155 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

So basically the deal is: Don't listen to fans, Bioware! Listen to me instead! It doesn't matter what the writers or anyone else wants! What matters is me! Me! ME!

[Chiramu]

Lack of Dwarven companions is the same as lack of racial equality in the companion list. One token black girl amongst a line up of white people... One tan girl amongst a line up of white people, Origins is a line up of white people, do Qunari count? Both Sten and Iron Bull have weird skin colour. 

[KBomb]

Lack of Dwarven companions is the same as lack of racial equality in the companion list. One token black girl amongst a line up of white people... One tan girl amongst a line up of white people, Origins is a line up of white people, do Qunari count? Both Sten and Iron Bull have weird skin colour. 

Lack of dwarves is the same as lack of racial equality? Why does there have to be an exact equality? Dorian, Vivienne, Scribbles and maybe Blackwall(not sure) are people of color. Varric, Iron Bull, Sera and Solas aren't human. Diverse enough, imo.

[Eudaemonium]

I hate him mostly because he's kind of a douche and a walking "dwarf stereotype".  I like a little more depth in my characters.  He wasn't really all that well fleshed out in my opinion. 

 

But I can understand how he would be a good "bro". 

 

The issue with Oghren is that he's mostly repulsive, but if you take him to certain places like the Fade and the Temple of Sacred Ashes you realise that he's repulsive basically because he's a completely broken person who has nothing left, and so turned to alcohol in order to forget the fact he was this irrelevant nobody. I thought it was an interesting subversion of the typical drunk dwarf who likes booze and battle, because that's what he seems on the surface, but he's really just a depressed alcoholic who uses lewd humour to cover up his utter brokenness. Which isn't to say I'd like to know him, I wouldn't, but I actually find him one of the deeper Origins characters because of the way he isn't really what he seems at all, and his maximum friendship Denerim speech is hands down one of the only things in the game that always makes me cry.

 

In Awakening, however, he's an utter tool and they basically took out all of the depth he had in Origins as well as destroying the poignancy of his goodbye speech. Basically, Awakening utterly ruins his character by reducing him to little more than the lewd drunkard he initially seems to be.

 

I think even David Gaider said that bringing him back was a mistake, so I'm glad that Bioware realises what a horrendous thing they did to his character. This gives me some faith that whatever Varric's return is like, it will not be the Second Third Coming of Oghren.

 

That aside, I do understand the issues with the lack of dwarven diversity. At least we have female dwarves back now...

[Feybrad]

I think, Oghren's Unpopularity also stems from his extremely repulsive english Voice. I admire his Voice Actor greatly, since he did a great Job portraying him that Way, but when I played the Game in English - while most of the English Voice Acing is either equal or superior - I couldn't bring myself to like Oghren.

The same Game with the german Voice Actor though - and suddenly Oghren was not a creepy, ever-drunk Pervert in my Head, but a funny Play on the drunken Dwarf Stereotype with some genuinely heartwarming Moments. In fact, this Character is (to me) the foremost Example on how Voice Acting can change the Perception of a Character.

[Chiramu]

Lack of dwarves is the same as lack of racial equality? Why does there have to be an exact equality? Dorian, Vivienne, Scribbles and maybe Blackwall(not sure) are people of color. Varric, Iron Bull, Sera and Solas aren't human. Diverse enough, imo.

 

Dorian is white. 

 

Vivienne is the token black girl, the scribe girl is black. Blackwall is white. Asian? You can choose to be an Asian PC but there are no Asian NPCs or companions in any Dragon Age game.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Dorian is white. 

 

Not according to the developers.

 

Apparently, the nearest analogy is Indian.

[The Elder King]

Dorian is white.

Vivienne is the token black girl, the scribe girl is black. Blackwall is white. Asian? You can choose to be an Asian PC but there are no Asian NPCs or companions in any Dragon Age game.

Nope, he's not. Check the Bioware responses in the twitter thread and the Dorian thread.

[Gtdef]

You got Shale too, don't be greedy.

[KBomb]

Dorian is white.

Vivienne is the token black girl, the scribe girl is black. Blackwall is white. Asian? You can choose to be an Asian PC but there are no Asian NPCs or companions in any Dragon Age game.

