People who dislike her are basically annoyed because they can't win with her
This is exactly what the problem is for many people. They complain that they don't think she's actually a "master of The Game", but then complain that she constantly bests them and they can't out-maneuver her. To me, it really just comes down to the fact that it's really difficult to best her.
This is exactly what the problem is for many people. They complain that they don't think she's actually a "master of The Game", but then complain that she constantly bests them and they can't out-maneuver her. To me, it really just comes down to the fact that it's really difficult to best her.
People who hate Viv can always bring Viv and Solas along on travels, and listen to him best her. He seems to outsmart everyone, but he better for being 1,000+ years old.
I prefer to bring Viv and Sera along, and listen to Viv constantly outsmart her (not that it's all that difficult to outsmart Sera.)
People who hate Viv can always bring Viv and Solas along on travels, and listen to him best her. He seems to outsmart everyone, but he better for being 1,000+ years old.
How long does that takes, like 3 seconds of independent conversations... That's too miniscule for Vivienne to bare. Vivienne is in like the 50th step.... The rest who tries to outsmart her are like down below her. They don't get any better than her. She is still left standing.
I feel like they are waiting for her to go to a corner and cry. And they are the ones who are suffering more. They can't get any louder than her.
People who dislike her are basically annoyed because they can't win with her.
On a different topic:
For Vivienne's personal quest, I'd have rather have seen a story relating to her being First Enchanter. For all her warning and cautionary tales of mages being hunted and strung up by mundanes, it'd have been really interesting to have her seek out her old students to have found them set upon by town folk, and to see how she'd handle that situation.
Interestingly enough, that was kinda similar to how I envisioned her recruitment quest way back when she was first announced and all we knew about her was she was a high ranking Orlesian mage. It would have been a really interesting way to explore her character. Though I wonder if she ever had students, especially considering she became First Enchanter at such a young age. Maybe they could have been friends she had at the Ostwick Circle perhaps? Before she became the woman she is today. But, probably too young...
For what it's worth, I liked her quest. Well, I liked the premise of it. Showing her softer side, but still showing how she's adaptable, how she's had to change and hide aspects of herself to get where she is and ultimately how masterful at turning a bad situation around to her benefit. Sadly, the scene with Bastien was really short and I think there was a LOT of content that was cut from that quest.
This is exactly what the problem is for many people. They complain that they don't think she's actually a "master of The Game", but then complain that she constantly bests them and they can't out-maneuver her. To me, it really just comes down to the fact that it's really difficult to best her.
It's because they don't let us respond to far too many arguments, some of which are frankly on the sloppy side.
How long does that takes, like 3 seconds of independent conversations... That's too miniscule for Vivienne to bare. Vivienne is in like the 50th step.... The rest who tries to outsmart her are like down below her. They don't get any better than her. She is still left standing.
I feel like they are waiting for her to go to a corner and cry. And they are the ones who are suffering more. They can't get any louder than her.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. ???
Somehow, I still feel that her character don't fit the inquisition as a party member (maybe as a advisor or something background like that)
but she is not the kind of person that I would see running around in Hinterlands, killing rams and such and dirtying her expensive dress. She is the type of people that would let her lackeys do her dirty work and collect the reward at the end.
so she running around just don't fit her personality.
To me its does.Somehow, I still feel that her character don't fit the inquisition as a party member (maybe as a advisor or something background like that)
but she is not the kind of person that I would see running around in Hinterlands, killing rams and such and dirtying her expensive dress. She is the type of people that would let her lackeys do her dirty work and collect the reward at the end.
so she running around just don't fit her personality.
This is exactly what the problem is for many people. They complain that they don't think she's actually a "master of The Game", but then complain that she constantly bests them and they can't out-maneuver her. To me, it really just comes down to the fact that it's really difficult to best her.
Here's the thing through, when your having those early on arguments with her about magic and the need for the Circle I could understand/accept how she can intellectually outmaneuver through solid, well-thought out arguments. That's fine for the most part with a couple of exceptions, but in those arguments she's not acting as a player of the Game, but as someone whose just having an argument with another person. There's none of the veiled threats, political loopholes or mind games that are associated with the Game in those conversations.
When you get her disapproval scene though she is trying to use the Game against you to get her away. Unfortunately, that scene makes the Inquisitor and Vivienne look stupid for no reason. Vivienne just lays out her complaints against you and moves your furniture and for some reason that forces the Inquisitor to just shake her/his head and walk away.
She doesn't threaten you with blackmail, she doesn't tell you how much you need her for Inquisition to succeed and she doesn't try to convince you diplomatically that your going about things all wrong. She doesn't use social mechanics to control you in this instance at all. Therefore, there's no reason for you to not flat out kick her out of the Inquisition or reprimand her. Sera can get mad you and start insulting to your face and the game allows to kick her out for it. Vivienne does the same thing but in a passive-aggressive manner and you can't do same to her for some reason. It's odd and to be honest that furniture scene should have ended up with Vivienne leaving of her own volition or with you kicking her out yourself.
