5943 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

Huh. I'll have to pair Cole and Vivi more after we meet Morrigan. I'm curious now.

 

I don't disagree that Vivienne is self-serving. I definitely think she wants to be at the top of the food chain. I just also think that she really believes a reformed Circle is the best compromise -- again, with her at the head of it.

She is anger at Morrigan for "taking" her place, a place she worked hard to get, but it was only in her head, Celene respects her and didnt wanted for her to leave. But like always, Xil likes to make Vivienne looks like a cartoon villain.

http://youtu.be/b0zNyv_WdH0?t=1h49m16s

 

And you definetely should pair Cole with Vivienne, she gives you a valuable insight of her, I really like that she would never resort to blood magic and considers the preactice a weakness. She is a very well written characters, but her opinions and her demeanor to people who goes against her views, make a lot people not appreciate a good character.

[Sarielle]

And you definetely should pair Cole with Vivienne, she gives you a valuable insight of her, I really like that she would never resort to blood magic and considers the preactice a weakness. She is a very well written characters, but her opinions and her demeanor to people who goes against her views, make a lot people not appreciate a good character.

 

Yeah, Cole is interesting to put with pretty much any character, if you want to know what really makes them tick. I had put them together a fair bit, but I guess not after the Winter Palace bit. Or it was during the playthrough where I got very little banter =/

 

And thanks for the link

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 The accusation that Vivienne is only out for her own power and does not truly believe in the Circle or any such thing is not new, and, is no less silly now than it ever was previously. Vivienne may be an elitist, but that does not preclude her from having strong convictions in things other than herself. If I did not know better, I would think that certain elements feel threatened by seeing mages that support the Circle and want to find some way to believe it is not real, just like Anders did with my pro-Templar mage Hawke.

[Xilizhra]

 The accusation that Vivienne is only out for her own power and does not truly believe in the Circle or any such thing is not new, and, is no less silly now than it ever was previously. Vivienne may be an elitist, but that does not preclude her from having strong convictions in things other than herself. If I did not know better, I would think that certain elements feel threatened by seeing mages that support the Circle and want to find some way to believe it is not real, just like Anders did with my pro-Templar mage Hawke.

Why would I be threatened? We've won. But I've never seen any real evidence that Vivienne does, in fact, have genuine convictions unrelated to herself.

[kalasaurus]

And you definetely should pair Cole with Vivienne, she gives you a valuable insight of her, I really like that she would never resort to blood magic and considers the preactice a weakness. She is a very well written characters, but her opinions and her demeanor to people who goes against her views, make a lot people not appreciate a good character.

Vivienne strongly disliked my pro-mage freedom elf and even triggered the furniture rearranging scene once they arrived at Skyhold.  Oddly enough, despite my elf not faltering in her convictions or saying what she wanted to hear, by the end Vivienne admitted she misjudged her and gave her an enchanted ring.  Before the final battle, the balcony scene triggered and Vivienne said she considered my elf a friend.  All my elf did was remain polite to her despite everything. *shrugs*

[daveliam]

Why would I be threatened? We've won. But I've never seen any real evidence that Vivienne does, in fact, have genuine convictions unrelated to herself.

 

Is it wrong that this post makes me want to go do a full-on Pro-Circle, Pro-Templar playthrough.....?

 

Also, we've given you numerous pieces of evidence that she has genuine convictions unrelated to herself.  We've done it in this thread, in other threads, in PMs, etc. 

[TheTurtle]

I really liked talking with Vivienne as a human mage, I feel like it added an extra layer to the friendship.

[Boost32]

Is it wrong that this post makes me want to go do a full-on Pro-Circle, Pro-Templar playthrough.....?

You should do it because its fun, templars quest and Calpernia are better then mages quest and Samson IMO.

Also, we've given you numerous pieces of evidence that she has genuine convictions unrelated to herself. We've done it in this thread, in other threads, in PMs, etc.

You should just ignore her, its pointless to discuss with her, she is not going to change

[Excella Gionne]

She can relate more to a mage and vice versa. If you're not a mage, it's difficult to agree with her and have her approve of you. Same goes for Sera, but minus the need to be a particular class. 

[daveliam]

She can relate more to a mage and vice versa. If you're not a mage, it's difficult to agree with her and have her approve of you. Same goes for Sera, but minus the need to be a particular class. 

