No problem. I think the recent tone of discussion over at the chevalier thread brought up some rather nasty reminders about Orlesian culture, and I think Vivienne's status as an Orlesian may be the cause of concern for some, like Xil, given her status at Court.
I'm not saying Xil is wrong, I just don't think we have much to go on either way.
Well, she is a circle mage and the circle doesn't treat elves differently.
Some humans in the Circle might treat elves differently or look down on them. I'm not saying Vivienne does but it can happen. I think the elf in the Magi Origin says something about this if you are a human mage.
The Circle as an institution doesn't discriminate against elves.
The point is that she's part of a demographic in which racism is bitterly endemic, shown clearly in TME.
She is also a part of the Circle where elves can hold positions of power over humans. I don't expect her to be racist against elves.
I'm not saying Xil is wrong, I just don't think we have much to go on either way.
I agree; it's pure speculation at this point. I simply think Vivienne's status as an Orlesian is behind some of the concern Xil has about the character. Even Leliana can be told by an elven Warden that he (or she) finds the Orlesian treatment of elven servants distasteful (to put it mildly), and she's open-minded enough to take this to heart and say she is going to re-evaluate things.
Some humans in the Circle might treat elves differently or look down on them. I'm not saying Vivienne does but it can happen. I think the elf in the Magi Origin says something about this if you are a human mage.
The Circle as an institution doesn't discriminate against elves.
Yeh I get that but I just meant that she isn't actually part of the racist nobility she socialises with. She is part of the circle so we can't really assume she shares their views about elves. She might share them but she might not, we just don't know.
Her friction with the elves in our party doesn't seem to be based on race at all from what the devs have been saying.
I agree; it's pure speculation at this point. I simply think Vivienne's status as an Orlesian is behind some of the concern Xil has about the character. Even Leliana can be told by an elven Warden that he (or she) finds the Orlesian treatment of elven servants distasteful (to put it mildly), and she's open-minded enough to take this to heart and say she is going to re-evaluate things.
Yeah I remember that dialogue. 
I wonder how different the Orlesian citizens are to Fereldens when it comes to this stuff though, We mostly only hear about how bad the nobles are but the citizens could be different. Then again even most of the peasants we have come across aren't all that fond on elves.
I'll be watching carefully.
At any rate, do you think her opinion on the aforementioned subjects could be changed?
Yeah I remember that dialogue.
I wonder how different the Orlesian citizens are to Fereldens when it comes to this stuff though, We mostly only hear about how bad the nobles are but the citizens could be different. Then again even most of the peasants we have come across aren't all that fond on elves.
That's true. Duncan does mention that it's difficult to dissuade a human to see an elf as a person if the human has spent his or her life viewing elves as less than people. Duncan laments at how he's tried to change people's minds about elves, to no avail. Even a mage protagonist can tell Duncan he or she has experienced racism in the Circle, and Eadric has dealt with the same.
Vivienne is intelligent, driven and powerful. She's been exposed to a variety of people through the circle. She's worldly enough to eschew Orleasian politics and join the inquisition. I have trouble believing she could be racist. I can't wait to find out what she is, because she looks fabulous.
The point is that she's part of a demographic in which racism is bitterly endemic, shown clearly in TME.
I haven't had the impression Vivienne is "part of" the Orlesian nobility. I read "outsider" into her position at court. I see her snobbish, well dressed, Iron Lady persona as her personality on steroids played to impress nobles and gain social currency to spend later telling them what their views on mages and other things should be. I don't doubt that she's conservative on some or many issues, I don't doubt that she can be brutally cutthroat when it comes to it for a cause she supports, and I don't doubt that she's materialistic on some level, but a through and through rotten to the core Orlesian noble, I don't think so.
Spoiler
Is there anything in the books about the peoples of Thedas caring about skin color?
If not we shouldn't assume that Vivienne had to fight her way through any glass ceilings. It could be that the people of Thedas don't discriminate based on skin color, and don't really view it as being different from say someone having a different hair color.
Is there anything in the books about the peoples of Thedas caring about skin color?
If not we shouldn't assume that Vivienne had to fight her way through any glass ceilings. It could be that the people of Thedas don't discriminate based on skin color, and don't really view it as being different from say someone having a different hair color.
I think it was a reference to her being a mage but I could be wrong.
Is there anything in the books about the peoples of Thedas caring about skin color?
If not we shouldn't assume that Vivienne had to fight her way through any glass ceilings. It could be that the people of Thedas don't discriminate based on skin color, and don't really view it as being different from say someone having a different hair color.
I think Joe meant Vivivenne being a mage.
I think Joe meant Vivivenne being a mage.
Thank you. you just saved me from having to make a big clarification.
Tbh, I don't think Vivienne would allow the fact that she is a mage to get in the way of her ability to judge others, but that is neither here nor there I guess. 
Tbh, I don't think Vivienne would allow the fact that she is a mage to get in the way of her ability to judge others, but that is neither here nor there I guess.
I agree. Her stance in the Orlasian court proves that her mage status is mostly forgotten. I wonder if Orlesians treat their mages differently than Ferelden.
As a white southerner I should take take offence to this. But, really dude you had to play that card. We no nothing about her character, and since when did elf equal black. REALLY are that blind.
American South? I only ask because I was born and raised there as well, I don't know many who prefer the Queen's English spelling of "offense". Speaking of which, don't take any, I kid...
I think Joe meant Vivivenne being a mage.
Ah..I misunderstood then.I thought he was referring to her position as First Enchanter.
Wouldn't all First Enchanters have access to the leaders of their respective nations? I'm not really seeing the glass ceiling there either. At least for the top end of a Circle.
Ah..I misunderstood then.I thought he was referring to her position as First Enchanter.
Wouldn't all First Enchanters have access to the leaders of their respective nations? I'm not really seeing the glass ceiling there either. At least for the top end of a Circle.
Not necessarily. The power delegated to the First Enchanter by the Knight-Commander varies from Circle to Circle, although with the Mage-Templar War, I'm guessing that's changed.
American South? I only ask because I was born and raised there as well, I don't know many who prefer the Queen's English spelling of "offense". Speaking of which, don't take any, I kid...
Georgia. And, I'm sad to say I'm the only person with enough vocal training to have English accent while every has a twang.
Vivienne doesn't like Solas because:
1) He's a hedge mage and she's pro-Circle
2) He criticizes her and the institution she's attached to.
This is like someone telling a staunch Republican that all conservatives are narrow-minded and out-of-touch. They're unlikely to react well to that.
And 3) She's Orlesian so she is a fashionista and Solas looks like he just throws on what ever he can find to wear.
Georgia. And, I'm sad to say I'm the only person with enough vocal training to have English accent while every has a twang.
Georgia huh? I was born and raised in the Midwest(Kansas) but my parents just recently moved me to Atlanta in late 2013 and I gotta say, it's nice.
And 3) She's Orlesian so she is a fashionista and Solas looks like he just throws on what ever he can find to wear.
CHART TIME!!!
I pieced together information from all the character Q&As with the writers.
Click on image to enlarge
Seeing as Madame de Fer seems to be the least moralistic companion she is definitely my favorite female companion for the time being ,she and my ruthless human mage would get along splendidly.
If my prediction of her is correct and she is confirmed as a romance i would most like be compelled to perform a little jig....dont judge.
Retour en haut
