120 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

What to the Dalish want? City Elves want more equal treatment, which I understand but what about Dalish. I suppose they are too focused on gathering relics and knowledge of their fallen civilizations and being disparate clans means they lack any unity or cooperation with each other. I read that they want to wait until the humans fall, but the Tevinter Imperium, the first human civilization, is still around though it is a shadow of its former self it endures. Do they have any plan or do they make it up as they go?

 

That's not quite the case. In modern Thedas, their culture is criminalized, their religion is illegal, and their free mages are sought out by the templars, so their lifestyle requires them to be nomadic, as a matter of survival. While not all the Dalish are the same, some want their own kingdom - a place where they can worship the Creators freely, where the mages aren't under threat, and where they can teach those willing to learn about their culture and history. Human lords or lynch mobs run the clan off if they stay too long in one place, so unless the Hinterlands was given to the People, there isn't an agenda for the Elvhen, aside from staying alive in a continental region where they are constantly under threat. Survival is the necessity at the moment.

[Gervaise]

You've got to admit their long term plan is a bit woolly - as Felassen pointed out.   Back in DAO they were saying that the elves had seen human empires come and go, which was odd really because whilst the Tevinter Imperium is a lot smaller now, it is still there, and the other really big empire, Orlais, at that point was still going strong, even if they had just been run out of Ferelden, so the idea that we will just wait around until the human empires fall and leave an opening is not a terribly good one.   Factor in that whilst they ignore their fellow elves in the cities, those elves are being indoctrinated by an even worse potential empire, that of the Qun, which would have their keepers put on leashes and their mouths sewn shut.  

 

I'm working to a character profile that would see my elf having not always lived among the Dalish and thus neither as committed to their beliefs or as knowledgeable about them.     I think a Keeper wouldn't work because you would be expected to know things that even with WoT and other reference material to hand, would be beyond us.   Our previous Dalish character was young and thus still learning themselves.    To give an example, Marethari used some sort of special healing magic to slow up the onset of the darkspawn taint and also was able in DA2 to send people into the Fade through her own power without the use of lyrium.   Yet she was highly critical of Merrill's use of blood magic, the only other way we had previously been able to get into the Fade, without multiple mages working together, and which required a blood sacrifice.    The number of stories that characters refer to indicate there must still be a vast untapped lore base that a Keeper would be familiar with but we are not.    So it is far more likely that we would just be a First or candidate for First, so we would still be learning.

[Dean_the_Young]

I believe Doom is addressing the elven historical account about what started the war in the first place, which eventually lead to the Exalted March once the two people were already at war. If the elves of the Dales were trying to pacify an enemy that had threatened their religious freedom and way of life since the reign of Drakon, then it puts the entire conflict into a different light.

 

 

The elven historical account, or at least those that even mention the Exalted March at all, would also place the Exalted March after the sack of Orlesian settlements. Claiming that it was to pacify an enemy, for whatever reason, would only further underscore that the Exalted March was a response to the Dales action.

 

 

Doom's point was about the Qunari sharing a somewhat similar philosophy of wanting to convert everyone as the Andrastian Chantry, not about the conflict itself.

 

 

Which is a meaningless comparison without the context that one sought to convert everyone else by the sword in an unprovoked campaign, and the other... hasn't.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Although I see the practicality, I'm worried about the theological implications. The Chant of Light is the cornerstone of Chantry faith. If they can take out parts of the Chant because of political reasons, aren't they admitting that the Chant will never be sung in its complete form and that the Maker will ever come back to the world? I'm sure that the Divine argued with theological reasons to defend her position, but then got mad when the Tevinters did the same.

 

Not at all. The Chant is what they say it is, and is not what they say it isn't. It's no more an admission of eternal failure than the Dalish concession about irrevocably lost history and culture getting in the way of a return to the utopian True Elven past.
 

[LobselVith8]

I think it would be interesting if the PC were initially an outcast (preventing an 'the explosion wiped out another clan to start the game off' scenario) who eventually came to be accepted one of the most knowledgeable elves in Thedas regarding the Dales due to the relatively unfettered access being the head of the Inquisition gives them.

Though, really, now that I write it down that's basically just Merrill's arc with a happier ending, and I don't see them going that route.  Ah well.

