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[Sarielle]

What does it matter? They're not going to leave the Inquisition's protection; everything's safe.

 

? If you free them, they're under no obligation to stay, and why would she trust Fiona to start making smart decisions?

[Xilizhra]

? If you free them, they're under no obligation to stay, and why would she trust Fiona to start making smart decisions?

Because they have nowhere else to go, which is the whole point of the final scene at Redcliffe. The Inquisition is by far the safest place for them.

[Sarielle]

Because they have nowhere else to go, which is the whole point of the final scene at Redcliffe. The Inquisition is by far the safest place for them.

 

While I don't disagree, Redcliffe was super defensible too. And we saw how Fiona reacted to a little adversity there (the Templars weren't actually even marching on them, right? I admit I'm hazy on the details of that). Besides, there is the future to think of, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect Fiona would pull a stunt later, when she no longer feels threatened or gets a bee in her bonnet about ... something.

[Xilizhra]

While I don't disagree, Redcliffe was super defensible too. And we saw how Fiona reacted to a little adversity there (the Templars weren't actually even marching on them, right? I admit I'm hazy on the details of that). Besides, there is the future to think of, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect Fiona would pull a stunt later, when she no longer feels threatened or gets a bee in her bonnet about ... something.

The templars were, actually. I think that was right before Envy's order to pull back to Val Royeaux, and the Hinterlands are littered with templars who disobeyed. And at the exact same time, Alexius used his time magic to appear and pull off his shenanigans with the rebels; even after it was clear the major templar attack wasn't coming, it was too late.

Also, Redcliffe Castle was super-defensible, not the town itself, and there's no indication that the rebellion was allowed into the castle. And what "stunt" would she try? I aim to free the mages in any case.

[Sarielle]

Also, Redcliffe Castle was super-defensible, not the town itself, and there's no indication that the rebellion was allowed into the castle. And what "stunt" would she try? I aim to free the mages in any case.

 

It doesn't seem she even approached the arl? And I don't know what stunt she'd try. Her track record just does not inspire confidence, lol. I'd honestly feel better if there were clear evidence of blood magic mind manipulation, but we don't have that. The Inquisitor has to make a snap decision based on what she's seen, so my libertarian would rather be safe than sorry. She's among the Inquisition's leaders, after all; it's not like freedom is off the table, and we aren't lead to believe they're treated poorly under the Inquisition.

 

I looked at it as a, "You go sit in the corner, Fiona, while I figure out a way to fix your mess" type move.

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't seem she even approached the arl? And I don't know what stunt she'd try. Her track record just does not inspire confidence, lol. I'd honestly feel better if there were clear evidence of blood magic mind manipulation, but we don't have that. The Inquisitor has to make a snap decision based on what she's seen, so my libertarian would rather be safe than sorry. She's among the Inquisition's leaders, after all; it's not like freedom is off the table, and we aren't lead to believe they're treated poorly under the Inquisition.

 

I looked at it as a, "You go sit in the corner, Fiona, while I figure out a way to fix your mess" type move.

In the original timeline, who knows? In the altered timeline, Alexius jumped in before any other approach could be made.

And I consider indenturing the mages to be outright evil, the most evil way of solving this quest. I consider allying with the templars to be irresponsible and wooly-headed, but still not as bad.

[TEWR]

The player eliminated both things that kept the Templars in check. Not sure who would think that was a good idea.

 

I do like that Vivienne's election to Divine is not so easily accepted and that certain things have to go right that make the difference between it being received well or poorly. That alone makes it hundreds of times more sensible than Leliana's ending, which simply checks to see if you did a quest.

 

Vivienne's shouldn't have even been possible in the first place, because it's bound to collapse upon itself regardless of how well she does. Not only would Tevinter go absolutely crazy at the thought of the White Chantry now putting a mage in place (they'd be ecstatic) and possibly even calling them out for hypocrisy, but they'd try and use it for their benefit

 

Moreover, it's bound to create a lot of political grappling where Mages will now try and claim the seat of the Divine because, hey, someone else managed to get there. It won't matter who Vivienne names as her successor, Mages are still going to cause chaos.

 

Not that I disagree that Leliana's ending is wholly unfeasible. But Vivienne's shouldn't have been possible either. Hell, it's also rather mind-boggling that the Grand Clerics of the Chantry (the ones that didn't die, and those who ended up succeeding their predecessors who did die) united behind Vivienne.... only to end up trying to rebel out from under her.

