5943 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

I know. I'm actually not worried about it at all.

 

I think it's interesting how Vivienne is already appearing polarizing. I get the feeling that she's going to be deep on so many different levels.

Heh... yeah, the first time I heard that she was pro-Circle, I knew that she would inevitably come under intense scrutiny.  Everything she says and does is going to wind up magnified because of this... w/e.  That's just how it is.  After hearing her quotes today, I'm feeling pretty confident that she at least has noble intentions even if she's a bit selfish or arrogant.  Nobody's perfect, and her heart seems to be in the right place, which is what really matters.  At this point there is almost no chance that she will be a "more materialistic version of Morrigan," which is what I feared early on...

[HiroVoid]

I don't see what's controversial about Vivienne stating facts.

[TheJediSaint]

I don't see what's controversial about Vivienne stating facts.

Facts are stubborn things, but so are Bioware fans.

[raging_monkey]

I don't see what's controversial about Vivienne stating facts.

some pro-magi fan see that as treason lol

[MattH]

I for one am glad to see characters that are believable. Why does everybody we work with have to be selfless or righteous? It becomes boring and cliched. I want to see complex and layered people, that can't just be described in a single sentence. I get the impression that Vivienne will be very sympathetic to mages who aren't radicalists, who are just average people caught in a war they didn't want. 

[Tevinter Rose]

Lol as if you know what other companions are going to approve of from the get go.

 

I don't. Where'd you get that from what I said? I'm not complaining about Viv at all, I was just saying I'm looking forward to getting to know her.

[Kyno]

I for one am glad to see characters that are believable. Why does everybody we work with have to be selfless or righteous? It becomes boring and cliched. I want to see complex and layered people, that can't just be described in a single sentence. I get the impression that Vivienne will be very sympathetic to mages who aren't radicalists, who are just average people caught in a war they didn't want. 

 

I agree with everything you say here.

[HiroVoid]

I for one am glad to see characters that are believable. Why does everybody we work with have to be selfless or righteous? It becomes boring and cliched. I want to see complex and layered people, that can't just be described in a single sentence. I get the impression that Vivienne will be very sympathetic to mages who aren't radicalists, who are just average people caught in a war they didn't want. 

Honestly, I don't even think she'd be against protests and trying to get more power for the circle.....just not full, open war without any long term plans.

[Yinello]

Found a transcript of the conversation between Viv and Quizzy (Spoilerrific!):

 

--------------------

Spoiler

Inquisitor: Tell me about the Circle of Magi.

Vivienne: Of course. Tell me what you wish to know.

Inquisitor: How did we come to this state, with the Circles in revolt?

Vivienne: You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment. Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of magic. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers. Across Thedas, a new tangible fear of magic grew. Commoners and nobles alike called out to the Chantry for protection. But the malcontents in the towers thought nothing of this. They cared only for themselves and their anger at the new Templar restrictions. When a mage attempted to assassinate Divine Justinia, again, the mages protested the investigation. The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars, sparing no thought to the fact that magic was more feared in the aftermath of these attacks than it had been since Tevinter’s day. So long as they have their freedom, they could care little for riots or angry mobs or pitting mages against each other.

--------------------

 

Note that she's calling out mages and templars both (intolerable conditions), she's simply putting more onus on the mages for being ignorant how society feels about them after two mage attacks. Which as the leader of a Circle makes sense, she'd be able to see more of the mages in action than of templars. I can imagine Cassandra or Cullen being able to regale more of the templar side, even criticising them more.

[TheJediSaint]

Honestly, I don't even think she'd be against protests and trying to get more power for the circle.....just not full, open war without any long term plans.

I suspect a lot of her long-term plans got scuppered buy the current rebellion.

[Kyno]

Found a transcript of the conversation between Viv and Quizzy (Spoilerrific!):

 

--------------------

Spoiler

Inquisitor: Tell me about the Circle of Magi.

Vivienne: Of course. Tell me what you wish to know.

Inquisitor: How did we come to this state, with the Circles in revolt?

