Hmm..Does it have to be a chantry run circle? Or can it be a mage run circle?
If she gets to be the mage running things, I'd say the latter would be her preference... there hasn't been any mention of religion in the info I've seen about Viv. I'm thinking that if a secular Circle is possible, that's the kind she would favor. If the choice is binary again, with the only options being Chantry Circle or none at all, then she's likely to support the Chantry to remain in power. That's my take on it.
I thought that Viv might at least be mildly pro-Chantry since they made a point of saying Morrigan provides Celene with "a source of information unfiltered by religious dogma". Hinting that Vivienne's counsel is likely Chantry influenced. Of course Viv could just be keeping up appearances for the sake of discretion.
@ Neesa - Oh, I don't know anything about that. I don't follow Morrigan news... You could be right.
A mage ruling Orlais, the seat of the Chantry's power? That sounds nice, but let's not get ahead of ourselves...
I agree with you and I am playing with a mage as well so i would love if this is her hidden ambition thing everybody talks about.I did hear on a video that Viv is the opposite of Morrigan lolYes, I plan to play as pro-Chantry and Circle characters primarily. How about you?
(edit: let me also add that some of my characters would remain neutral for lack of interest in a strictly human institution... those characters would let her do whatever she wanted and would probably help if she proved to be a useful ally)
If Viv wants to build a new circle in the inquistion would you guys let her?
I think it's always important to separate what the Circle system was presumably supposed to be from how it turned out. There was something I posted in this thread a few months back - basically that what Circles monitored by Templars under the authority of the Chantry were intended to be is different from how they turned out, right from the moment, of course, that you involve people.
It is possible to keep the Circle system by changing the attitudes of the people "in charge" - being in a Circle doesn't have to mean being locked up, monitored by the Templars doesn't have to mean suspicion and cruelty, and the Chantry overseeing it all doesn't have to mean it has to be based on an attitude of fear and loathing of magic and mages.
That being said, if the best solution overall is to take overall authority over the Circles away from the Templars and Chantry and into the (glowing) hand of my Inquisition then you can bet I'll do it - on my terms.
If Viv wants to build a new circle in the inquistion would you guys let her?
God, no. I can kick her out of the Skyhold for all I care. Or kill even. I've had enough of that bullshit with Wynne already (needless to say, I agree with Morrigan on the matter and absolutely detest Wynne and her spineless kind).
God, no. I can kick her out of the Skyhold for all I care. Or kill even. I've had enough of that bullshit with Wynne already (needless to say, I agree with Morrigan on the matter and absolutely detest Wynne and her spineless kind).
Why always the hate? Wynne was hardly spineless, she just believed in the circle. I don't agree either but that doesn't mean I can't see and understand the other side.
Well I may be inclined to play a pro-Circle mage Trevelyan, but much in the fashion of Circle Bethany who enjoys teaching to children, sees the Circle as a surrogate family to protect. So one of my characters might not disagree entirely with Vivienne on this issue.
It will depends on how much Vivienne is privileged (and aware of it if it's the case) because of her position at court. Nevertheless, I can see my character experiencing a sort of culture shock by being suddenly "free" and consequently taking a more reformist stance. I'm pretty sure Vivienne will take issue with that if she thinks that to enjoy more privileges, mages have to earn it.
I can see her feeling entitled (because of her accomplishment, her social ascension so in a sense, rightfully so).
It's funny, if I decide to go Rogue, my character will be more anti-Circle, pro-mage freedom than my mage and is not likely to get along with Vivienne.
It's all about the how-it's-done, and the why-it's-done.
On the other hand, voting to unilaterally separate from the Chantry/Templars and expecting that to end with anything other than a swift and violent Templar response (especially with Lambert in charge) was idiocy. That was never going to work.
Well I may be inclined to play a pro-Circle mage Trevelyan, but much in the fashion of Circle Bethany who enjoys teaching to children, sees the Circle as a surrogate family to protect. So one of my characters might not disagree entirely with Vivienne on this issue.