 

Cassandra is really the only person as Divine who makes sense, but to be honest the person who really should've been made Divine from a narrative standpoint was Mother Giselle.

 

Am I the only one who was kind of... bored by Fiona?

 

Well, it doesn't help that after you recruit her the game/devs put her off to the side.

 

That actually annoyed me. Along with the whole "you don't get insight into Corypheus if you side with the Mages" BS.

[Sarielle]

In the original timeline, who knows? In the altered timeline, Alexius jumped in before any other approach could be made.

And I consider indenturing the mages to be outright evil, the most evil way of solving this quest. I consider allying with the templars to be irresponsible and wooly-headed, but still not as bad.

 

 

It's funny, because the first time I did it I had my pro-freedom mage and was all geared to ally with the mages. And all I could think of was, "damnit guys, really??!" when I found out what had gone down.

 

I think "evil" is way too strong a word. They'd already indentured themselves to Tevinter, ensuring the common man could not hate/fear mages more; and they proved that left to their own devices, they'll ally with blood mages when threatened (obviously not all mages, but the rebellion leadership). All signs point to "we cannot govern ourselves responsibly," (under Fiona, at least) which not only threatens the average joe but screws it up for mages who actually ARE responsible.

 

Even from a pro-mage freedom perspective, indenturing them means they can't dig themselves -- and all other mages -- into an even deeper hole. It's damage control.

 

EDIT: And Alexius showing up on the doorstep somehow prevented her from going, "OK, well, I appreciate the offer, but I really think the Arl of this place we're living deserves to be in on this dicussion"?

 

EDIT EDIT: Mother Giselle for divine And for what it's worth, Cassandra was my first Divine, not Vivienne.

[Xilizhra]

Vivienne's shouldn't have even been possible in the first place, because it's bound to collapse upon itself regardless of how well she does. Not only would Tevinter go absolutely crazy at the thought of the White Chantry now putting a mage in place (they'd be ecstatic) and possibly even calling them out for hypocrisy, but they'd try and use it for their benefit

 

Moreover, it's bound to create a lot of political grappling where Mages will now try and claim the seat of the Divine because, hey, someone else managed to get there. It won't matter who Vivienne names as her successor, Mages are still going to cause chaos.

 

Not that I disagree that Leliana's ending is wholly unfeasible. But Vivienne's shouldn't have been possible either. Hell, it's also rather mind-boggling that the Grand Clerics of the Chantry (the ones that didn't die, and those who ended up succeeding their predecessors who did die) united behind Vivienne.... only to end up trying to rebel out from under her.

 

Cassandra is really the only person as Divine who makes sense, but to be honest the person who really should've been made Divine from a narrative standpoint was Mother Giselle.

Mother Giselle is chaff. And Cassandra is too much of a blunt instrument for me to really trust as a good leader. I think that Leliana will do just fine.

 

 

It's funny, because the first time I did it I had my pro-freedom mage and was all geared to ally with the mages. And all I could think of was, "damnit guys, really??!" when I found out what had gone down.

 

I think "evil" is way too strong a word. They'd already indentured themselves to Tevinter, ensuring the common man could not hate/fear mages more; and they proved that left to their own devices, they'll ally with blood mages when threatened (obviously not all mages, but the rebellion leadership). All signs point to "we cannot govern ourselves responsibly," (under Fiona, at least) which not only threatens the average joe but screws it up for mages who actually ARE responsible.

 

Even from a pro-mage freedom perspective, indenturing them means they can't dig themselves -- and all other mages -- into an even deeper hole. It's damage control.

 

EDIT: And Alexius showing up on the doorstep somehow prevented her from going, "OK, well, I appreciate the offer, but I really think the Arl of this place we're living deserves to be in on this dicussion"?

 

EDIT EDIT: Mother Giselle for divine And for what it's worth, Cassandra was my first Divine, not Vivienne.

I don't think that "evil" is too strong at all, since you're punishing everyone for the crimes of a few. Just like the templars. And they can't do any more damage even as allies of the Inquisition.

 

Though I will admit that I'm considering playing Champions of the Just and conscripting the templars, to see what would happen. Is it a guarantee that everyone in the mage rebellion would be doomed, though, or could any be saved from the Venatori?

