5943 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne's leadership style is way too centralized; she spends too many resources just keeping herself in power and not enough reorganizing the Chantry itself.

Spend resources? What are you talking about? Did you get each fictional character's fictional balance-sheets or something that you know which one is spending resources appropriately?

And she absolutely should protect her reign as Divine. A leader is not much good if they cannot stay in power. To that end, she does just fine in her position, if a few reasonable conditions are met (good terms with Inquisition, some rein over the Templars).

[Xilizhra]

Spend resources? What are you talking about? Did you get each fictional character's fictional balance-sheets or something that you know which one is spending resources appropriately?

And she absolutely should protect her reign as Divine. A leader is not much good if they cannot stay in power. To that end, she does just fine in her position, if a few reasonable conditions are met (good terms with Inquisition, some rein over the Templars).

The trouble is that Vivienne's ideas are barely any different from Cassandra's, but she tries to seize power in any case despite being a lightning rod for controversy. To me, the only way this makes sense is if her primary goal is power for herself.

[Boost32]

The trouble is that Vivienne's ideas are barely any different from Cassandra's, but she tries to seize power in any case despite being a lightning rod for controversy. To me, the only way this makes sense is if her primary goal is power for herself.

Like always, you try to make Vivienne a cartoon villain, dont even know why you bother coming here.

[Xilizhra]

Like always, you try to make Vivienne a cartoon villain, dont even know why you bother coming here.

What are you talking about? Loghain sought power, but that doesn't make him cartoonish. Meredith sought power, but she wasn't cartoonish either. I do think that Vivienne is evil, but I don't mind that about her; she's far more pragmatic and clever than most token evil party members. Better than Shale or Zaeed, to be sure.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The trouble is that Vivienne's ideas are barely any different from Cassandra's

Well unlike the other two candidates, Vivienne has actually seen and been part of a good, working Circle.

She knows what needs to be done.

[Xilizhra]

Well unlike the other two candidates, Vivienne has actually seen and been part of a good, working Circle.

She knows what needs to be done.

Happily, my Hero of Ferelden is a mage who was also part of a Circle, and who is a very close... consultant of Leliana as Divine on matters like these.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Happily, my Hero of Ferelden is a mage who was also part of a Circle,

... as an apprentice for, like, all but 1 day.

 

And that Circle was not very impressive. Not Kirkwall bad, but by the sounds of it, would not hold a candle to the one in Monnsimard (sp?). A mixed bag, basically, and the HoF was not some big shot that did much to improve it.

 

Of course, if BioWare had ever portrayed the Circle working at its optimum, there would not be controversy enough over it for some players to get their Social Justice crusades on and cry "FREEDAHM!!!!". So they kept it more ambiguous.

[Xilizhra]

... as an apprentice for, like, all but 1 day.

 

And that Circle was not very impressive. Not Kirkwall bad, but by the sounds of it, would not hold a candle to the one in Monnsimard (sp?). A mixed bag, basically, and the HoF was not some big shot that did much to improve it.

 

Of course, if BioWare had ever portrayed the Circle working at its optimum, there would not be controversy enough over it for some players to get their Social Justice crusades on and cry "FREEDAHM!!!!". So they kept it more ambiguous.

Or, if that had ever been the intent, they could have just gone with a D&D-like lack of social conflict over magic and not had to have anyone worry about it.

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

Leliana is the only option that has any real chance of bringing peace and stability to Thedas.

I do NOT trust Vivienne. My interpretation of her character was that she opposed the Circles breaking away from the Chantry not because she truly believed in the Chantry, but because she'd lose her power and prestige as First Enchanter and court Mage to the Empress. She's not so much a Chantry Loyalist as someone who sees the Chantry as a path to her own personal power. That is ALL Vivienne truly cares about. She lived her life in the lap of luxury, with no experience or concern about the abuses that OTHER Mages in Thedas were suffering through. She wants power and authority, and has no concern for those who are hurt as a result. As Divine, she basically returns things to the way they were previously, recreates the same system that led to the rebellion and war. Most Mages are NOT going to return to the Circles, and even if she manages peace for a time, ultimately the same excesses and abuses on part of the Chantry and the Templars WILL become inevitable, and Thedas WILL be right back to war. The chances of the war restarting before Vivienne dies is pretty close to 100%. Honestly, in my opinion, Vivienne is worse than Corypheus. As bad as he is, at least he is motivated by some twisted belief that the world would be a better place with him as a god. Vivienne only wants power for her OWN benefit.

