to be caged and sexually assaulted, so it can only be that it would mean a loss of power and standing for mages in her position, no? 

 

No, we simply have it addressed that she is pro-Circle, and that she doesn't seem to agree with the Mage-Templar War.

 

If the mages win, I'd wager she'd Tywin Lannister the whole affair - immediately side with the mages and find something she could do to make a big show of loyalty and secure her position, leveraging her political knowhow/standing/esteem for a position in some new mage order. 

 

I believe Vivienne already turned them down. "To this end, Vivienne defies those who may see her only as a social climber or someone whose power must be restricted, and even fellow mages who try to push her into backing the Mage-Templar War, a rebellion she does not support."



#358
AresKeith

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Vivienne is racist against elves?

What the what?

 

I feel ya

 

To me it's like people are trying find more reasons to not like Vivienne


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#359
Xilizhra

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Vivienne is racist against elves?

What the what?

Vivienne is roughly the equivalent of a white Southerner in 1893: it's possible for her to not be racist, but I doubt it.



#360
Hellion Rex

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Vivienne is racist against elves?

What the what?

No, Xil's just guessing, nothing more.



#361
Hellion Rex

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Vivienne is roughly the equivalent of a white Southerner in 1893: it's possible for her to not be racist, but I doubt it.

That's a really bad analogy, Xil.


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#362
Xilizhra

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That's a really sh!tty analogy, Xil.

Orlesian nobility? Hell, it's a better analogy than it might seem at first, because both groups happily engage in not-real-slavery-we-pinky-swear.



#363
AresKeith

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Vivienne is roughly the equivalent of a white Southerner in 1893: it's possible for her to not be racist, but I doubt it.

 

Are you serious?



#364
In Exile

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No, we simply have it addressed that she is pro-Circle, and that she doesn't seem to agree with the Mage-Templar War.

 

We don't really know anything about it, so reading into her character that she disagrees with the cause itself at some fundamental level is pretty unwarranted at this point IMO.

 

I believe Vivienne already turned them down. "To this end, Vivienne defies those who may see her only as a social climber or someone whose power must be restricted, and even fellow mages who try to push her into backing the Mage-Templar War, a rebellion she does not support."

 
So far, the mages aren't really winning. They're just slumming it in the mud. Also, the line you're quoting is not what the blurb says. The full blurb:
 
"Referred to as Madame de Fer, “the Lady of Iron”, Vivienne lives up to her title. A leader among the mages and official enchanter to the Imperial court, she is renowned as a fearsome woman who achieved her position through guile and deft political maneuvering. Vivienne allows nothing to stand in the way of what she desires—not those who claim she is a social climber, not those who seek to restrict her power, not even her fellow mages who would conscript her into a rebellion with which she disagrees. Vivienne fights to restore order in a world gone mad…so long as that leaves her among those left standing, once all is said and done." 
 
This sentence doesn't tell us anything about why she disagrees with the rebellion (it doesn't call it a cause). It doesn't say that she's opposed to the cause - free mages - but rather that she's opposed to rebelling because it gets in the way of what she desires. The rebellion is standing in the way of what she desires, so she's not onside with it. That's what this quote is saying. Not that she somehow wants the templars to get a few extra beatings in. 
 
Based on that blurb, it certainly sounds like if what she desires - her position and status - is only possible by siding with her fellow mages, she's going to side with then. 


#365
Joe25

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Vivienne is roughly the equivalent of a white Southerner in 1893: it's possible for her to not be racist, but I doubt it.

As a white southerner I should take take offence to this. But, really dude you had to play that card. We no nothing about her character, and since when did elf equal black. REALLY are that blind. 



#366
Xilizhra

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As a white southerner I should take take offence to this. But, really dude you had to play that card. We no nothing about her character, and since when did elf equal black. REALLY are that blind. 

The point is that she's part of a demographic in which racism is bitterly endemic, shown clearly in TME.



#367
LobselVith8

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We don't really know anything about it, so reading into her character that she disagrees with the cause itself at some fundamental level is pretty unwarranted at this point IMO.