As a couple of people already stated, Dorian is not white.

Thedas doesn't have Inuits either. It doesn't have to contain one of everything just for the sake of it.

It seems people are never happy.
"There are too many humans! More elves!"
"There are too many humans! More dwarves!"
"There are too many elves! More qunari!"

[RedIntifada]

I note that there are several non white human characters (all be it still very much a minority), but are there any non-white dwarves or elves in either of the previous two games and are there any with a prominent role? I can't recall any but I would be more than happy to be proven wrong. Tim Russ did the voice of Keeper Zathrian but even though the actor is clearly non-white, the character was very white.

 

It is an interesting phenomenon that not only do main characters tend to end up being majority white and male, but that if someone is black or Asian then becomes the defining feature, as opposed to being non-white and a dwarf and x... i.e. a diversity in white characters is created but all non-white characters are human.

 

I think it would be nice to see more ethnic groups, queers, poor people and women being represented in cultural products (such as games) and as mentioned earlier in this thread better and more portrayals of dwarfs (particularly given the relationship between them and the real life dwarf community). It would be great for these characters to be more three dimensional and have multiple aspects to them. And Dragon Age is clearly way ahead of many other development companies in that it has more than one non-white companion, several female companions (and other leading characters), queer characters etc.

However at some stage it would be nice for white men not to be at the centre of the universe and have 6 out of 9 companions being women and the majority of dwarves, elves and humans also being non-white (obviously the Qunari is something else entirely). I think discussions on games like Dragon Age which are trying to really move forward, give us a great opportunity to both think how far we have come... but also how far we have to go.

[Feybrad]

*snip*

I generally agree with what you said, but I want to explain, why we won't see ethnic Diversity in fantastic Races:

 

Dwarves being overwhelmingly white is easily explainable with them living underground for basically all their History. I think it is excusable for them to have rather pale Skin. In Terms of Skin Color we have already had great Diversity in Elves - look at Zevran and put Merrill next to him, for example. The fact that we didn't see a truly black Elf is excusable because of the Engine, which apparently didn't really allow for black Characters because of some dubious Lighting issues.

 

However, both Ethnicity and fictional Races go beyond Skin Color. And that is the Problem. Look at Elves - every Game has them looking different than before, especially in regards to facial Features. To apply the facial features of different Ethnicities to them would be very difficult, if not completely impossible and would probably undermine their uniqueness as a fantastic Race that is fundamentally different from Humans. The Elves of Origins might have been able to have Ethnicity appliable to them as they were basically slender Humans with pointy Ears, but both Elves of DA2 and Inquisition are too different from Humans than to have ethnic Featues without derailing their racial Features.

The same problem with Dwarves - they have a fundamentally different Skull Structure from Humans and quite different. Applying Ethnicity would either derail their dwarven Features or distort the Ethnic Features into an unidentifiable Mess. Plus, Dwarves live mostly collected in two Spots in the World, inside rather secluded Communities, mixing only with each other. I don#t see much Opportunity for them to get much Diversity into their Ranks.

 

HOWEVER: I would love to be proven wrong and I admit that a "little" Amount of Diversity may be applicable, which I would like.

[KBomb]

I note that there are several non white human characters (all be it still very much a minority), but are there any non-white dwarves or elves in either of the previous two games and are there any with a prominent role? I can't recall any but I would be more than happy to be proven wrong. Tim Russ did the voice of Keeper Zathrian but even though the actor is clearly non-white, the character was very white.

It is an interesting phenomenon that not only do main characters tend to end up being majority white and male, but that if someone is black or Asian then becomes the defining feature, as opposed to being non-white and a dwarf and x... i.e. a diversity in white characters is created but all non-white characters are human.

I think it would be nice to see more ethnic groups, queers, poor people and women being represented in cultural products (such as games) and as mentioned earlier in this thread better and more portrayals of dwarfs (particularly given the relationship between them and the real life dwarf community). It would be great for these characters to be more three dimensional and have multiple aspects to them. And Dragon Age is clearly way ahead of many other development companies in that it has more than one non-white companion, several female companions (and other leading characters), queer characters etc.