 

What about investigating the apparition of Shartan in the temple at the behest of the clan? Whether it's at the request of the Keeper or the hahren? That would permit the elven protagonist to be alone, and to be in the vicinity of the explosion. If the elders think the apparition might be able to divulge some information about their past, it might interest them.

 

Or the Mage-Templar War spilling over into the Hinterlands (which was given to the Dalish in the US Ending for the Dalish Warden, or if the Dalish Hero of Ferelden asked for land to be given to her people) might cause the Dalish to have a stake in seeing the conflict resolved, and send a representative.

 

A little off-topic perhaps, but I'm also wondering how much the player can define the elven protagonist. Will the player be able to choose whether the Dalish mage follows Vir Tanadhal, The Way of Three Trees, or Vir Atish'an, The Way of Peace, as one example in addressing the philosophy of our apostate character?

[Dean_the_Young]

I haven't read any fluff outside of the game's so that might be it. But I'm still fairly certain that what happened is Shartan asked for a territory for the elves, elves lived there just fine for a while, then humans wanted them to have chantries in the Dales, elves said no because they already had their own religion, humans were pissed, conflict arose, humans started an Exalted March. Who is responsible for the conflict is left unclear in the fluff afaik but I tend to favor people who want to be left alone over aggressive converters

 

If you remove the 'just fine', 'because they already had their own religion', ignore how the conflict arose, and aggressive converters, that's spot on. Which is to say, it isn't.

 

 

 

 

And yes, my comparison between the Chantry and the Qun was that both declare war on you if you don't want to convert. Though admittedly the Qun is worse about it

 

 

No exalted march has been declared because of a refusal to convert. There have been Exalted Marches against Tevinter because of religious schism, but this is better understood in the context that Tevinter was effectively seeing the rollback of the Andrastian-led reforms and seeing the return to power of the magisters and slave-holding mageocracy.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

What to the Dalish want? City Elves want more equal treatment, which I understand but what about Dalish. I suppose they are too focused on gathering relics and knowledge of their fallen civilizations and being disparate clans means they lack any unity or cooperation with each other. I read that they want to wait until the humans fall, but the Tevinter Imperium, the first human civilization, is still around though it is a shadow of its former self it endures. Do they have any plan or do they make it up as they go?

Going by Dalish Codex, the Dalish end game is to wait for the Humans to kill eachother and die out, leaving the Dalish to step in and usher in a return to the utopian past. Past that, survival through nomadism and trying to reinvent the culture.

 

That's really it, as far as strategies go. Expect serious debate about whether adopting a kingdom is a good idea: nomadism is survival through avoidance and evacuation, but a kingdom is a stationary target.

[Dean_the_Young]

What about investigating the apparition of Shartan in the temple at the behest of the clan? Whether it's at the request of the Keeper or the hahren? That would permit the elven protagonist to be alone, and to be in the vicinity of the explosion. If the elders think the apparition might be able to divulge some information about their past, it might interest them.

 

Or the Mage-Templar War spilling over into the Hinterlands (which was given to the Dalish in the US Ending for the Dalish Warden, or if the Dalish Hero of Ferelden asked for land to be given to her people) might cause the Dalish to have a stake in seeing the conflict resolved, and send a representative.

 

A little off-topic perhaps, but I'm also wondering how much the player can define the elven protagonist. Will the player be able to choose whether the Dalish mage follows Vir Tanadhal, The Way of Three Trees, or Vir Atish'an, The Way of Peace, as one example in addressing the philosophy of our apostate character?

 

Probably not any more than Andrastian characters get to debate Andrastian theology, or Dwarven characters the Stone.

[LobselVith8]

You've got to admit their long term plan is a bit woolly - as Felassen pointed out.   Back in DAO they were saying that the elves had seen human empires come and go, which was odd really because whilst the Tevinter Imperium is a lot smaller now, it is still there, and the other really big empire, Orlais, at that point was still going strong, even if they had just been run out of Ferelden, so the idea that we will just wait around until the human empires fall and leave an opening is not a terribly good one.   Factor in that whilst they ignore their fellow elves in the cities, those elves are being indoctrinated by an even worse potential empire, that of the Qun, which would have their keepers put on leashes and their mouths sewn shut. 

