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[(Disgusted noise.)]

How is it immature, if you don't mind me asking? 

I think she's sweet, likeable, and attractive (at least from where I'm standing), but I think the problem with Josephine's romance is that it comes off a little two dimensional. Almost every other Bioware LI that I can think of shows a significantly different side of themselves to a lover than they do to a friend. Josephine doesn't do that. It's just more of the same. I don't need everyone to be angsty and super complicated, but I was looking forward to getting a deeper look at what makes Josephine the woman she is. Complete failure on that front. She takes social etiquette very seriously, I knew that already. She's very involved with her duties as a noble, knew that too. She doesn't want the Inquisitor to be burdened or endangered on her behalf, yep we went over that too.

 

I was also disconcerted by the "fluffiness" of her romance. I didn't need a sex scene (I'm not attracted to women), but I was hoping for more desire or at least infatuation. The whole thing literally did come off a little Disney because it was so surface level, like a story you tell to a child who doesn't actually know what it's like to be enamored with someone. Josephine and the Inquisitor came off rather passionless about each other. I don't really get that depth of emotional connection that I've gotten from other romances.

 

Obviously her writer has a certain sort of story she wanted to tell, which is fine, I just don't care for it. And it sort of sucks for me since one of the reasons I got into Bioware games was the same-sex romances, and when you combine this with Bull's Bull-ness and Sera's Sera-ness, I've only got one out of four that I enjoy playing.

[daveliam]

Posted this in the other Vivienne discussion thread, but wanted to put it here too, since I know that this debate has come up in this thread also.

 

Just found this blog post that lists all of the character descriptions from the game files.  Here's what it says about Bastien:

 

<CharacterName> Duke Bastien
  <CharacterDescription> Duke Bastien de Ghyslain is in his 80s and on his deathbed. He suffered a stroke and has been drifting in and out of consciousness for some time. His mistress, Odette, is a very powerful mage, however, and she concocts a potion that will restore his youth, hoping this will save his life. She is partially successful. He becomes younger, but it is not enough to save him in the end.

 

It calls his mistress "Odette" instead of Vivienne (perhaps that was her original character name?), but it makes her intentions pretty clear.  She's not trying to poison or kill him.  She's trying to restore his youth in hopes that it will save his life.

[Rundy Bundles]

Posted this in the other Vivienne discussion thread, but wanted to put it here too, since I know that this debate has come up in this thread also.
 
Just found this blog post that lists all of the character descriptions from the game files.  Here's what it says about Bastien:
 
<CharacterName> Duke Bastien
  <CharacterDescription> Duke Bastien de Ghyslain is in his 80s and on his deathbed. He suffered a stroke and has been drifting in and out of consciousness for some time. His mistress, Odette, is a very powerful mage, however, and she concocts a potion that will restore his youth, hoping this will save his life. She is partially successful. He becomes younger, but it is not enough to save him in the end.
 
It calls his mistress "Odette" instead of Vivienne (perhaps that was her original character name?), but it makes her intentions pretty clear.  She's not trying to poison or kill him.  She's trying to restore his youth in hopes that it will save his life.

I wish that quest was longer, or had more parts to it. I would've liked to have learnt more about Bastien and his relationship with Viv.

[Joe25]

[Rundy Bundles]

This is too cute. I kinda want to make one of them an avatar.

[Joe25]

This is too cute. I kinda want to make one of them an avatar.

I wish I could give you a link to them, but I found this on Pinterest and the poster didn't leave a link.

[MattH]

From the blog above ^ on Vivienne
"Her temper, though rarely seen, is utterly terrifying."
I'm struggling to think of an instance where she is truly rage fueled. I imagine Skyhold would be left a smoking ruin.

[Joe25]

From the blog above ^ on Vivienne
"Her temper, though rarely seen, is utterly terrifying."
I'm struggling to think of an instance where she is truly rage fueled. I imagine Skyhold would be left a smoking ruin.

To win once must feel rage, but never be controlled by it. Emotion are a tool, never weapon to be used as a sword. This is how the battle for power is fought.   