Vivienne: You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment. Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of magic. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers. Across Thedas, a new tangible fear of magic grew. Commoners and nobles alike called out to the Chantry for protection. But the malcontents in the towers thought nothing of this. They cared only for themselves and their anger at the new Templar restrictions. When a mage attempted to assassinate Divine Justinia, again, the mages protested the investigation. The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars, sparing no thought to the fact that magic was more feared in the aftermath of these attacks than it had been since Tevinter’s day. So long as they have their freedom, they could care little for riots or angry mobs or pitting mages against each other.

--------------------

 

Note that she's calling out mages and templars both (intolerable conditions), she's simply putting more onus on the mages for being ignorant how society feels about them after two mage attacks. Which as the leader of a Circle makes sense, she'd be able to see more of the mages in action than of templars. I can imagine Cassandra or Cullen being able to regale more of the templar side, even criticising them more.

 

I just want to note that Vivienne is not the first enchanter to a circle of magi. Her position at Montsimmard is disputed and was never made official.

[Icy Magebane]

Found a transcript of the conversation between Viv and Quizzy (Spoilerrific!):

 

--------------------

Spoiler

Inquisitor: Tell me about the Circle of Magi.

Vivienne: Of course. Tell me what you wish to know.

Inquisitor: How did we come to this state, with the Circles in revolt?

Vivienne: You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment. Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of magic. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers. Across Thedas, a new tangible fear of magic grew. Commoners and nobles alike called out to the Chantry for protection. But the malcontents in the towers thought nothing of this. They cared only for themselves and their anger at the new Templar restrictions. When a mage attempted to assassinate Divine Justinia, again, the mages protested the investigation. The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars, sparing no thought to the fact that magic was more feared in the aftermath of these attacks than it had been since Tevinter’s day. So long as they have their freedom, they could care little for riots or angry mobs or pitting mages against each other.

--------------------

 

Note that she's calling out mages and templars both (intolerable conditions), she's simply putting more onus on the mages for being ignorant how society feels about them after two mage attacks. Which as the leader of a Circle makes sense, she'd be able to see more of the mages in action than of templars. I can imagine Cassandra or Cullen being able to regale more of the templar side, even criticising them more.

Well, tbh some of the Kirkwall Templars were kind of hard to defend... a few of them were pretty much flat out criminals who were lucky enough to get a job that let them abuse people.  None of that changes the fact that the Circle is necessary and that the rebellion was unwanted by a large number of mages, which seems to be the main point of Vivienne's statement.  If her "secret agenda" involves reforms to the Circle, then sign me up.  She seems like the type to come up with reasonable compromises that would be beneficial to both sides.

[Hellion Rex]

Found a transcript of the conversation between Viv and Quizzy (Spoilerrific!):

 

--------------------

Spoiler

Inquisitor: Tell me about the Circle of Magi.

Vivienne: Of course. Tell me what you wish to know.

Inquisitor: How did we come to this state, with the Circles in revolt?

Vivienne: You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment. Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of magic. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers. Across Thedas, a new tangible fear of magic grew. Commoners and nobles alike called out to the Chantry for protection. But the malcontents in the towers thought nothing of this. They cared only for themselves and their anger at the new Templar restrictions. When a mage attempted to assassinate Divine Justinia, again, the mages protested the investigation. The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars, sparing no thought to the fact that magic was more feared in the aftermath of these attacks than it had been since Tevinter’s day. So long as they have their freedom, they could care little for riots or angry mobs or pitting mages against each other.

--------------------

 

Note that she's calling out mages and templars both (intolerable conditions), she's simply putting more onus on the mages for being ignorant how society feels about them after two mage attacks. Which as the leader of a Circle makes sense, she'd be able to see more of the mages in action than of templars. I can imagine Cassandra or Cullen being able to regale more of the templar side, even criticising them more.

Yup, that's actually my write up lol

[Ryzaki]

Honestly, I don't even think she'd be against protests and trying to get more power for the circle.....just not full, open war without any long term plans.

 

Yep I have the feeling she was more annoyed about the shortsightedness and foolish way it was done than anything.

[Yinello]

Yup, that's actually my write up lol

Thanks so much!