Cassandra is a better choice than Vivienne, but still has problems. Cassandra means well, but her reforms will ultimately be a stopgap. Templars or no, Mages are NOT going to return to the Circle system in large numbers, and they will not agree to be under Chantry oversight for long. Peace may last for longer due to Cassandra's reforms, but the abuse will inevitably happen again, and war between the Mages and the Chantry will ultimately return to Thedas, just as with Vivienne. maybe just not as soon. While her time as Divine will likely be relatively peaceful, there is nothing to stop Cassandra's successor, or some future Divine, from undoing her reforms, and restoring the same oppressive system that led to the Mage/Templar war in the first place.

Leliana ends the Circle system and disbands the Templars. While that may not seem the best option, it's the only one that will promise any true peace. The Chantry's actions have shown that it can NOT be trusted to properly police and protect Mages, that it will WILL eventually abuse it's power. The Mages are not going to tolerate that abuse. Allowing that same repressive system to return will just be doing it all over again. To have a chance at peace, Mages MUST be outside of Chantry authority. Period. Leliana's extensive reforms, and the alliance of the Mages and the Chantry with the Inquisition, allows for stability, as each group can serve as a check on the excesses of the others. The New Seekers of Truth can help to prevent the rise of Maleficars, the Inquisition can stop the Chantry from becoming too powerful again, preventing their excesses, and the Mages could serve to police the Inquisition and keep THEM from getting abusive and repressive. These reforms are the only chance there is at preventing the war from restarting, and the only chance at any real long term peace. While the possibility remains that the conflict will restart under Leliana anyway, it is still just a possibility, as opposed to the absolute certainty that will result from Vivienne's appointment as Divine.

Leliana is a gentle person who often sees the best in everyone. She also has the instincts to know when to use a firm hand. She understands that there is a time and place for force, and will not use it unless it's absolutely necessary. She's a good hearted and idealistic person, but one who nonetheless is pragmatic when she needs to be. And that makes her the best choice to prevent a war. 
 

[Boost32]

 

(snip)

 

While I disagree with your reasoning, I respect your opinions, you should make more post like those instead of trolling in every thread like you normally do.

 

About Vivienne (I will not touch the rest of your post because this thread is about Vivienne, if you want to discuss the rest of it, create a topic about the Divine or send me a PM), while it can go back to the old ways I disagree that it will go back. Vivienne can change the people perception of the mages, the mages with more freedom and responsability can change it too, the new Templar Order will not be based on mage hatred (thats why I dont bother with the Silver Shield Ending, because the new Order need to be free from the old ways) and I doubt the Chantry will elect a Divine with anti-mage views after Vivienne and if they do, I doubt the general population will approve the mistreatment of the mages after they proved themselves.

And while you dont trust Vivienne, I do. She never betrays the Inquisition, she propose a alliance at a time the Inquisition is declared heretics, she will never leave you even if she hates, she would never use blood magic and while she is ambitious, she has scruples, you never saw her breaking the laws or the rules, all she got was by fair means.

And (in my opinion) she believes in the system, its not only about power, she didnt always have a good life, before the Circle she starved. After she went to the Circle, she was like any apprentice, every freedom she has, she conquested by following the rules. If she didnt believed in the system, why, if made Divine, she allows other mages to gain more freedom by the same means?

[Xilizhra]

I don't think that Vivienne's lived her whole life in the lap of luxury. I think she clawed her way up to it and is terrified of losing it.

[Sarielle]

 

 

I do NOT trust Vivienne. My interpretation of her character was that she opposed the Circles breaking away from the Chantry not because she truly believed in the Chantry, but because she'd lose her power and prestige as First Enchanter and court Mage to the Empress. She's not so much a Chantry Loyalist as someone who sees the Chantry as a path to her own personal power. That is ALL Vivienne truly cares about. She lived her life in the lap of luxury, with no experience or concern about the abuses that OTHER Mages in Thedas were suffering through. She wants power and authority, and has no concern for those who are hurt as a result.
 