It will depends on how much Vivienne is privileged (and aware of it if it's the case) because of her position at court. Nevertheless, I can see my character experiencing a sort of culture shock by being suddenly "free" and consequently taking a more reformist stance. I'm pretty sure Vivienne will take issue with that if she thinks that to enjoy more privileges, mages have to earn it.
I can see her feeling entitled (because of her accomplishment, her social ascension so in a sense, rightfully so).
It's funny, if I decide to go Rogue, my character will be more anti-Circle, pro-mage freedom than my mage and is not likely to get along with Vivienne.
I know it often gets used that way, but I don't entirely see "pro-Circle" as being the same as "pro-enslavement" - mages can be free and members of Circles at the same time, though I spose they wouldn't then be the Circles as we currently know them.
Why always the hate? Wynne was hardly spineless, she just believed in the circle. I don't agree either but that doesn't mean I can't see and understand the other side.
She was brainwashed, she was never free and couldn't even protect her own child. When talking to Alistair she said "oh noes, there was nothing I can do, nope, nope". Yes, damn you, you could've done something - anything, but you chose not to. She chose to obey. It's just the case - "the man chooses, a slave obeys". I have no other word for her but spineless.
Also, she was doing so poorly in the Fade - the Senior enchanter, someone, who's supposed to be a rolemodel, who teach children of her own kind. It's a good thing she never became the First enchanter.
Also, the way she nags at Morrigan (all the thing she says to her, basically), being technically an abomination herself - that's almost as bad as Templars hypocrisy.
Yes, I know that whole story about how she was no-one and very young and fall in love with the Tower at the first sight. And yes, as a person she's not really that bad. But as a mage and a rolemodel? No - just no, she just should stfu. Even if there should be something like Circle, it shouldn't be ruled by people like her. And Vivienne sounds now almost as bad, plus she's also very ambitious and power-hungry to boot. I can't see how she'll create something good in this situation.
She was brainwashed, she was never free and couldn't even protect her own child. When talking to Alistair she said "oh noes, there was nothing I can do, nope, nope". Yes, damn you, you could've done something - anything, but you chose not to. She chose to obey. It's just the case - "the man chooses, a slave obeys". I have no other word for her but spineless.
She had just given birth. 
What could she have done? You say she could have done something but offer no suggestions yourself.
She's certainly not a slave. She has beliefs and she makes compromises like a sensible person. She certainly isn't just a servant of the Templars and the Chantry. She's an Aequitarian not a Loyalist, she would go against the Templars and the Chantry if she felt like it was the right thing to do.
Also, she was doing so poorly in the Fade - the Senior enchanter, someone, who's supposed to be a rolemodel, who teach children of her own kind. It's a good thing she never became the First enchanter.
This was a particularly powerful demon and Wynne understands that anyone (even her) is at risk of being posessed. She's also a spirit healer and someone who naturally communes with the entities in the fade. Those people are in even more danger than regular mages, she did pretty well against every other demon but she was in this demons realm and he was very powerful.
Also, the way she nags at Morrigan (all the thing she says to her, basically), being technically an abomination herself - that's almost as bad as Templars hypocrisy.
everyone nags at Morrigan. I love Morrigan but when it came to certain things she was incredibly naive in Origins. Wynne doesn't allow the spirit to warp her mind like Anders did and she herself was not just perfectly happy to be an abomination. She just wasn't going to let it hold her back.
And Solas. The time Solas possible speaks the video is being narrated so you can't really make it out.
That's true, we really haven't seen much of him either.
What could she have done?
Many things. Don't let it happen in the first place, get rid of it, escape, and so on. What she did was seat on her ass and wait for 9 months. She gave up both physicaly and psychologically long before it happened and it reminds me of Fenris and the fog warriors. And I can't have even the slightest bit of respect for her in that matter.
This was a particularly powerful demon and Wynne understands that anyone (even her) is at risk of being posessed. She's also a spirit healer and someone who naturally communes with the entities in the fade. Those people are in even more danger than regular mages, she did pretty well against every other demon but she was in this demons realm and he was very powerful.