[Rundy Bundles]

Watched the "Dressing Up your Dressing Downs with Indria Varma" video again. I love it. Now I kinda wish there was something like that in the game

Link: https://m.youtube.co...h?v=3G5qKxRzkGI

[MattH]

Guys you can tint Vivienne's hat. It finally matches her outfit. Rejoice. 

[daveliam]

Guys you can tint Vivienne's hat. It finally matches her outfit. Rejoice. 

 

I like to put her in the Orlesian Mage Hat sometimes.  I think it seems like something she'd wear on a light jaunt to the Hinterlands for a dragon hunt.....

[Xilizhra]

You know, I think I'd like to befriend Vivienne on my human mage run, to see what it's like. I'm still going to free the mages and ally with the Wardens, though, so I'm not 100% sure how well it'll go.

[jlb524]

You know, I think I'd like to befriend Vivienne on my human mage run, to see what it's like. I'm still going to free the mages and ally with the Wardens, though, so I'm not 100% sure how well it'll go.

I think it's possible if you pick the right dialog. I have an unfinished pt where I believe I was on her high approval path and I allied with the mages.

Telling her "this war benefits no one" in her first convo helps and that's not necessarily "pro-Circle".

Since you are a mage, stating you want to set an example for mages (during Inquisitor speech) is another boost.

Then do her war table missions, etc.

I still need to finish a pt where I friend her, so this might not be correct.

[daveliam]

You know, I think I'd like to befriend Vivienne on my human mage run, to see what it's like. I'm still going to free the mages and ally with the Wardens, though, so I'm not 100% sure how well it'll go.

 

Honestly, as long as you don't openly contradict her by touting the virtues of a Circle-less world, you'll probably be fine.  When asked about what I'd like to see happen, I kept saying that I wanted to see the mages having more power and leadership and, like jlb said, I said held a "this war benefits no one" approach. 

 

You can easily get her high approval path without having to agree with everything she says.  I allied with the mages and the Wardens in my canon playthrough and I had high 'approval' with her.  I openly disagreed with her about Cole, as well.  I never questioned her about the wyvern heart and gave her the snowy one and I agreed with her about Cassandra being the best candidate for Divine. 

 

With all of these choices, outside of one or two comments, there was nothing condescending about her.  She was a true ally and friend.  In fact, if anything, I found Solas to be the one who was completely insufferable and snotty. 

[Xilizhra]

I do want a Circle-less world, but I also want it to be managed well. I also support Leliana for Divine. How much would this affect things?

As for Solas, literally the only point of contention I've ever had with him is over the fate of the Grey Wardens; aside from that, he's never been anything but pleasant to me.

[Fiery Phoenix]

You know, I think I'd like to befriend Vivienne on my human mage run, to see what it's like. I'm still going to free the mages and ally with the Wardens, though, so I'm not 100% sure how well it'll go.

See this post from the Leliana thread:

 

Vivienne can be rather easy to net approval without giving in to her Chantry extremism. I managed with many different options: Said the Ostwick enchanter was my mentor +5, saying the war is of no one benefit +20, told her we would need the circles again once it was all over +20, told Connor he deserved to die +5 (lol, I admit I aways resented him for Redcliffe), told Fiona she made an mistake by allying with Tevinter +5, saved the Haven people +5, made mage speech +20, finding all 3 books actually nets +20 from her, gave her the right heart +20, and drank from the well +20. Easily maxed her her approval with that.

 

I have not confirmed it, but it sounds like a feasible solution.

[daveliam]

I do want a Circle-less world, but I also want it to be managed well. I also support Leliana for Divine. How much would this affect things?

As for Solas, literally the only point of contention I've ever had with him is over the fate of the Grey Wardens; aside from that, he's never been anything but pleasant to me.

 

Well, don't be surprised if she's not open to friendship if you keep saying all of the things that she doesn't stand for.  My advice would be to take a 'neutral' approach to the conversations with her.  Don't say things that are against what your character believes, but being purposefully vague.  For example, the "This war benefits no one" line.  It's a neutral way to gain approval from her without completely rejecting an Anti-Circle belief system.  If you support Leliana for Divine, you will lose approval from her.  Again, I think there's a neutral option in that dialogue.  Why not select that with her instead?  If you want to head-canon it, just imagine that your Inquisitor is trying to outplay her in The Game in order to keep a potential political ally.