 

 

While I enjoyed the read, I don't see any support for the notion that she doesn't care about other mages' struggles or abuses they faced. In fact, she explicitly states that all mages have a unique experience, and that the Templars' abuses should be protested. If you ask her if the mages had cause to rebel, she doesn't say no, she says "Was that really the time?" and talks about how much more people feared mages in the aftermath of Anders. She also blames herself/sounds truly remorseful if you take her to Redcliffe when you discover what happened to most of the Tranquil.

And as others have pointed out, via banter with Cole we know Vivienne went hungry before the Circle. She saw it as a haven from her previous life -- in which case it makes sense she'd support the system, whether she's particularly devout or not (and we have no evidence she is, I can agree that she's not necessarily religious).

 

Now does she want power? Sure, and I can even agree that it may likely crumble upon her death -- much of what she accomplishes seems through personality/cleverness and personal connections, which her successor wouldn't necessarily have. That doesn't preclude her from actually caring about other mages, or truly believing in the system.

 

Leliana is a gentle person who often sees the best in everyone. She also has the instincts to know when to use a firm hand. She understands that there is a time and place for force, and will not use it unless it's absolutely necessary. She's a good hearted and idealistic person, but one who nonetheless is pragmatic when she needs to be. And that makes her the best choice to prevent a war. 
 

 

 

Not in every playthrough, lol. She can make for one scary Divine.

[Mihura]

I think Vivienne can be sometimes "Lawfull Evil", you can see this clearly when she is Divine but the same can be said about Leliana in some PTs. She does show concern over the Tranquil that were made into shinny skulls and finds hanging, a barbaric punishment. Vivienne does not seek a way to harm others for the sake of it but only to advance her plans. Or at least that is the way I see it.

Also her centralize power is the most problematic aspect of her Divine reign, like some people already said. The problem is that the templars only answer to her and if Vivienne dies, the system falls or a new tyrant arises(if again a mage, doubt it, things could get tevinter fast), or even the templars realize that they have the military force that moves her system and it is basically Rome with puppet rulers. 

[TEWR]

 

Giselle a good option? She is a no one, dont have any poilitical support, she is exactly what the Chantry doesnt need.  

 

Giselle is the best choice from a narrative standpoint, because honestly... what was the point of introducing her if all she's going to do is sing a corny song and tend to a garden? She's supposed to be a pillar of support for the Inquisition, and she can and should be a pillar of support for all of Thedas.

 

She has the backing of the Inquisition, a political organization with the backing of Ferelden, Orlais, and potentially Starkhaven. An organization that has a bunch of smaller organizations tied to it.

 

And besides, one of the previous Divines was a commoner, not even within the Chantry hierarchy until her ascent (Divine Galatea). So if someone that poor and considered a nobody was elected to the role, then I see no reason why a Mother who faced the Mage-Templar conflict head on to tend to the wounded and is a part of the Inquisition wouldn't be able to either.

 

 

 

 

And to me Vivienne will always will be the best Divine. 

 

Vivienne as Divine is a bit of narrative trash to me, not because of her (I actually adore her character, though I think she was treated as a narrative prop by the devs) but because of the contradictory nature the story gives you. The game tells you that you can't be Divine because you're a mage, yet hands it to Vivienne (yeah yeah, her reign has a bit of unrest, the point is the devs want to be wishy-washy). 

 

Personally, I'm of the mind that neither Viv nor the Inq. should've been considered, the former for being a Mage and the latter for potentially being non-human and/or a mage, never mind the fact that the Divine having control of the Inquisition could lead to a theological dictatorship.

 

Never mind how I'm baffled how the Grand Clerics would've rallied behind a mage in the first place, when many of these same people have been so eager to call the Inquisition troublemakers at best. regardless of how some turn towards Leliana/Cass and will be amenable to the Inquisition, others are still not going to go along with the Inquisition, as Leliana's quest showed (and that doesn't need her to be Divine. It happens regardless)

 

The College of Clerics must be unanimous in their vote, yet they somehow go "Yeah sure, Vivienne as Divine" only to then turn around and go "WAIT A GOSH DANG DIDDLY DARN MINUTE" and act all surprised that they voted in Vivienne? Vivienne, the First Enchanter of Montsimmard's Circle, once advisor to Empress Celene on arcane matters, who was given the open support of the Inquisition? Who has been seen using magic openly?

