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[Rel Fexive]

Regarding the wait for the last LI announcements.... repeated from the party banter thread.

 

 

VIVIENNE: There is nothing like a Grand Ball to inspire intrigue.

SERA: Plus, lots of trinkets to pocket I bet.

VIVIENNE: My dear, the day you get an invite to such an event is the day the sky falls- Oh. Oh, no.

SERA: Oh, yes. You should see the dress the Inquisitor and Josephine picked out for me! So frilly!

VIVIENNE: Oh Maker, no.

SERA: Every frill could hold a pocket for my ill-gotten gains. My fingers are itching already!

VIVIENNE: This is why your only friends are those Jenny persons. You have neither a sense of style nor a sense of decorum. It is going to be a disaster.

SERA: Tell you what, Vivi love - I promise to be on my very best behaviour, just for you.... as long as you tell me who back at Skyhold you'd most like to boff the socks off of!

VIVIENNE: .....Nice try.

[KC_Prototype]

Regarding the wait for the last LI announcements.... repeated from the party banter thread.

 

 

VIVIENNE: There is nothing like a Grand Ball to inspire intrigue.

SERA: Plus, lots of trinkets to pocket I bet.

VIVIENNE: My dear, the day you get an invite to such an event is the day the sky falls- Oh. Oh, no.

SERA: Oh, yes. You should see the dress the Inquisitor and Josephine picked out for me! So frilly!

VIVIENNE: Oh Maker, no.

SERA: Every frill could hold a pocket for my ill-gotten gains. My fingers are itching already!

VIVIENNE: This is why your only friends are those Jenny persons. You have neither a sense of style nor a sense of decorum. It is going to be a disaster.

SERA: Tell you what, Vivi love - I promise to be on my very best behaviour, just for you.... as long as you tell me who back at Skyhold you'd most like to boff the socks off of!

VIVIENNE: .....Nice try.

LOL!

[JOSEPHINEMONTILYET]

In this day and age, Actor is becoming increasingly gender-neutral.  [/morepedantic]

Male nouns are always the ones that are approached as gender neutral, but people will normally assume male from what is touted as "gender specific". Gender neutrality in linguistics is often simply reductive and misleading. At least in English, I have very little experience in other languages.

 

Just listened to a snippet of her in an interview. I can totally see it. She does need to sound posher though, but that'd be easy enough.

When she was in Skyfall, she sounded very classy

 

also the Anders romance seemed to be more developed and touching with females than with males. I think it's because straight characters are still prefered when it comes to development. But it happens to gay people also. Steve wasn't as developed as the other characters, no matter how much some people like him. I could also tell you people who like Samantha, and still both of them aren't really important.

 

and at least lesbians had characters like samantha, liara, kelly, etc. There was no bisexual male character in the first games at all. I agree that the straight romances are often better developed, but I don't agree that lesbian romances are worse than gay ones, or that lesbians are worse treated. That's not true. Both groups are disadvantaged.

I want to agree with what you're saying but you fundamentally misunderstand how society approaches lesbians. The reason that lesbians have more content in theory is because men tend to play women so (as my brother puts it) you can stare at your hot character while you play. What you have is bisexual characters who romance both men and women but the actual target audience in both romances is still the straight male. If you follow this line of thought, lesbian gaymers actually get very little romance targeted toward them and what little there is is buried under straight male titillation.
When you have homosexual male content however, it's assumed that straight men won't want to play that storyline at all (except perhaps completionists), therefore it is more targeted toward actual homosexual males.

So you end up getting more content for homosexual males, despite what appears to be more content for lesbians/female bisexuals.
ofc, sexual minorities in general are not treated well enough to satisfy me.

[LiaraShepard]

 

Male nouns are always the ones that are approached as gender neutral, but people will normally assume male from what is touted as "gender specific". Gender neutrality in linguistics is often simply reductive and misleading. At least in English, I have very little experience in other languages.

 

 

When she was in Skyfall, she sounded very classy

 

I want to agree with what you're saying but you fundamentally misunderstand how society approaches lesbians. The reason that lesbians have more content in theory is because men tend to play women so (as my brother puts it) you can stare at your hot character while you play. What you have is bisexual characters who romance both men and women but the actual target audience in both romances is still the straight male. If you follow this line of thought, lesbian gaymers actually get very little romance targeted toward them and what little there is is buried under straight male titillation.
When you have homosexual male content however, it's assumed that straight men won't want to play that storyline at all (except perhaps completionists), therefore it is more targeted toward actual homosexual males.