 

I'm not surprised that Solas is pleasant to you.  I would assume that as a mage and elf, you'd be on the same 'party line' as him most of the time.  He disagrees with a lot of my choices and is a total condescending snot most of the time.  I get all of the "slightly approves" notes for just exploring dialogue options and, frankly, that's the only thing that keeps me from going to 'disapproval' land with him.  He's never outwardly hostile, but he's very condescending and snotty.  It's been like that in all three of my playthroughs.  I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to him pre-game as he sounded like exactly the type of character that I wanted to meet.

[Xilizhra]

Well, don't be surprised if she's not open to friendship if you keep saying all of the things that she doesn't stand for.  My advice would be to take a 'neutral' approach to the conversations with her.  Don't say things that are against what your character believes, but being purposefully vague.  For example, the "This war benefits no one" line.  It's a neutral way to gain approval from her without completely rejecting an Anti-Circle belief system.  If you support Leliana for Divine, you will lose approval from her.  Again, I think there's a neutral option in that dialogue.  Why not select that with her instead?  If you want to head-canon it, just imagine that your Inquisitor is trying to outplay her in The Game in order to keep a potential political ally.

The thing is that I don't think Vivienne would really be against Leliana's College of Enchanters idea. I mean, it's still an orderly system in which mages are no longer abused, and it has Chantry sanction, so that would seem to check most of her boxes. I don't see why advocating something like that wouldn't work.

 

 

I'm not surprised that Solas is pleasant to you.  I would assume that as a mage and elf, you'd be on the same 'party line' as him most of the time.  He disagrees with a lot of my choices and is a total condescending snot most of the time.  I get all of the "slightly approves" notes for just exploring dialogue options and, frankly, that's the only thing that keeps me from going to 'disapproval' land with him.  He's never outwardly hostile, but he's very condescending and snotty.  It's been like that in all three of my playthroughs.  I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to him pre-game as he sounded like exactly the type of character that I wanted to meet.

He was just as pleasant to me in my qunari run, and... well, has actually never disagreed with any of my choices apart from the Wardens one. I've never detected any hints of condescension. What decisions did you make that he didn't like?

[daveliam]

The thing is that I don't think Vivienne would really be against Leliana's College of Enchanters idea. I mean, it's still an orderly system in which mages are no longer abused, and it has Chantry sanction, so that would seem to check most of her boxes. I don't see why advocating something like that wouldn't work.

 

Supporting Leliana gives you disapproval with her.  She doesn't want mages outside of a Circle.  She doesn't want Templars to cease to exist.  She doesn't want Leliana (particularly a 'steeled' Leliana) in power. 

 

He was just as pleasant to me in my qunari run, and... well, has actually never disagreed with any of my choices apart from the Wardens one. I've never detected any hints of condescension. What decisions did you make that he didn't like?

 

If you conscript the mages or support the templars in any way, you lose approval.  I've only allied with the mages once.  I don't think that the Wardens' plan was a terrible one (well, it was, but I understand why they made it) and I usually don't exile them.  I don't approve of blood magic at all.  I don't think that demons and spirits are just the same thing.  I'd rather Cole become more humanlike.  Then there are a bunch of times where I say things like, "I'll ask Cassandra and Varric too" (Solas disapproves).  "Sera deserves respect" (Solas disapproves)  "I'm just a regular person" (Solas disapproves)

[Xilizhra]

Supporting Leliana gives you disapproval with her.  She doesn't want mages outside of a Circle.  She doesn't want Templars to cease to exist.  She doesn't want Leliana (particularly a 'steeled' Leliana) in power.

Does she say anything different about steeled Leliana? As for templars... well, they've ceased to exist after Redcliffe anyway, regardless of my input.

 

 

If you conscript the mages or support the templars in any way, you lose approval.  I've only allied with the mages once.  I don't think that the Wardens' plan was a terrible one (well, it was, but I understand why they made it) and I usually don't exile them.  I don't approve of blood magic at all.  I don't think that demons and spirits are just the same thing.  I'd rather Cole become more humanlike.  Then there are a bunch of times where I say things like, "I'll ask Cassandra and Varric too" (Solas disapproves).  "Sera deserves respect" (Solas disapproves)  "I'm just a regular person" (Solas disapproves)

When does "Sera deserves respect" come up? Also, Solas does approve if you conscript the templars (and I consider paths that aren't allying with the mages to be jerkassery anyway, but I suppose we differ there; I can hardly blame Solas for disapproving, however).