 

Christ Almighty....

 

If anything, Vivienne should've ascended to Grand Enchanter in a reformed institution where she can properly flex her political muscles without fear of reprisal down the line, and if we believe Giselle is too... wrong for the task then this is even more reason. Because the GE advises the Divine and Vivienne could see to it that the Circles run efficiently and effectively as the power behind the Sunburst Throne. None of the blowback could go back to her, there's less potential for disastrous ruin after she's dead, etc.

 

And if we're to break the rules for anything Vivienne could get from a writing standpoint, then give her the power for Orlais. Let her become Empress. At least that doesn't have as much potential for future blowback (though I like my GE idea more. This Empress idea isn't even mine tbh, it's something I've seen other people post I think).

 

 

 

but Leliana and Cassandra have one too

 

Leliana's I expected to fracture. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that Vivienne as Divine is rife with problems, both from a realistic standpoint of what happens within Thedas where she will be under constant scrutiny, to how things will happen after she is dead, and from a narrative standpoint where the devs only inserted it to make a decision seem to have impact while simultaneously ignoring the very reason they gave you for why you can't be named Divine.

 

Moreover, a mage divine having such close ties to the Inquisition is bound to not be looked upon favorably, where if Vivienne's problems disappear and the Inquisition is present it will be seen as a bit of back-scratching. Hundreds of years of anti-mage/magic sentiment will not just go away no matter what she does. So long as she exists

[Potato Cat]

I think Vivienne can be sometimes "Lawfull Evil", you can see this clearly when she is Divine but the same can be said about Leliana in some PTs. She does show concern over the Tranquil that were made into shinny skulls and finds hanging, a barbaric punishment. Vivienne does not seek a way to harm others for the sake of it but only to advance her plans. Or at least that is the way I see it.
Also her centralize power is the most problematic aspect of her Divine reign, like some people already said. The problem is that the templars only answer to her and if Vivienne dies, the system falls or a new tyrant arises(if again a mage, doubt it, things could get tevinter fast), or even the templars realize that they have the military force that moves her system and it is basically Rome with puppet rulers.

Every Divine is hinted to have that problem in the future. 'For now', 'blood runs through the Grand Cathedral', 'her reforms are seen by some to be going too far', etc...

No matter what, all Bioware has to say is Divine Victoria has been murdered and we have a brand new shitty Divine who's taking the Chantry in a dark direction. And if not, there's another good thirty to forty years left of each Divine's life before they die of old age by which time, the franchise has probably come to an end.

[Mihura]

Every Divine is hinted to have that problem in the future. 'For now', 'blood runs through the Grand Cathedral', 'her reforms are seen by some to be going too far', etc...

No matter what, all Bioware has to say is Divine Victoria has been murdered and we have a brand new shitty Divine who's taking the Chantry in a dark direction. And if not, there's another good thirty to forty years left of each Divine's life before they die of old age by which time, the franchise has probably come to an end.

 

True but I was talking about my perceptive when it comes to the way they deal with problems. Cassandra does it well, it comes from a reformed system and not a centralize all powerful reign in one person. So Cassandra in my opinion is the middle ground to having the old orders with new directives that can last. Of course the ruthless Leliana approach is still my favorite and I think the one that last longer(or not, since she must have a lot of enemies and hopes to kill them first), it is "change your values or die."

Either way Vivienne is still my favorite character from DA:I.

 

[Potato Cat]

True but I was talking about my perceptive when it comes to the way they deal with problems. Cassandra does it well, it comes from a reformed system and not a centralize all powerful reign in one person. So Cassandra in my opinion is the middle ground to having the old orders with new directives that can last. Of course the ruthless Leliana approach is still my favorite and I think the one that last longer(or not, since she must have a lot of enemies and hopes to kill them first), it is "change your values or die."

Either way Vivienne is still my favorite character from DA:I.

 

Agreed. She's actually my favourite in the entire franchise right now by a long way.