[raging_monkey]

Ah and the MT debates reach my bar lol

[Xilizhra]

Found a transcript of the conversation between Viv and Quizzy (Spoilerrific!):

 

--------------------

Spoiler

Inquisitor: Tell me about the Circle of Magi.

Vivienne: Of course. Tell me what you wish to know.

Inquisitor: How did we come to this state, with the Circles in revolt?

Vivienne: You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment. Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of magic. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers. Across Thedas, a new tangible fear of magic grew. Commoners and nobles alike called out to the Chantry for protection. But the malcontents in the towers thought nothing of this. They cared only for themselves and their anger at the new Templar restrictions. When a mage attempted to assassinate Divine Justinia, again, the mages protested the investigation. The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars, sparing no thought to the fact that magic was more feared in the aftermath of these attacks than it had been since Tevinter’s day. So long as they have their freedom, they could care little for riots or angry mobs or pitting mages against each other.

--------------------

 

Note that she's calling out mages and templars both (intolerable conditions), she's simply putting more onus on the mages for being ignorant how society feels about them after two mage attacks. Which as the leader of a Circle makes sense, she'd be able to see more of the mages in action than of templars. I can imagine Cassandra or Cullen being able to regale more of the templar side, even criticising them more.

I'm fairly sure "intolerable conditions" was sarcastic.

[Icy Magebane]

Ah and the MT debates reach my bar lol

I need something strong, I think.  I'll have one of those "Shirley Templars," Monkey... xD

[ComedicSociopathy]

I really don't understand why people are claiming that Viv is some kind of race traitor because of her views expressed in that short conversation we got. She's honestly bringing up some good points in regards to the Circle not even thinking about how the nobility and peasantry are going to feel about their new independence. Also, Asunder pointedly shows us the vote for independence was by no means unanimous decision and there's probably plenty of Loyalists and Isolationists who are probably begging to return to the fold. 

 

So, yeah, really liked seeing Viv and totally perplexed by the hate she's getting. 

[Yinello]

I'm fairly sure "intolerable conditions" was sarcastic.

Didn't sound sarcastic when she said it.

[Xilizhra]

I really don't understand why people are claiming that Viv is some kind of race traitor because of her views expressed in that short conversation we got. She's honestly bringing up some good points in regards to the Circle not even thinking about how the nobility and peasantry are going to feel about their new independence. Also, Asunder pointedly shows us the vote for independence was by no means unanimous decision and there's probably plenty of Loyalists and Isolationists who are probably begging to return to the fold. 

 

So, yeah, really liked seeing Viv and totally perplexed by the hate she's getting. 

Because she's willing to throw every last mage under the templars' bus if it suits her. She doesn't give a damn about the plight of a people she escaped from by brownnosing her way into the Orlesian nobility. She's a callous, hypocritical, snobbish collaborationist.

[Nohvarr]

I have no problem with blunt and honest. I have a problem with selfish callous collaborationists.

It's selfish not to want to see 'her people' fighting against one another? It's callous for her to condemn a small group of mages for forcing everyone into a bloody war many of them did not want? I'm not seeing it.

[TheTurtle]

I really don't understand why people are claiming that Viv is some kind of race traitor because of her views expressed in that short conversation we got. She's honestly bringing up some good points in regards to the Circle not even thinking about how the nobility and peasantry are going to feel about their new independence. Also, Asunder pointedly shows us the vote for independence was by no means unanimous decision and there's probably plenty of Loyalists and Isolationists who are probably begging to return to the fold.

So, yeah, really liked seeing Viv and totally perplexed by the hate she's getting.

This 1000x I hate this notion that every mage wants to be apart from the circle and is willing to give up all the comforts they have.

[revan11exile]

If Viv wants to build a Mage Tower at Skyhold i am all for that wonder if she will let my Mage Inqusitor be a teacher that would be cool.What do you guys think?

[Xilizhra]

It's selfish not to want to see 'her people' fighting against one another? It's callous for her to condemn a small group of mages for forcing everyone into a bloody war many of them did not want? I'm not seeing it.

They wouldn't be fighting against one another if one group of mages wasn't apparently taking issue with the rest of the mages wanting to survive.

 

And it wasn't a small group; it was most of the Circle.