However at some stage it would be nice for white men not to be at the centre of the universe and have 6 out of 9 companions being women and the majority of dwarves, elves and humans also being non-white (obviously the Qunari is something else entirely). I think discussions on games like Dragon Age which are trying to really move forward, give us a great opportunity to both think how far we have come... but also how far we have to go.

Elves are white and will remain so not because of a game engine or preference, but because of lore. If a female elf mated with a human person of color, their offspring would be human. It would only be an elf if she mate with another elf, which would be "white" and would produce another white elf.

[Heimdall]

However at some stage it would be nice for white men not to be at the centre of the universe and have 6 out of 9 companions being women and the majority of dwarves, elves and humans also being non-white (obviously the Qunari is something else entirely). I think discussions on games like Dragon Age which are trying to really move forward, give us a great opportunity to both think how far we have come... but also how far we have to go.

In response to a similar statement, Weekes noted that many if not most of the prominent figures in Dragon Age (The Divine, Empress Celene, ect.) are women.  Females may not be a majority in the party, but they are quite well represented in the seats of power.

[Melca36]

The issue with Oghren is that he's mostly repulsive, but if you take him to certain places like the Fade and the Temple of Sacred Ashes you realise that he's repulsive basically because he's a completely broken person who has nothing left, and so turned to alcohol in order to forget the fact he was this irrelevant nobody. I thought it was an interesting subversion of the typical drunk dwarf who likes booze and battle, because that's what he seems on the surface, but he's really just a depressed alcoholic who uses lewd humour to cover up his utter brokenness. Which isn't to say I'd like to know him, I wouldn't, but I actually find him one of the deeper Origins characters because of the way he isn't really what he seems at all, and his maximum friendship Denerim speech is hands down one of the only things in the game that always makes me cry.

 

In Awakening, however, he's an utter tool and they basically took out all of the depth he had in Origins as well as destroying the poignancy of his goodbye speech. Basically, Awakening utterly ruins his character by reducing him to little more than the lewd drunkard he initially seems to be.

 

I think even David Gaider said that bringing him back was a mistake, so I'm glad that Bioware realises what a horrendous thing they did to his character. This gives me some faith that whatever Varric's return is like, it will not be the Second Third Coming of Oghren.

 

That aside, I do understand the issues with the lack of dwarven diversity. At least we have female dwarves back now...

 

 

 

I loved Oghren in Origins.................HATED him in Awakening.    What they did to him in Awakening was horrible.

 

I did not find him funny or endearing being drunk all the time and the fact he abandons his wife and daughter made it worse.

 

During my 2nd playthrough....I did not even recruit him.

[In Exile]

In response to a similar statement, Weekes noted that many if not most of the prominent figures in Dragon Age (The Divine, Empress Celene, ect.) are women.  Females may not be a majority in the party, but they are quite well represented in the seats of power.

 

But those women aren't very well represented in the game. They're in the background. In three games, we never meet any of these supposedly powerful female women for more than a few minutes, if we meet them at all. And when we met them, they're not in a position of power. Now, Bioware is generally bad at showing NPC competence - so I don't fault them for that, since they love informed abilities - but for example in DA:O when we first meet Anora she's an ineffectual prisoner.

[LobselVith8]

Elves are white and will remain so not because of a game engine or preference, but because of lore. If a female elf mated with a human person of color, their offspring would be human. It would only be an elf if she mate with another elf, which would be "white" and would produce another white elf.

 

Actually, we encounter non-white elves of varying skin tones, from Zevran to Adaia, the late mother of the city elf protagonist.

[KBomb]

Actually, we encounter non-white elves of varying skin tones, from Zevran to Adaia, the late mother of the city elf protagonist.

Just because they aren't pale, doesn't make them not "white". Loads of white people have variant skin color, yet they are still Caucasian. Elves can't have interracial(for better lack of term) offsrpring. Now, perhaps other countries in Thedas have elves of variant skin color. We have only been to Kirkwall and Fereldan and those elves are white. So, it stands to reason all elves native to there are white and that is why we don't see a large variation. Fenris wasn't native to those places, though and he was white.