[Sarielle]

Does she say anything different about steeled Leliana? As for templars... well, they've ceased to exist after Redcliffe anyway, regardless of my input.

 

 

When does "Sera deserves respect" come up? Also, Solas does approve if you conscript the templars (and I consider paths that aren't allying with the mages to be jerkassery anyway, but I suppose we differ there; I can hardly blame Solas for disapproving, however).

 

Just curious ... do you ever pick options that are not what you, the person, would choose? If not, you're missing out on a lot of content and getting a very warped view of both the situation and some of the characters.

[Xilizhra]

Just curious ... do you ever pick options that are not what you, the person, would choose? If not, you're missing out on a lot of content and getting a very warped view of both the situation and some of the characters.

Not really, no. Sometimes I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the best option is, but I can't pick something that isn't that.

[Sarielle]

Not really, no. Sometimes I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the best option is, but I can't pick something that isn't that.

 

Huh. No "what if"? scenarios? Doesn't that lead to basically playing the same character in a different skin all the time? How do you ever make it through more than a couple of playthroughs? I'd get so bored

 

In that case, I definitely urge what was suggested up there -- at the very least, take a more neutral tone. You don't even have to pretend you agree, but maybe pretend you school even Josephine at the diplomatic game/want to preserve team unity/etc.

 

Imo, it's a little unfair to wholly criticize certain characters/wholly praise others when you've never seen anything other than their best or worst side. How people handle adversity, trust/affection tells us a lot about them.

 

EDIT: For instance, I plan a Tal-Vashoth mage playthrough at some point -- a very "eff controlling mages, eff organized religion" type. I'm pretty sure she and Vivienne will have no common ground at all, despite the fact that I like Vivienne as a player (and have done a pro-Circle, pro-Chantry playthrough where they were besties). It's fun to see Thedas through different eyes, imo.

[Xilizhra]

Huh. No "what if"? scenarios? Doesn't that lead to basically playing the same character in a different skin all the time? How do you ever make it through more than a couple of playthroughs? I'd get so bored

 

In that case, I definitely urge what was suggested up there -- at the very least, take a more neutral tone. You don't even have to pretend you agree, but maybe pretend you school even Josephine at the diplomatic game/want to preserve team unity/etc.

 

Imo, it's a little unfair to wholly criticize certain characters/wholly praise others when you've never seen anything other than their best or worst side. How people handle adversity, trust/affection tells us a lot about them.

Mostly because I actually feel rather pained when I do something that I don't believe in. Even the idea of playing Champions of the Just makes me feel slightly ill, to say nothing of, say, siding with the templars in DA2. I want to believe in my own characters.

[Sarielle]

Mostly because I actually feel rather pained when I do something that I don't believe in. Even the idea of playing Champions of the Just makes me feel slightly ill, to say nothing of, say, siding with the templars in DA2. I want to believe in my own characters.

 

Bah, then you just need to create a strong idea of who a character is from the start -- and stick with that. It's easier if you have a defined concept from the start. (I understand your issue a little ... I have a difficult time playing rude characters, which is a little silly, l know, lol.)

 

But one doesn't, for instance, have to believe the Templars/Circles are all that to do Champions of the Just. Maybe your Quizzy wants to control them, to limit their potential abuses. Maybe mages did something terrible to their family, and they start out prejudiced -- but come to change their mind over the course of the game and in particular due what happens during Champions of the Just. (Character growth is good!) My elf Quizzy who finds the Circles terribly flawed chose the Templars because the Inquisition's reputation was pretty crap at that point -- AND it's led by a Dalish -- and that was a good way to win some respectability. That's just three quick examples off the top of my head.

 

There's also a great chance to roleplay either finding faith or losing it, depending on how your character starts out viewing the Chantry (assuming no other race's religion is followed ... although heck, you could be a convert too I guess).