That was not what I meant. I mean - how the hell she can teach someone about something she has no idea of? Morrigan, whom Wynne view as arrogant, naive and dangerous did a waaay better. Because she has experience with such things, she's not afraid of them. I bet she would've done much better teaching someone but people like Wynne will never understand nor acknowledge that. Their own knowledge is limited by circle's experience, it's teachings, they're full of chantry's prejudice. They had no idea how to help Feynriel, for example, what about that? All because they're nothing more than the templars slaves and afraid of their own shadow.
everyone nags at Morrigan.
True, but she has an arrogance to think she knows better. About magic. Better than Morrigan and Flemeth. I'd say, she deserves a punch or two for that.
Someone so weak and close minded shouldn't talk, really.
Wynne doesn't allow the spirit to warp her mind
Ha, that's not because of her but mostly because of a spirit's personality.
and she herself was not just perfectly happy to be an abomination
How convenient it is - to preach something you yourself don't believe in, then. She speaks of how dangerous both abominations and possesed people could be, how it's for mages own safety to keep them under the watchful eyes of the templars but in the same time she makes an exception for herself. Like, "oh, yes, I'm not feeling like I'm gonna kill you, nothing to worry about. Trust me, I know better". Nothing to respect here either. Were the circumstances a little bit different, she may have ended up just like Anders, or worse. That's the point. People make exception only to themselves and their friends, family, ect. And their beliefes suddenly goes puff - into the thin air. When it really matters.
I really don't see the point in arguing but that's just how I see her. And nothing can change my mind here.
I know it often gets used that way, but I don't entirely see "pro-Circle" as being the same as "pro-enslavement" - mages can be free and members of Circles at the same time, though I spose they wouldn't then be the Circles as we currently know them.
Yep, I think the thing that can be repulsive about the Circle is the lack of self-ownership among its members like treating grown adults like children. I could imagine an Order of Mages with many restrictions but more agency given to its members, the hows and whats still need to be defined though. But one thing that appear simple to me and would avoid many mages going mad is granting more permissions to travel, or for relatives to visit the Circle.
It would demand more resources from the Chantry to escort mages/bring families to the Circle but it might be more beneficial in the long term.
Yep, I think the thing that can be repulsive about the Circle is the lack of self-ownership among its members like treating grown adults like children. I could imagine an Order of Mages with many restrictions but more agency given to its members, the hows and whats still need to be defined though. But one thing that appear simple to me and would avoid many mages going mad is granting more permissions to travel, or for relatives to visit the Circle.
It would demand more resources from the Chantry to escort mages/bring families to the Circle but it might be more beneficial in the long term.
I agree... the Circle needs to be heavily reformed, but it's still a valuable concept. I can't think of a reason why Vivienne would be in favor of an extremely oppressive version of the Circle like the one in Kirkwall, so I wouldn't mind helping her out. Hopefully it won't come down to a choice between unlimited freedom and uncontested Chantry oversight like in DA2 ...
Yep, I think the thing that can be repulsive about the Circle is the lack of self-ownership among its members like treating grown adults like children. I could imagine an Order of Mages with many restrictions but more agency given to its members, the hows and whats still need to be defined though. But one thing that appear simple to me and would avoid many mages going mad is granting more permissions to travel, or for relatives to visit the Circle.
It would demand more resources from the Chantry to escort mages/bring families to the Circle but it might be more beneficial in the long term.
All those restrictions just seem to end up causing more problems than it stops - seeking forbidden knowledge, rebelling, escaping, blood magic. And when that isn't happening, you've got a lot of frustrated people with dangerous powers being treated like children who are ready to explode. And guess what happens then?
Some sort of reform is vital.
Many things. Don't let it happen in the first place, get rid of it, escape, and so on. What she did was seat on her ass and wait for 9 months. She gave up both physicaly and psychologically long before it happened and it reminds me of Fenris and the fog warriors. And I can't have even the slightest bit of respect for her in that matter.
So your options are.