[Sarielle]

Though I will admit that I'm considering playing Champions of the Just and conscripting the templars, to see what would happen. Is it a guarantee that everyone in the mage rebellion would be doomed, though, or could any be saved from the Venatori?

 

Now you're lumping all the Templars together just like you accuse them of doing to the mages. And it's hardly punishment to save people from trainwreck leadership getting them into potentially even worse trouble. You can still pursue College of Mages/Leliana as a Divine.

 

If you do Champions of the Just, you have the option to still save mages via the wartable missions, at least if Ser Barris lives (don't recall otherwise). Including saving mages who had fellow mages try to kill them for daring to consider going with the Templars to the Inquisition. Seriously, do it at least once. Get a broader perspective.

[Xilizhra]

Now you're lumping all the Templars together just like you accuse them of doing to the mages. And it's hardly punishment to save people from trainwreck leadership getting them into potentially even worse trouble. You can still pursue College of Mages/Leliana as a Divine.

I'm not locking them up, I'm dissolving the organization because of its heinous track record. That's where the conscription options differ.

 

 

If you do Champions of the Just, you have the option to still save mages via the wartable missions, at least if Ser Barris lives (don't recall otherwise). Including saving mages who had fellow mages try to kill them for daring to consider going with the Templars to the Inquisition. Seriously, do it at least once. Get a broader perspective.

Do these appear even if the templars are conscripted? Because that last one you mentioned would make no sense, given that the Templar Order no longer exists.

[TEWR]

Mother Giselle is chaff. And Cassandra is too much of a blunt instrument for me to really trust as a good leader. I think that Leliana will do just fine.

 

 

I don't particularly care for everything Giselle does or says, but she's at least an honorable and good-natured woman who understands the failings of the Chantry and how best to rectify them.

 

Leliana pulls the block out from the metaphorical Jenga tower. Good motives behind what she's doing, but there's noooo way it could feasibly work as just "Let's be good to one another" like Bioware did.

 

Which isn't to say Leliana as Divine can't work, but it requires a lot more then just accepting Bioware's "It works, trust us" motif. And especially considering her character was given a shitty-ass extreme treatment in game that has been pointed out to operate on a completely arbitrary system of rules that define which end of the spectrum she falls on.

 

As for Cassandra, I see her as holding a lot of the features needed. Despite her brash nature that she herself admits she has, she is firm and resolute in what she believes and understands that the Chantry needs to change. She wouldn't just sit around on the Sunburst Throne while she's pampered. That's not a life she has ever had much adoration for. She would go out and be amongst the people.

 

Not that I ever put her on the ST as Divine, given Nasir is romancing her and Josephine and has plans to have her take her place on the Nevarran Throne. But Cass as Divine is good for Thedas.

 

EDIT: And Alexius showing up on the doorstep somehow prevented her from going, "OK, well, I appreciate the offer, but I really think the Arl of this place we're living deserves to be in on this dicussion"?

 

 

The fact that Teagan didn't realize a Tevinter Magister had shown up in the first place shows his incompetence. 

 

Though I think you're being unduly harsh towards Fiona, for reasons I'll state after I eat dinner and get situated.

[Sarielle]

I'm not locking them up, I'm dissolving the organization because of its heinous track record. That's where the conscription options differ.

 

 

Do these appear even if the templars are conscripted? Because that last one you mentioned would make no sense, given that the Templar Order no longer exists.

 

You don't lock the mages up if conscripted either? I don't understand.

 

And yes, even if the Templars are conscripted. They still ask to be allowed to fulfill their original purpose -- which included protecting mages.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne's shouldn't have even been possible in the first place, because it's bound to collapse upon itself regardless of how well she does. Not only would Tevinter go absolutely crazy at the thought of the White Chantry now putting a mage in place (they'd be ecstatic) and possibly even calling them out for hypocrisy, but they'd try and use it for their benefit

I fail to see how they would benefit from a pro-Circle mage being the Divine.
 

Moreover, it's bound to create a lot of political grappling where Mages will now try and claim the seat of the Divine because, hey, someone else managed to get there. It won't matter who Vivienne names as her successor, Mages are still going to cause chaos.

Not sure how you logically got from A to B here - ?

Vivienne reinstates the Circle, so the solution to mages causing chaos is obvious.