 

Felassan makes his disdain for the Dalish abundantly clear time and time again. Regardless, the Dalish aren't all the same. Some don't even want to give up the nomadic lifestyle to settle down in a new kingdom. As Taniel wrote, "The keeper says that one day the Dalish will find a home that we can call our own. But why? Why should we tie ourselves to stone constructions like the humans and the dwarves? What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?"

 

A nomadic lifestyle is a matter of survival. While Keeper Gisharel writes that the clans should wait until the human kingdoms are gone, the matter of fact is that the nomadic lifestyle is a necessity. As Merrill points out, the templars pursue the clans for their mages, and the humans are hostile to Dalish when they stay in one area for too long (which is why she cautioned the Keeper over keeping the clan in Sundermount for so long, when it exposed them to danger from the nearby humans). This is even addressed by the developers, who say human lords or mobs will attack the Dalish when they stay too long in one area, and provide it as the reason why the Dalish usually leave before that becomes an issue.

 

The plan, for the time being, is simply to survive.

 

I'm working to a character profile that would see my elf having not always lived among the Dalish and thus neither as committed to their beliefs or as knowledgeable about them.     I think a Keeper wouldn't work because you would be expected to know things that even with WoT and other reference material to hand, would be beyond us.   Our previous Dalish character was young and thus still learning themselves.    To give an example, Marethari used some sort of special healing magic to slow up the onset of the darkspawn taint and also was able in DA2 to send people into the Fade through her own power without the use of lyrium.   Yet she was highly critical of Merrill's use of blood magic, the only other way we had previously been able to get into the Fade, without multiple mages working together, and which required a blood sacrifice.    The number of stories that characters refer to indicate there must still be a vast untapped lore base that a Keeper would be familiar with but we are not.    So it is far more likely that we would just be a First or candidate for First, so we would still be learning.

 

While I think the elven protagonist won't be the Keeper of the clan (since I think it would be easier for the main character to assume the mantle of Inquisitor if there isn't a heavy burden of responsibility to care for a clan), I image the protagonist will be able to address a number of things that the player may not necessarily be aware of, similar to the elven Warden condemning the Chantry for invading the Dales over their refusal to convert, or the Dalish Warden explaining to Alistair what happens to the dead.

[TK514]

What about investigating the apparition of Shartan in the temple at the behest of the clan? Whether it's at the request of the Keeper or the hahren? That would permit the elven protagonist to be alone, and to be in the vicinity of the explosion. If the elders think the apparition might be able to divulge some information about their past, it might interest them.

 

Or the Mage-Templar War spilling over into the Hinterlands (which was given to the Dalish in the US Ending for the Dalish Warden, or if the Dalish Hero of Ferelden asked for land to be given to her people) might cause the Dalish to have a stake in seeing the conflict resolved, and send a representative.

 

A little off-topic perhaps, but I'm also wondering how much the player can define the elven protagonist. Will the player be able to choose whether the Dalish mage follows Vir Tanadhal, The Way of Three Trees, or Vir Atish'an, The Way of Peace, as one example in addressing the philosophy of our apostate character?

 

I'm starting to feel like this Temple is where player choice goes to die, actually.  First it was Leliana, now everyone seems to know about it, regardless of if you killed the only people who would have told anyone where to find it.  If they make the Hinterlands into Elflandia, that's just another player choice disregarded, because it should only have happened if the HoF was Dalish and either dies or specifically requests it, which won't always be the case.

 

Beyond that, I don't really have any issue with your scenario regarding being sent there to interview the alleged shade of Shartan.  It's as good a speculation as any.  I'm trying to remember what the Guardian's test was, aside from the obligatory 'fight yourself' battle, since that would obviously be an impediment to anyone trying to get further.

 

To be honest, I would be surprised if any of us really gets to have the larger effects we're hoping for, unless BioWare has decided to toss player choice out the window completely and go with their own canon from here on out.  There are just too many potential world changing states.

[LobselVith8]

Probably not any more than Andrastian characters get to debate Andrastian theology, or Dwarven characters the Stone.

 

It was somewhat possible to do so in Origins, at least in terms of the Andrastian faith. The Cousland protagonist can make it clear he is religiously Andrastian, or that he doesn't believe in the Maker; the Surana recruit can say the Maker isn't his god; The Warden can dismiss the tale of the Golden City in conversation with Wynne; The Warden can tell Leliana she prefers her stance on the Andrastian faith and the Maker to the one espoused by the Chantry of Andraste, or oppose her and support what is preached by the Chantry; and The Warden can tell Leliana she doesn't think Andraste was divine, or affirm Andrastian doctrine in saying Andraste fought for all of them.