"don't get pregnant"
We have no idea how easy this is, Wynne makes it sound like there is some sort of contraception in thedas (maybe magical) but we don't know what it is, how well it works or the circumstances of how she got pregnant.
"abortion"
If that is even possible I find this suggestion slightly offensive. Don't you think maybe she wanted her child to live even if he was taken from her? She was also young and she may well have had little to no idea about what the consequences would be.
"become an apostate"
She believes in the circle she thinks being an apostate is wrong, why would she do that to her child? In her mind that would probably be worse than what did happen.
If you refuse to understand a character then how the hell do you justify being so judgmental of them?
Ha, that's not because of her but mostly because of a spirit's personality.
Um, source please? Justice was clearly warped by Ander's views on the circle, not the other way around. Sure a spirit of justice may be more prone to radical action than a spirit of faith but don't pretend to know how the spirit affected Wynne when you don't.
That was not what I meant. I mean - how the hell she can teach someone about something she has no idea of? Morrigan, whom Wynne view as arrogant, naive and dangerous did a waaay better. Because she has experience with such things, she's not afraid of them. I bet she would've done much better teaching someone but people like Wynne will never understand nor acknowledge that. Their own knowledge is limited by circle's experience, it's teachings, they're full of chantry's prejudice. They had no idea how to help Feynriel, for example, what about that? All because they're nothing more than the templars slaves and afraid of their own shadow.
Morrigan's view of demons and spirits may or may not be more informed than Wynne's but this is a criticism of the whole circle not just Wynne yet you act like she is particularly bad when you say it's good she didn't become first enchanter. Of course that one example of Morrigan fairing better against one demon does not prove that Morrigan is right about demons and it certainly doesn't verify any of her other views.
Also being an enchanter is allot more than just teaching people about the fade, you shouldn't expect people or even made up characters to be perfect.
I don't know why you expect people to not express their opinions, Morrigan expresses allot of opinions including stuff like "yes kill all of these elves" "no don't help these innocent people" ect. I don't hate her even if I do think she is wrong. Hating Wynne for voicing her views even if she is wrong seems incredibly over the top to me.
The Dalish also failed to help Feynriel, yeah they at least knew what the problem was but it was only Tervinter that could truly help him. So I guess you are saying Tervinter is right then?
I don't see the point in responding to the rest of your comments. It's mostly just ridiculous incoherent ranting. You are entitled to your opinion of course but I am entitled to criticize it for being wrong.
I'm really interested to know what Vivienne's views are. Obviously she is pro circle but she doesn't seem like a Loyalist or an Aequitarian. She sounds allot more like a Lucrosian to me but that doesn't say much about her views other than she cares about wealth and political power.
I still think she's an Aequitarian since they are the more numerous and have the most power/influence of any fraternity in the Circle.
Or, 'was' one since the Circle is no more.
I'm really interested to know what Vivienne's views are. Obviously she is pro circle but she doesn't seem like a Loyalist or an Aequitarian. She sounds allot more like a Lucrosian to me but that doesn't say much about her views other than she cares about wealth and political power.
That's what makes me think she's a Lucrosian, given what little information we have of her.
If I had to pick a second guess, it would be Aequitarian. But their description gives me the impression that the average Aequitarian isn't as 'independent' as Vivienne seems, if that makes sense. So I'm leaning towards Lucrosian for now.
That's what makes me think she's a Lucrosian, given what little information we have of her.
If I had to pick a second guess, it would be Aequitarian. But their description gives me the impression that the average Aequitarian isn't as 'independent' as Vivienne seems, if that makes sense. So I'm leaning towards Lucrosian for now.
Yeah, I agree. Aequitarians seem to be more about doing the right thing and while I don't think Vivienne is actually a bad person I do think she is ruthless and more about greater good and achieving things no matter the cost.
So yeah, Lucrosian seems to suit her better but I can't really be sure.
Don't forget the fact that Wynne's spirit was dying herself so she couldn't assert herself on Wynne the way Justice did with Anders.
Retour en haut