 

It's roughly three months away, so it's just speculation from players with limited information. We know relatively little, but I think some people anticipate Vivienne's apparent support for the Chantry controlled Circles to be an issue. Given that it's already been said we can side with the mages, I think it'll be moot if it is a matter of supporting the Chantry controlled Circle. And as we all know, different people view the Circles in completely different ways, so that's bound to complicate things. Similar to the strongly-worded language that's used when some address Anders.

 

So far, the mages aren't really winning. They're just slumming it in the mud. Also, the line you're quoting is not what the blurb says. The full blurb:

 
"Referred to as Madame de Fer, “the Lady of Iron”, Vivienne lives up to her title. A leader among the mages and official enchanter to the Imperial court, she is renowned as a fearsome woman who achieved her position through guile and deft political maneuvering. Vivienne allows nothing to stand in the way of what she desires—not those who claim she is a social climber, not those who seek to restrict her power, not even her fellow mages who would conscript her into a rebellion with which she disagrees. Vivienne fights to restore order in a world gone mad…so long as that leaves her among those left standing, once all is said and done." 
 
This sentence doesn't tell us anything about why she disagrees with the rebellion (it doesn't call it a cause). It doesn't say that she's opposed to the cause - free mages - but rather that she's opposed to rebelling because it gets in the way of what she desires. The rebellion is standing in the way of what she desires, so she's not onside with it. That's what this quote is saying. Not that she somehow wants the templars to get a few extra beatings in. 
 
Based on that blurb, it certainly sounds like if what she desires - her position and status - is only possible by siding with her fellow mages, she's going to side with then. 

 

I suppose that's possible. We're all really just guessing at this point, since Inquisition is months away from being released. You could very well be right, and Vivienne may show support if the Inquisitor establishes an alliance with the leaders of the mage rebellion.



#368
mikeymoonshine

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Some Dalish are like that. Just like some city elves look down on elves who try to live outside the Alienage, and some view the Dalish as little more than savages.

 

Sorry I was generalizing the Dalish to make a point. 



#369
Hellion Rex

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The point is that she's part of a demographic in which racism is bitterly endemic, shown clearly in TME.

Which, by the way, you didn't read.

 

Perhaps you ought to wait before casting out such assumptions, considering how little we know of her.



#370
mikeymoonshine

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The point is that she's part of a demographic in which racism is bitterly endemic, shown clearly in TME.

 

Your once again ignoring the fact that she is a cirlce mage and not an Orlesian noble. The circle doesn't treat elves any different to other mages and we don't know what Vivienne's views will be. 


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#371
Xilizhra

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Which, by the way, you didn't read.

 

Perhaps you ought to wait before casting out such assumptions, considering how little we know of her.

I'll be watching carefully.

At any rate, do you think her opinion on the aforementioned subjects could be changed?



#372
LobselVith8

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Sorry I was generalizing the Dalish to make a point. 

 

No problem. I think the recent tone of discussion over at the chevalier thread brought up some rather nasty reminders about Orlesian culture, and I think Vivienne's status as an Orlesian may be the cause of concern for some, like Xil, given her status at Court.



#373
mikeymoonshine

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Those who do so, yes, or at least ethnocentric/nationalist.

 

 

That makes no sense, stop lumping prejudice against the poor (that you don't even know if Viv has) in with racism. 


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#374
Hellion Rex

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I'll be watching carefully.

At any rate, do you think her opinion on the aforementioned subjects could be changed?

Yes, I do think her opinions can be swayed, whether by experiencing life outside of the Circle, or my Inquisitor showing her how wrong she is about some things.



#375
Xilizhra

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Yes, I do think her opinions can be swayed, whether by experiencing life outside of the Circle, or my Inquisitor showing her how wrong she is about some things.

It's interesting. Unlike Iron Bull, whom I want nothing to do with whatsoever, I do want to take Vivienne along to see how much drama I can extract in certain places.