 

I've never played a mage, so I might be wrong on this.  But my interpretation is that it has less to do with your class and more to do with your views on the mage-templar war and Circles in general.  I've always gotten along very well with her despite playing solely as warriors and rogues.  And it sounds like Anti-Circle, Pro-Rebellion mages don't get on well with her at all.

[TheTurtle]

I've never played a mage, so I might be wrong on this. But my interpretation is that it has less to do with your class and more to do with your views on the mage-templar war and Circles in general. I've always gotten along very well with her despite playing solely as warriors and rogues. And it sounds like Anti-Circle, Pro-Rebellion mages don't get on well with her at all.

They don't, in fact I'd go as far as saying that choosing options like that as a mage annoys her even more than doing it with warrior or rouge. Being Pro-Circle as a mage can net you a bit more approval especially as a human who can talk about the Ostwick circle in a positive light.

[Rundy Bundles]

They don't, in fact I'd go as far as saying that choosing options like that as a mage annoys her even more than doing it with warrior or rouge. Being Pro-Circle as a mage can net you a bit more approval especially as a human who can talk about the Ostwick circle in a positive light.

Senior Enchanter Lydia ;-;7

[TheTurtle]

Senior Enchanter Lydia ;-;7

That convo makes me sad. I had it right before going the Gull and Lantern where Linnea bitches about your relationship with her.

[Sarielle]

But I've never seen any real evidence that Vivienne does, in fact, have genuine convictions unrelated to herself.

 

But we do, and we've covered that several times in that other Vivienne thread you participated in. You've not given any evidence that her convictions aren't genuine, though.

 

You should just ignore her, its pointless to discuss with her, she is not going to change

 

I'm still not sure if she's trying to convince us or herself, though. That's expending a heck of a lot of energy to convince somebody your dislike of a character is justified.

 

Which is funny because, as has been pointed out many times before also, Vivienne has plenty of real flaws. I think people know on some level that "I dislike somebody personally strictly because they disagree with me on something" is ... not good, and so seek to find other reasons to justify the hate instead of examining their motivations.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 So I was just checking out the 'Keep tapestry and happened upon the Divine election tiles. Cass is not there at the moment, but Leliana and Vivienne's are up.

 

Cassandra and Leliana are widely seen as the "reform" candidates as Divine, whilst Vivienne is seen as conservative and a status-quo candidate. To my (very pleasant) surprise, however, the Keep summary of Vivienne's tile emphasizes how her election to Divine sets a new precedent, offers "a fresh perspective" and says nothing to the effect of things staying the same.

 

I am very happy to see this. I always felt like Vivienne was plenty reform-minded in her own right, just that her ideas and methods of reform are more... elegant, than those of the other two. Though, I suppose we should have expected as much from a seasoned player of The Game.

[AresKeith]

Is it wrong that this post makes me want to go do a full-on Pro-Circle, Pro-Templar playthrough.....?

Also, we've given you numerous pieces of evidence that she has genuine convictions unrelated to herself. We've done it in this thread, in other threads, in PMs, etc.

That's why I generally ignore Xil when she goes on bs

[daveliam]

 So I was just checking out the 'Keep tapestry and happened upon the Divine election tiles. Cass is not there at the moment, but Leliana and Vivienne's are up.

 

Cassandra and Leliana are widely seen as the "reform" candidates as Divine, whilst Vivienne is seen as conservative and a status-quo candidate. To my (very pleasant) surprise, however, the Keep summary of Vivienne's tile emphasizes how her election to Divine sets a new precedent, offers "a fresh perspective" and says nothing to the effect of things staying the same.

 

I am very happy to see this. I always felt like Vivienne was plenty reform-minded in her own right, just that her ideas and methods of reform are more... elegant, than those of the other two. Though, I suppose we should have expected as much from a seasoned player of The Game.

 

I think that the tiles unlock as you unlock them in your playthroughs, although some of those are not loading correctly.  If Cassandra isn't up as an option, it's likely because you didn't get her ending yet or you did, but it's glitched/delayed in uploading.

 

I've always all three of them as 'reform' candidates.  I think Vivienne's reforms are just as 'liberal' as Cassandra's.  Obviously Leliana's reforms are the most liberal of them all, but I see Cass and VIvienne as both offering 'moderate' reforms, just with different foci.  But maybe that's because I prefer both of them over Leliana's reforms anyway.

[Xilizhra]

Is it wrong that this post makes me want to go do a full-on Pro-Circle, Pro-Templar playthrough.....?