Also, causing chaos did not earn Vivienne her position. She got there by proving herself valuable and dependable. If Vivienne's election inspires other mages to follow her lead, well... good. That, IMO, is kind of how the Circle should be working anyway -- promote the good mages, leash the baddies. I've long felt that there should be a little more boon for the good ones, which is why I am a big fan of her epilogue.
 

but to be honest the person who really should've been made Divine from a narrative standpoint was Mother Giselle.

 

NEVER THAT!!

[TEWR]

Conscripting either side is treating them as being merely a military force and ultimately expendable (not imprisoning them). The difference is that one side was a military force to begin with, while the other side was a military force on extremely rare circumstances but also has children and the elderly amongst them.

[TEWR]

I fail to see how they would benefit from a pro-Circle mage being the Divine.

 

 

Tevinter is pro-Circle as well. They don't believe Mages can or should go without training. They're just very loose about restrictions employed on Mages.

 

But think of how they could spin it, regardless of Vivienne's policies. Think of what they could do with it. Hell, think of how the people of White-Chantry Thedas will spin it. People rarely employ logic when they see something they can't stand. They'll see a Mage on the Sunburst Throne and think it a Tevinter plot, regardless of Vivienne's policies.

 

As far as the common folk will see, a Mage is on the throne. A mage is unacceptable to them, after centuries of being told that magic is sinful and to be feared. Worse, as sensible as Vivienne's crushing of the rebellions that will spring up may be, I see this as putting them behind the curtains to take place rather then out in the open AND causing the people of Thedas to look at her with scorn for a perceived "ruthlessness".

 

Not sure how you logically got from A to B here - ?

Vivienne reinstates the Circle, so the solution to mages causing chaos is obvious.

Also, causing chaos did not earn Vivienne her position. She got there by proving herself valuable and dependable. If Vivienne's election inspires other mages to follow her lead, well... good. That, IMO, is kind of how the Circle should be working anyway -- promote the good mages, leash the baddies. I've long felt that there should be a little more boon for the good ones, which is why I am a big fan of her epilogue.
 

 

 

And you don't think other Mages in the Circles, in the Libertarian fraternities for instance, would look at the fact that a Mage ascended to the throne and believe they can too? Vivienne isn't just getting there through determination, she's getting there through connections. This will put more Mages into politics and lead to a lot of good, yes, but also a lot of bad. The Mages will fight with one another behind closed doors because they want what Vivienne's position has now shown as being possible. They will, at best, only follow her example as far as other people see them, but keep their agendas hidden.

 

Whatever good Vivienne does won't last. It will unravel at the seams because it opened up the floodbanks. Moreover, Tevinter could use this as a means to gain control of the White-Chantry if they're smart, by putting a bunch of agents within the nations outside of Tevinter.

 

And I never said causing chaos earned Vivienne her position. What I said is that Vivienne's position will lead to chaos in the years to come. Vivienne could name a normal priest as her successor, but I doubt that would go over smoothly as the Mages will try and get what Vivienne showed as being possible.

 

Just as bad, the Templars are going to get off lyrium apparently if she's named Divine -- though I suspect this is not exactly restricted to just her ending -- which is.... well, look at Tevinter. No Templars who use lyrium, bound to the Chantry's will with a tight leash, used as political lapdogs. Vivienne's replicating what's going on in Tevinter, whether she realizes it or not. Her reign may well be fine, but it's the future that's going to be the real problem.

 

It's a bloodbath in the making. Vivienne is at best a short-term solution (short-term in the sense of her reign being at best fifty years) while Cassandra is the long-term solution. Leliana is the really short-term solution.

 

EDIT: Additionally, one of Vivienne's endings has her reign troubled and fractured, with the potential to split apart yet again.

[Sarielle]

Just as bad, the Templars are going to get off lyrium apparently if she's named Divine -- though I suspect this is not exactly restricted to just her ending -- which is.... well, look at Tevinter. No Templars who use lyrium, bound to the Chantry's will with a tight leash, used as political lapdogs. Vivienne's replicating what's going on in Tevinter, whether she realizes it or not. Her reign may well be fine, but it's the future that's going to be the real problem.

 

Oooooh. I never considered the no-lyrium parallel to Tevinter. Dang. Neat

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This is the part where I advocate for the mages.

All people under the impression I am anti-mage, take note.

 

Tevinter is pro-Circle as well. They don't believe Mages can or should go without training. They're just very loose about restrictions employed on Mages.