It certainly is more likely than not that a majority of elves are of Caucasian origins.

[Grieving Natashina]

Actually, we encounter non-white elves of varying skin tones, from Zevran to Adaia, the late mother of the city elf protagonist.

I've got an example handy from DA2.  I've heard this before and I took the screenshot myself.  This is a member of Merrill's clan.  Notice the skin tone of the guy behind her and if you look in the camp, it isn't due to shadowing:

 

[RedIntifada]

Elves are white and will remain so not because of a game engine or preference, but because of lore. If a female elf mated with a human person of color, their offspring would be human. It would only be an elf if she mate with another elf, which would be "white" and would produce another white elf.

 

Presuming neither elf comes from an area where they had darker skin. Elves once greatly outnumbered humans and existed across Thedas and presumably the world so there is no reason why all elf parents should be white or why their elf offspring should be either.

[RedIntifada]

In response to a similar statement, Weekes noted that many if not most of the prominent figures in Dragon Age (The Divine, Empress Celene, ect.) are women.  Females may not be a majority in the party, but they are quite well represented in the seats of power.

 

Sure and there are also minorities that are represented which is great. But non-whites and women deserve more than representation, they deserve that sometimes they be the majority in cultural products... i.e. we should be able to see games which not only have powerful female characters but have a majority of their teams be female in the same way that most games have majority male characters. It would be great if a games had the majority of their companions being non-white or even better having 2 or three characters from the same non-white ethnic background. Because if a game can fit the stories of three or more humans that look white, why shouldn't it be conceivable that a game like Dragon Age has two main characters who look like they are from the sub continent or 2 characters of African appearance?

Having representation is a big step forward, but why can't these groups be "dominant" on occasion especially given that in the world statistically they are.

[David Gaider]

Two things:

 

1) Dwarves and elves do not have to be white. We've had examples of them not being white before, and we'll have many more of them in DAI, There is no reason to try and come up with lore explanations as to why dwarves and elves must be white because those reasons do not exist.

 

2) Drawing parallels between the need for representation of real-life minorities and fantasy races is shaky territory at best. I'd suggest not trying to make a case for wanting to see more dwarves (or elves or qunari) that way, as it does not lend your argument the validity you might think it does.

 

Thanks.

[RedIntifada]

Two things:

 

1) Dwarves and elves do not have to be white. We've had examples of them not being white before, and we'll have many more of them in DAI, There is no reason to try and come up with lore explanations as to why dwarves and elves must be white because those reasons do not exist.

 

2) Drawing parallels between the need for representation of real-life minorities and fantasy races is shaky territory at best. I'd suggest not trying to make a case for wanting to see more dwarves (or elves or qunari) that way, as it does not lend your argument the validity you might think it does.

 

Thanks.

 

Thanks. Can you please give us examples of non-white dwarves and or elves, particularly any that played an important role?

 

As for point two... allegory is always "shaky territory" but dwarfs and dwarfism does seem to have a particular connection for some people as Ekhidna points out:

 

Having a little person in my family who is a gamer I take this pretty seriously, because I see how it affects him. To him, while it's important to be able to play as a Dwarven protagonist, it's just as important that supporting characters aren't stereotypes and purely there for comic relief as the "foolish tinyperson" trope.

It isn't really surprising given that game dwarfs and people with real life dwarfism have roughly the same appearance i.e. shorter limbs compared to torso and head in the same way that humans look like most humans in terms of a "regular" body shape. People have already said they like playing humans because they appear like them (another thread going strong at the moment) so why is it any surprise little people would identify with protagonists that look like them... particularly when dwarfs in TV/Films tend to be played by people with dwarfism.

 

Sure Dwarfs have a particular distinct culture which is "alien" to us, but they are made to be easy to relate to and the same is also true for humans in Thedas whose culture is obviously different to 21st Century earth. The point is our minds adapt and get into the fantasy but having go to points (like a character with similar physical dimensions to us) helps.

Why don't you think it lends validity?

[Direwolf0294]

If Dwarves and Elves don't have to be white, does that mean they can be Asian, Hispanic, Native American etc, or are we strictly talking black/African?