The point is Vivienne doesn't actually manage to outsmart you in that scene, she just manages to get away with being an insubordinate ass for no reason. That's not her being a master of the Game, that's the game itself not allowing to punish her for no reason.
Meh. Still sounds like people being upset that they can't get the better of her.
Guest_Imanol de Tafalla_*
Somehow, I still feel that her character don't fit the inquisition as a party member (maybe as a advisor or something background like that).
You make a good point. She could have easily taken Leliana's spot should the former had been killed in DA:O.
Vivienne, like Leliana, has an eye for the Grand Game. Plus, it makes more sense for a mage to offer the Arcane Knowledge perk.
Meh. Still sounds like people being upset that they can't get the better of her.
Well, yeah. This isn't about her being smarter then the Inquisitor when it comes to mage issues. It's about your character being forced to be passive for no reason. After that disapproval scene why can't I kick her out? It's a honest question.
Meh. Still sounds like people being upset that they can't get the better of her.
When you can get the better of everyone else in the game, these people aren't wrong to feel that way. Vivienne appears to be something of a writer's pet that way.
Well, yeah. This isn't about her being smarter then the Inquisitor when it comes to mage issues. It's about your character being forced to be passive for no reason. After that disapproval scene why can't I kick her out? It's a honest question.
Probably because she can be Divine, so she's critical to the plot the same way that Cassandra, Leliana, and Solas are. Vivienne's not the only character who you can't kick out, right? Varric and Iron Bull too, right? I'm still not sure who can leave and who can't once you recruit them.
When you can get the better of everyone else in the game, these people aren't wrong to feel that way. Vivienne appears to be something of a writer's pet that way.
Well, technically, Solas is capable of outsmarting Viv in banter. He's been playing the game for thousands of years.
But yes, I do wish the Inquisitor had the option to be more proactive in that scene. No doubt Viv can outplay the inquisitor, but to just stand there with a thumb up his/her ass is pretty damn lame. I wouldn't mind if the Renegade Shepard punch was an option for those who'd like to take it, which could have the consequence of Viv leaving the party or losing influence or power or whatever.
Still, I like Viv's character more than dislike her as the player.
Probably because she can be Divine, so she's critical to the plot the same way that Cassandra, Leliana, and Solas are. Vivienne's not the only character who you can't kick out, right? Varric and Iron Bull too, right? I'm still not sure who can leave and who can't once you recruit them.
You already have Leliana and Cassandra, just take Vivienne out of the running for Divine. Problem solved. She's not a mandatory companion anyway.
Cassandra, Solas, Varric can't be kicked out for plot reasons. Cole, Blackwall and Dorian will just leave without you even needing to kick them out if you get to much disapproval. Sera can be kicked out whenever you want. Iron Bull doesn't have a disapproval scene from what I can tell.
If you really don't like Vivienne, then don't even attend her party and damn her with the one thing she fears the most: irrelevance.
But that's not what the writers wanted. They wanted Vivienne as a Divine option so she's an important character whether you like it or not. And, just like Cass, Varric, and Solas, she can't be kicked out. It makes about as much sense as not being able to kick out Solas after you deck him.You already have Leliana and Cassandra, just take Vivienne out of the running for Divine. Problem solved. She's not a mandatory companion anyway.
Cassandra, Solas, Varric can't be kicked out for plot reasons. Cole, Blackwall and Dorian will just leave without you even needing to kick them out if you get to much disapproval. Sera can be kicked out whenever you want. Iron Bull doesn't have a disapproval scene from what I can tell.
Can Vivienne even become Divine if you don't recruit her?
But that's not what the writers wanted. They wanted Vivienne as a Divine option so she's an important character whether you like it or not. And, just like Cass, Varric, and Solas, she can't be kicked out. It makes about as much sense as not being able to kick out Solas after you deck him.
If they wanted her as a needed Divine option why would they make her a possibly ignoble companion? They should of made her join up instantly at the beginning of the game if that was the case.
Can Vivienne even become Divine if you don't recruit her?
Vivienne can only be Divine if recruited.
If you really don't like Vivienne, then don't even attend her party and damn her with the one thing she fears the most: irrelevance.
Pretty much this.
I haven't taken kindly to Sera, so on my second playthrough I didn't pick her up.
Pretty much this.
I haven't taken kindly to Sera, so on my second playthrough I didn't pick her up.
LOL, yeah. People can hate on Viv all they want, but in the end Sera is probably the most irrelevant companion character in DAI. At least Viv can become Divine, and she has insight into the politics of Orlais, the mage/templar war, etc. Sera is just an idiot with a potty mouth.
LOL, yeah. People can hate on Viv all they want, but in the end Sera is probably the most irrelevant companion character in DAI. At least Viv can become Divine, and she has insight into the politics of Orlais, the mage/templar war, etc. Sera is just an idiot with a potty mouth.
Agreed, Viv is more proactive while Sera is more reactionary.
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