And a mage as Divine is not the difference between tight or loose restrictions, especially not this Divine.

As to a mage using the position to loosen restrictions ... that can be true of any Divine, mage or no (at which point, the door is open to them taking the position for themselves). By the sounds of it, Justinia was one of these people. That was at a time before any reforms took place.

 

But think of how they could spin it, regardless of Vivienne's policies. Think of what they could do with it. Hell, think of how the people of White-Chantry Thedas will spin it. People rarely employ logic when they see something they can't stand. They'll see a Mage on the Sunburst Throne and think it a Tevinter plot, regardless of Vivienne's policies.

I did think about it. I am at a loss. I was hoping you would help me out.
 

As far as the common folk will see, a Mage is on the throne. A mage is unacceptable to them, after centuries of being told that magic is sinful and to be feared. Worse, as sensible as Vivienne's crushing of the rebellions that will spring up may be, I see this as putting them behind the curtains to take place rather then out in the open AND causing the people of Thedas to look at her with scorn for a perceived "ruthlessness".

The epilogue addressed that: some folks rose up in response to her election, she crushed it, and then her reign as Divine gave them nothing more to gripe about.

 

In fact, it sounds like the dissidents realized their folly when she reinstated the Circles and backed off for good after that.

 

And you don't think other Mages in the Circles, in the Libertarian fraternities for instance, would look at the fact that a Mage ascended to the throne and believe they can too? Vivienne isn't just getting there through determination, she's getting there through connections. This will put more Mages into politics and lead to a lot of good, yes, but also a lot of bad. The Mages will fight with one another behind closed doors because they want what Vivienne's position has now shown as being possible. They will, at best, only follow her example as far as other people see them, but keep their agendas hidden.

 

That is what the Circle is there for.

 

If a mage is of good enough character to earn the approval of leaving -- both from an Enchanter and Templar Knight-Commander -- then they are free to do so and pursue whatever. Libertarians included. In fact, it would be a worthwhile test to the Circle system. If the Circle is functioning properly, then there will be little-to-no traction for any major libertarian movement to get moving. If it is not, or could use more work, then they are welcome to contribute any better ideas they may have.
 
I think the risk of an occasional bad mage in politics is one that should be accepted in favor of what the good ones can contribute. I mean, a mundane can abuse his/her position too, can they not? Now, I realize that a mage has the potential to be worse since they can add foul magic on top of anything else. However, this just goes back to the need for a strong Circle. A mage will first need to prove that they can be trusted not to turn to the dark arts (an expectation that is never reinforced in Tevinter with any actual punishment) before they can go free. If they break this trust at a later time, send the Templars to remove them from society until further notice.
 

All roads lead to the Circle.

 

Just as bad, the Templars are going to get off lyrium apparently if she's named Divine -- though I suspect this is not exactly restricted to just her ending -- which is.... well, look at Tevinter. No Templars who use lyrium, bound to the Chantry's will with a tight leash, used as political lapdogs. Vivienne's replicating what's going on in Tevinter, whether she realizes it or not. Her reign may well be fine, but it's the future that's going to be the real problem.
 
EDIT: Additionally, one of Vivienne's endings has her reign troubled and fractured, with the potential to split apart yet again.

Which, as I said, is a nice dynamic to that epilogue. A mage Divine can be a failed experiment, or a well-orchestrated reform (the player did what was needed to make it work out alright). As to the Templar thing, yeah, it is tied to Cullen's lyrium use/non-use, and is part of every ending.

Just because Tevinter leashes the Templars does not make it bad. They do need to be reigned in a little (just not to the Tevinter extreme). If lyrium is not going to be a thing, then vigilant Seekers should be.

[Xilizhra]

Or, we can just go for the College instead.

 

Also, I started Champions of the Just, but don't have the strength to finish it. After comparing them, I've decided that the story works better when the Venatori, a subtler organization whose members very often work within mundane society as infiltrators, are the first agents of Corypheus to appear, the scalpel, with the red templars first appearing in the attack on Haven as Corypheus' warhammer. The bits with the envy demon are interesting, but somewhat hamfisted, especially since the Herald of Andraste was never going to summon any demons even if possessed by Envy; the plan had already been set into motion to use the Grey Wardens. Cole has some good parts, but his intro in In Your Heart Shall Burn is just fine.

[The Hierophant]

Or, we can just go for the College instead.