 

Narrative-wise in general, I really appreciate Divine Princess Stabbity. I'd say I'm most interested in that outcome, (not that I'm expecting it to have any real consequences unless for some bizarre reason DA4 stays in the south), and it's definitely going as my first alternate world state. But I'm also really attached to my canon Quizzy and she just would not support Leliana so it would make no sense for her to end up Divine. The choice is either Cassandra or Vivienne, and as much as I love both characters, I would hope for a Vivienne cameo more so you can bet I'm making her the most politically powerful person in Thedas in hopes of increasing her chance. (Plus I also prefer the narrative upsides and downsides more than Cassandra's )

[Rundy Bundles]

Some of you could write a paper arguing with or against Vivienne. 1250 words max, use footnotes, minimum of 3 secondary sources, 1 primary. I want them by this Friday.








>_>




Well? Get on with it.

[Sarielle]

Why is Vivienne's maguffin quest optional/you have to ask to get it?

 

Been thinking about this. Solas just goes "Hey there's a thing I want to look at if you got time," Blackwall "Hey I'd like to grab these things if we can," etc when you approach them. Vivienne you specifically have to choose a dialogue option that says "I want to help the Circle" to get hers. Does anybody else's work that way? I'm trying to think and I can't remember for sure.

 

I do dislike how it's worded. Like, my Dalish keeper who says "eff that Circle nonsense" would still be all about helping to preserve rare books/knowledge. But she'd never pick an "I want to help the Circle option.

 

/2 coppers

[AresKeith]

Coppers in a Vivienne thread? pfft

[TEWR]

Coppers in a Vivienne thread? pfft

 

It's like the notion of dressing her in plaideweave.

 

It's so dreadfully common.

[Han Shot First]

I think Cassandra is the best choice for Divine personally, in that she's the moderate candidate. She wants to enact some change, but isn't quite as radical as Leliana. And while Vivienne enacts some change as well, she's the most conservative of the three.

 

My take on the three is that Leliana is the most dangerous choice because radical change rarely comes about without chaos or bloodshed, and I think both would realistically be likely to follow in her wake. Vivienne is a bit dangerous as well in that she doesn't enact enough change, and some of the problems that caused the Mage-Templar War in the first place are going to remain present. The Iron Lady will no doubt keep the rabble rousers in line, but what happens when she dies? I could see the powder keg going off. Cassandra I think finds a sweet spot between the two approaches and is the least likely of three to have her rule end with more bloodshed.

 

Having said that...Vivienne is one of my favorite characters in the DA universe (as is Leliana for that matter), and she was my Divine on my last playthrough. I just don't think she's the ideal candidate. I would however rank her as much better candidate than Leliana for Divine. Leliana may have been my Warden's LI, but she's the most poorly suited for the job. 

[Han Yolo]

Vivienne looks great with longer hair, too! Well, no surprise here, because she always looks great

http://aliceazzo.dev...e-Fer-513413121

 

---

Wish she'd have a bigger role in Wicked Eyes, or a longer personal quest, I really want to see her play the game more. I always let her have her way with Alphonse and enjoy the show, but this is barely enough!

[Mihura]

Why is Vivienne's maguffin quest optional/you have to ask to get it?

 

Been thinking about this. Solas just goes "Hey there's a thing I want to look at if you got time," Blackwall "Hey I'd like to grab these things if we can," etc when you approach them. Vivienne you specifically have to choose a dialogue option that says "I want to help the Circle" to get hers. Does anybody else's work that way? I'm trying to think and I can't remember for sure.

 

I do dislike how it's worded. Like, my Dalish keeper who says "eff that Circle nonsense" would still be all about helping to preserve rare books/knowledge. But she'd never pick an "I want to help the Circle option.

 

/2 coppers

 

I had something similar happening during my Lavallen PT but I head-canon it, as my character wanting to gain Vivienne trust since she was the only mage she could relate too. Which is ironic being a pro-dalish but it made sense with the responsible side of Vivienne and hunger for power, that they both share at the end of DA:I. Still sad I could not romance her with that character lol

[Han Shot First]

 

Wish she'd have a bigger role in Wicked Eyes, or a longer personal quest, I really want to see her play the game more. I always let her have her way with Alphonse and enjoy the show, but this is barely enough!

 

It is also a shame she got stuck in that Inquisition gear. 

 

It would have been interesting if bringing Vivienne along provided a little mini-quest to gain 5 or 10 approval points. She should be able to curry favor with the court after all.