 

Also, we've given you numerous pieces of evidence that she has genuine convictions unrelated to herself.  We've done it in this thread, in other threads, in PMs, etc. 

May I elaborate, then? Vivienne's greatest fear is irrelevance, and I think that that's quite telling. If order for mages and the world was really what drove her in the same way that, for instance, Cassandra's devotion to Andraste drives her or Blackwall's desire to escape his past drives him, then wouldn't her fear be related in some way to losing that, or of something that the Circle could stop (such as how Iron Bull's tenuous tie to the Qun is justified mostly by his fear of madness)? Instead, her fear is about her personal status, of somehow becoming unimportant; the reaction that other people have to her socially.

I shouldn't say that her belief in the Circle is insincere, not precisely. But I do believe it to be somewhat peripheral to her truer, deeper motivations.

 

 

I'm still not sure if she's trying to convince us or herself, though. That's expending a heck of a lot of energy to convince somebody your dislike of a character is justified.

 

Which is funny because, as has been pointed out many times before also, Vivienne has plenty of real flaws. I think people know on some level that "I dislike somebody personally strictly because they disagree with me on something" is ... not good, and so seek to find other reasons to justify the hate instead of examining their motivations.

I have examined my motivations. I originally did hate her solely because of what I considered a deeply immoral political stance. I've only started coming to these conclusions relatively recently, after I'd decided to try pursuing friendship with her.

[Sarielle]

I have examined my motivations. I originally did hate her solely because of what I considered a deeply immoral political stance. I've only started coming to these conclusions relatively recently, after I'd decided to try pursuing friendship with her.

 

Well, OK, but saying stuff like "she hates apostates she can't kill out of hand" and this:

 

I've never seen any real evidence that Vivienne does, in fact, have genuine convictions unrelated to herself.

 

... doesn't really fit, then? Otherwise you're essentially saying she supports Circles only because it bolsters her own power -- and if that's where you're going with it, I don't see it/don't see evidence of that.

 

From banter with Cole, we can tell she had a very bad experience with demons -- perhaps coming close to possession herself? Vivi does have a high opinion of herself, so I think it's logical that she'd consider any mage at risk for that -- thus her stance that Templars, "flawed though they may be," are necessary. That she thinks formal Circle training is necessary. That she thinks a reformed Circle -- remember, mages do have more freedom and responsibility than ever before with her as Divine -- is the proper compromise between freedom and safety.

 

What do you think, specifically, suggests the opposite? I'm willing to entertain the notion, but you gotta give me something.

[Xilizhra]

Well, OK, but saying stuff like "she hates apostates she can't kill out of hand" and this:

 

 

... doesn't really fit, then? Otherwise you're essentially saying she supports Circles only because it bolsters her own power -- and if that's where you're going with it, I don't see it/don't see evidence of that.

 

From banter with Cole, we can tell she had a very bad experience with demons -- perhaps coming close to possession herself? Vivi does have a high opinion of herself, so I think it's logical that she'd consider any mage at risk for that -- thus her stance that Templars, "flawed though they may be," are necessary. That she thinks formal Circle training is necessary. That she thinks a reformed Circle -- remember, mages do have more freedom and responsibility than ever before with her as Divine -- is the proper compromise between freedom and safety.

 

What do you think, specifically, suggests the opposite? I'm willing to entertain the notion, but you gotta give me something.

I think we agree on a lot of premises, I just think that some of the specifics are different. I think a lot of it goes back to fear, and Vivienne's desire to be exceptional. I do believe that she's probably sincere about much of what she says about the Circle, but those things aren't her core motivations.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, well, look at the statistics for who became Divine:

 

Who Became the Next Divine? http://www.strawpoll.me/3269183

[TheTurtle]

Well, well, look at the statistics for who became Divine:

 

Who Became the Next Divine? http://www.strawpoll.me/3269183

That was unexpected.

 

/s 

[Steelcan]

Well, well, look at the statistics for who became Divine:

 

Who Became the Next Divine? http://www.strawpoll.me/3269183

once again, not exactly representative of the game as a whole, I can make a poll on Stormfront about whether minorities are a blight upon society, and I doubt its gonna be indicative of any nation wide trends

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I never did care for the most popular outcomes among this fanbase, anyway. Not sure what the issue is. Too many children, maybe?

[Xilizhra]

 I never did care for the most popular outcomes among this fanbase, anyway. Not sure what the issue is. Too many children, maybe?

So in your world, it's the children who get **** done?