So you end up getting more content for homosexual males, despite what appears to be more content for lesbians/female bisexuals.
ofc, sexual minorities in general are not treated well enough to satisfy me.

 

 

Yes, they have more content than gay characters because straight men sometimes play as a lesbian as well. But I can't agree with you that lesbians are less targeted than gay men "in Bioware games". Juhani, the first "lesbian" character wasn't a titillation to straight men at all. I know, her romance was very shallow, but at least it was there. No romance for gay dudes however. The first bisexual woman I remember was Silk Fox from Jade Empire who had very unique lesbian dialogue. It wasn't a copy and paste job. she's certainly no further sexy female character for straight men. She was a strong woman, who discovered her bisexual side if you played as a female, and it was very well done. Besides that, she was much more story relevated than the bisexual male character, Sky. Same with Liara. She wasn't some hot Asari chick to romance. She was nerdy, cute and grew up stronger during the games. The lesbian romance with her might not vary very much from the heterosexual one, but she was clearly enjoyable if you romanced her as a female. And she was very story relevated as well. She had a bigger appearance in the game series than the bisexual male character, Kaidan. Also Leliana was done well. Okay, people always complained about Leliana having no romance banter if you romanced her as a female character. But I romanced both Zevran and Leliana with the same sex. And none of them seemed less developed or enjoyable than the other one. Next characters; Merrill and Isabela: People who complain about Isabela could also complain about Zevran. I don't see how it works. And there's no difference between Merrill and Fenris. Both of them seem to be very playersexual. I never played Baldurs Gate, so I can't say anything about that game. But the only lesbian character I saw that seemed to be like a titillation was Samantha. And even Samantha had more character flaws and sympathy from my side than the generic Steve. 

 

by the way: I only talk about Bioware games. Most other games don't have gay characters at all, and lesbians primarily for the reaons you mentioned.

[Maria Caliban]

Male nouns are always the ones that are approached as gender neutral...

Actor is no more masculine than the word table. If I randomly decide to call pink tables 'tablesses', that doesn't mean table is now a masculine noun.

[TheLittleBird]

Actor is no more masculine than the word table. If I randomly decide to call pink tables 'tablesses', that doesn't mean table is now a masculine noun.

Some would argue that 'actress' is derived from the word actor, which has since gotten a masculine 'meaning', if you will.
And since 'actor' is the primary word to signify someone employed in the acting business, this masculine 'meaning' could be considered by others to be more... important, if you will.

[Sporothrix]

But the only lesbian character I saw that seemed to be like a titillation was Samantha. And even Samantha had more character flaws and sympathy from my side than the generic Steve. 

 

 

Of course, the fact that only ManShep (and automatically, by the extension FemShep who didn't romance her) got to really know her character, not FemShep who was in relationship with her (her players actually got much less content, mostly when it comes to important, character-building dialogues), strongly suggests that she was from the beginning created with straight men in mind, not lesbians. Steve may be "boring", but his sexuality as a gay man was always treated with full respect and he wasn't for straight yaoi fans' pleasure.

 

 

 

by the way: I only talk about Bioware games. Most other games don't have gay characters at all, and lesbians primarily for the reaons you mentioned.

 

Fallout New Vegas had perks that allowed gay and lesbian, as well as straight male/straight female conversations with certain NPCs. And guess what, lesbians got significantly less such conversations than gay men, not to mention that their options usually just directed to conversation you could achieve anyway by passing some attribute test, while most gay male conversation options had special content.

 

It's really starting to remind situation of lesbians and gay men in other media, where gay men are treated as "the real deal", while all the others are pushed aside and ridiculed. According to GLAAD reports, there are more gay male characters in TV than the whole LBT combined. And their sexuality is generally treated with respect, while overwhelming majority of lesbian characters just have to have sex with men, and usually look like they enjoy it, reinforcing incredibly damaging homophobic myths about lesbian sexuality. Interestingly, many such storylines come from gay men as showrunners or headwriters. Few months ago, when "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope happened in "Hannibal", gay showrunner even used his sexuality to silence the criticism from lesbian audience.

[LiaraShepard]

Of course, the fact that only ManShep (and automatically, by the extension FemShep who didn't romance her) got to really know her character, not FemShep who was in relationship with her (her players actually got much less content, mostly when it comes to important, character-building dialogues), strongly suggests that she was from the beginning created with straight men in mind, not lesbians. Steve may be "boring", but his sexuality as a gay man was always treated with full respect and he wasn't for straight yaoi fans' pleasure.