 

Also, I started Champions of the Just, but don't have the strength to finish it. After comparing them, I've decided that the story works better when the Venatori, a subtler organization whose members very often work within mundane society as infiltrators, are the first agents of Corypheus to appear, the scalpel, with the red templars first appearing in the attack on Haven as Corypheus' warhammer. The bits with the envy demon are interesting, but somewhat hamfisted, especially since the Herald of Andraste was never going to summon any demons even if possessed by Envy; the plan had already been set into motion to use the Grey Wardens. Cole has some good parts, but his intro in In Your Heart Shall Burn is just fine.

Iirc the envy demon bit wasn't hamfisted if you read all of it's thoughts. It's job was to transform all the Templars into Reds, and provide Cory with another army.

 

Thanks to it's nature it deviated from Cory's original plan because it envied the Inquisitor's prestige. Remember Barris' confusion on Lucius' sudden interest after their dismissal of the Inquisitor in Val Royeaux?

[Xilizhra]

Iirc the envy demon bit wasn't hamfisted if you read all of it's thoughts. It's job was to transform all the Templars into Reds, and provide Cory with another army.

 

Thanks to it's nature it deviated from Cory's original plan because it envied the Inquisitor's prestige. Remember Barris' confusion on Lucius' sudden interest after their dismissal of the Inquisitor in Val Royeaux?

It's okay as a self-contained story, but it doesn't do much for the overall plot, especially since the envy demon gets all of the attention storywise and the red templars are just obstacles to plow through. They're actually intimidating in In Your Heart Shall Burn. There's also the fact that Lucius would have worked just fine as the main antagonist if they hadn't recycled him for Promises of Destruction, and if they hadn't decided to pad the quest with Fade sequences.

[The Hierophant]

It's okay as a self-contained story, but it doesn't do much for the overall plot, especially since the envy demon gets all of the attention storywise and the red templars are just obstacles to plow through. They're actually intimidating in In Your Heart Shall Burn. There's also the fact that Lucius would have worked just fine as the main antagonist if they hadn't recycled him for Promises of Destruction, and if they hadn't decided to pad the quest with Fade sequences.

Different strokes i guess.

[Boost32]

Giselle a good option? She is a no one, dont have any poilitical support, she is exactly what the Chantry doesnt need. The Chantry needs a Divine who will inspire the people, who will make the faithful forget about its inaction, the proclamation against the Inquisition and make them flock back to the Chantry.

After the Inquisition intervention at the Halamshiral, the Chantry see 2 potential candidates, the Left-Hand and the Right-Hand of Justinia. Vivienne realize this and use her influence to make herself a Candidate for the Divine role.

 

And to me Vivienne will always will be the best Divine. She treats the mage threath seriously and rebuilt the templars in a way to prevent their abuses. And she might have a ending where the Chantry start to fracturate, but Leliana and Cassandra have one too, and in my ending she is doing fine and the Chantry remains united.

[Potato Cat]

Giselle a good option? She is a no one, dont have any poilitical support, she is exactly what the Chantry doesnt need. The Chantry needs a Divine who will inspire the people, who will make the faithful forget about its inaction, the proclamation against the Inquisition and make them flock back to the Chantry.
After the Inquisition intervention at the Halamshiral, the Chantry see 2 potential candidates, the Left-Hand and the Right-Hand of Justinia. Vivienne realize this and use her influence to make herself a Candidate for the Divine role.
 
And to me Vivienne will always will be the best Divine. She treats the mage threath seriously and rebuilt the templars in a way to prevent their abuses. And she might have a ending where the Chantry start to fracturate, but Leliana and Cassandra have one too, and in my ending she is doing fine and the Chantry remains united.

Agreed. A lot of people say Vivienne more or less keeps the status quo, but I strongly disagree. I think she makes the Circles how they should be, and I know she won't let any more Kirkwalls spring up.

[Xilizhra]

Agreed. A lot of people say Vivienne more or less keeps the status quo, but I strongly disagree. I think she makes the Circles how they should be, and I know she won't let any more Kirkwalls spring up.

Sure she will. It'll happen after she dies, but they'll happen. Vivienne's leadership style is way too centralized; she spends too many resources just keeping herself in power and not enough reorganizing the Chantry itself.

Well, realistically speaking, it won't happen, but that's solely because the actual consequences of the Divine choice will fade into the narrative ether.