 

 

 

Fallout New Vegas had perks that allowed gay and lesbian, as well as straight male/straight female conversations with certain NPCs. And guess what, lesbians got significantly less such conversations than gay men, not to mention that their options usually just directed to conversation you could achieve anyway by passing some attribute test, while most gay male conversation options had special content.

 

It's really starting to remind situation of lesbians and gay men in other media, where gay men are treated as "the real deal", while all the others are pushed aside and ridiculed. According to GLAAD reports, there are more gay male characters in TV than the whole LBT combined. And their sexuality is generally treated with respect, while overwhelming majority of lesbian characters just have to have sex with men, and usually look like they enjoy it, reinforcing incredibly damaging homophobic myths about lesbian sexuality. Interestingly, many such storylines come from gay men as showrunners or headwriters. Few months ago, when "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope happened in "Hannibal", gay showrunner even used his sexuality to silence the criticism from lesbian audience.

 

I never played Fallout New Vegas, only BioWare games, so I can't say anything about that game. But I don't agree with you that gay sexuality is treated more respectfully than lesbian sexuality. On the contrary, lots of gay characters are represented as very ridiculous and overly feminine sex addicted jokes, whereas lesbian characters are often described more adequat or realistically. I agree though that in media, gay sexuality is more present than lesbian sexuality. But unfortunately, in a negative way very often.

[Maria Caliban]

I like BioWare's handling of bisexual women, and romances between the PC and female characters. I find I dislike BioWare's handling of lesbians, and romances between women that don't involve the PC.

At GaymerX, Patrick mentioned that the number of people who did Leliana/FemWarden romances was larger than their projected number of lgbt players. That suggests that the majority of people who enjoy f/f content aren't queer women.

I think it's best to accept that this content isn't made for us but BioWare at least makes it with us in mind.

It's too early to contrast the situation of gay men to gay women. TV and books gives you a lot of data points. BioWare games gives you... 7.
 

But I don't agree with you that gay sexuality is treated more respectfully than lesbian sexuality. On the contrary, lots of gay characters are represented as very ridiculous and overly feminine sex addicted jokes, whereas lesbian characters are often described more adequat or realistically.

I think she means that gay men are gay wherein lesbians are bisexual. If I go through a list of 'lesbian' characters on TV, the majority of them will have had a relationship with a man.

[Sporothrix]

I never played Fallout New Vegas, only BioWare games, so I can't say anything about that game. But I don't agree with you that gay sexuality is treated more respectfully than lesbian sexuality. On the contrary, lots of gay characters are represented as very ridiculous and overly feminine jokes, whereas lesbian characters are often described more adequat or realistically. I agree though that in media, gay sexuality is more present than lesbian sexuality. But unfortunately, in a negative way very often.

 

Lesbian characters in TV are almost entirely femme. How is that more adequate and realistic? BTW, IIRC that was the argument of Bryan Fuller, showrunner of Hannibal, why he changed butch, body-building lesbian from the book into femme - to not reinforce negative stereotypes. And then he made her have sex with a man, which didn't have place in book. Of course, he had excuse - she just wanted to get pregnant. But for some reason, he also had to make her look like she was really into the sex.

 

And I would argue that the fact that overwhelming majority of lesbian characters sleep with men (like I said, usually looking like it's quite enjoyable experience for them; at least 6th TV show since the end of last year did it about month ago) is much worse, because aside of making our sexuality look like a joke, it reinforces the most damaging myths that fuel sexual hassassment and so called "corrective" rapes on lesbians.

[LiaraShepard]

I still think Sera won't be a titillation for straight men. She seems very smart and funny, and a little mouthy as well. I think she'll be a really great character and no comparison to Samantha. People shouldn't fear her treatment. 

[LiaraShepard]

Lesbian characters in TV are almost entirely femme. How is that more adequate and realistic? BTW, IIRC that was the argument of Bryan Fuller, showrunner of Hannibal, why he changed butch, body-building lesbian from the book into femme - to not reinforce negative stereotypes. And then he made her have sex with a man, which didn't have place in book. Of course, he had excuse - she just wanted to get pregnant. But for some reason, he also had to make her look like she was really into the sex.

 

And I would argue that the fact that overwhelming majority of lesbian characters sleep with men (like I said, usually looking like it's quite enjoyable experience for them; at least 6th TV show since the end of last year did it about month ago) is much worse, because it reinforces the most damaging myths that fuel sexual hassassment and so called "corrective" rapes on lesbians.

 

I won't agree to this, sorry. I saw lots of lesbian characters who were just as normal as other women (not described as butch or overly femme), whereas I saw lots of gay characters who were represented as pussys and wimps. And to the harassment comment: I don't say anything against it. But there are still far more gay people killed and abused than lesbians. Even justified by law in some countries. There are countries which punish lesbians and gays equally, but in more countries gay people have fewer rights when it comes to law. And even in areas where homosexuality is allowed, gays have a worse status than lesbians. And TV is at fault too, because gay characters are so badly and stereotypically represented. So I think gays are even worse treated than lesbians, although Lesbians are already badly treated. But I think, we'll not find an agreement on this. So to each his own.

[LiaraShepard]

I think she means that gay men are gay wherein lesbians are bisexual. If I go through a list of 'lesbian' characters on TV, the majority of them will have had a relationship with a man.

 

That there are more bisexual women than lesbians in TV is something I agree with, also that there are more gays than bisexual men. 

[Sporothrix]

At GaymerX, Patrick mentioned that the number of people who did Leliana/FemWarden romances was larger than their projected number of lgbt players. That suggests that the majority of people who enjoy f/f content aren't queer women.

I think it's best to accept that this content isn't made for us but BioWare at least makes it with us in mind.

 

 

I recall you saying that most players who did Leliana f/f romance were apparently straight men. Maybe that's why Traynor's content looked like it looked like. But I'm not so sure that straight men who do F/F romances are some stereotypical jocks. Those would rather never play as female on the first place.

 

I remember my surprise when seeing during some rant on Twitter due to yet another instance of "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope happening in yet another show, that quite a few apparently straight men (with accounts looking valid) were pissed off because of that situation and were calling out people who were responsible for their sexism and homophobia. And they pointed out at shows with positive lesbian representation, like OITNB.

 

So, straight men being fans of lesbian storylines and calling out for "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope. I wonder if it isn't rather such men who did that romance. So if devs try to appeal to them, then they need to appeal to us, lesbians, on the first place.

[Mihura]

Actually I am suppose to be the target audience for characters just like Sera and Samantha but I have no desire to romance them, I would much prefer Vivienne, Josephine or Casandra, so I am not holding my breath on Sera. And I find her armor in itself fanservice.... 

 

They could very well be doing a subversion of some cliche, Sera being a character with more fanservice and a elf, is closed to male PCs, Cassandra being a "strong warrior type" is the main male PC alas the tears over her jaw and Vivienne a classy lady with strong sense of order and politics being the one available to both. If this is some kind cleaver and well thinking plot to give us cool characters, than I am up for it.

[Maria Caliban]

So...

Vivienne?

[jlb524]

I like Vivienne.

[Sporothrix]

I'd have liked him to avoid the sex, but the character from the novel was incredibly problematic.

She wasn't just a butch body builder. She had to tape down her clitoris because her steroid use had caused it to enlarge*. She was a lesbian because her brother sexually abused her. She worked out because she was desperate to not be attractive to men.

No, she didn't have sex in the novel, she uses a cattle prod to force her brother to ejaculate so she can gather his sperm and have his child.

Bryan Fuller's take on her might be bad but it's still better than the original character.

* And yes, we get a paragraph in a novel telling us about her bizarrely huge clitoris. It's not even a sex scene. She's just walking down the street contemplating it.

 

Was it stated or implied in book - that she was lesbian because her brother sexually abused her, or simply she was sexually abused, and she was a lesbian?

 

Still, I can't see how implying lesbians need men sexually after all is better than this. Plus, it was also about how Fuller acted in response to criticism. Using his gay male card to silence people was just such a weak move.

[Hellion Rex]

Maria..............wtf?

[Fiery Phoenix]

So...

Vivienne?

What do you think her favorite toothpaste is?

[Maria Caliban]

What do you think her favorite toothpaste is?

I think she'd prefer cinnamon to spearmint. I also think she'd avoid toothpaste that's too sweet.

[revan11exile]

lol do people in Thedus even brush their teeth

[jlb524]

lol do people in Thedus even brush their teeth

 

Vivienne does.

[Maria Caliban]

lol do people in Thedus even brush their teeth

In Origins, no one did, but apparently they invented the toothbrush between games.

I expect Vivienne has sparkling whites.

[Milan92]

 

I think that's her introduction at the party she throws for the Inquisition.