 

Some companions get into discussion that veers into religious belief as well. Leliana and Morrigan debate the existence of a higher power, while Merrill and Anders discuss their conflicting cultural and religious views.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dismissing belief in a god is not a religious debate. The Dalish position to that would be in not believing in the Creators, not philosophical lines of reasoning.

 

That companions can have thoughtful debates amongst themselves does not, and never has, entailed the player character being able to participate.

[Doominike]

Didn't they say you could interact during banter in DA:I ?

[LobselVith8]

I'm starting to feel like this Temple is where player choice goes to die, actually.  First it was Leliana, now everyone seems to know about it, regardless of if you killed the only people who would have told anyone where to find it.  If they make the Hinterlands into Elflandia, that's just another player choice disregarded, because it should only have happened if the HoF was Dalish and either dies or specifically requests it, which won't always be the case.

 

I think it's intended to give some "religious significance" to the player surviving the cataclysm, but I see what you mean. However, this has happened before. Anders and Justice still meet, even if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes. No explanation is given to address how this is even remotely possible.

 

That said, I do wonder how this will be reconciled for the players who sided with Kolgrim and allowed the Dragon Cult to grow in prominence, especially if the dragon is still roaming around free.

 

As for the Hinterlands, I suggested that as an alternative for players who have performed the Dalish Boon with their Warden. However, I'm concerned that the Dalish Boon will receive the Magi Boon treatment, and that a flimsy excuse will be given to say it simply didn't work out, so that the area is basically the same, even for the players who specifically requested the People to get their own land.

 

Beyond that, I don't really have any issue with your scenario regarding being sent there to interview the alleged shade of Shartan.  It's as good a speculation as any.  I'm trying to remember what the Guardian's test was, aside from the obligatory 'fight yourself' battle, since that would obviously be an impediment to anyone trying to get further.

 

Correctly answering questions from the apparitions, fighting your own doppelganger, and trusting your friends to establish a bridge to cross.

 

To be honest, I would be surprised if any of us really gets to have the larger effects we're hoping for, unless BioWare has decided to toss player choice out the window completely and go with their own canon from here on out.  There are just too many potential world changing states.

 

Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic about the Magi Boon even being mentioned for my run, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's ignored entirely (like it was in Awakening and Witch Hunt). I'm curious about the Dalish Boon for players who chose that boon and expect it to be addressed in their run, since the US Ending for the Dalish Warden is Bioware's canon for players who aren't importing their own storyline into Inquisition.

[Mistic]

That companions can have thoughtful debates amongst themselves does not, and never has, entailed the player character being able to participate.

 

And that is a shame, really, but I suppose it's part of the deal. If it were Planescape: Torment... but even then it was a bit limited.

 

That's another reason I prefer the Dalish Mage to be a First. A Keeper is supposed to be knowledgeable not only about magic, but Dalish lore and religion too. It would be pretty jarring for a Keeper to accept the limited answers provided while companions like the self-taught Solas or Cole himself are taking part in serious conversations about the nature of the Fade, spirits and what not.

[Lorien19]

And that is a shame, really, but I suppose it's part of the deal. If it were Planescape: Torment... but even then it was a bit limited.

 

That's another reason I prefer the Dalish Mage to be a First. A Keeper is supposed to be knowledgeable not only about magic, but Dalish lore and religion too. It would be pretty jarring for a Keeper to accept the limited answers provided while companions like the self-taught Solas or Cole himself are taking part in serious conversations about the nature of the Fade, spirits and what not.

I 'd say the first also know their share of Dalish lore and religion too,since they're keepers in training.Besides we've seen younger keeper's in the past,like Lanaya.

[Mistic]

I 'd say the first also know their share of Dalish lore and religion too,since they're keepers in training.Besides we've seen younger keeper's in the past,like Lanaya.

 

True, but that share can be easily explained, if so they wish, by the player's meta-knowledge and/or completed by codex entries. However, given their position, it's pretty clear that Keepers as characters inside the game know more that players outside.

 

As for Lanaya, hers was a special case. She didn't achieve the position of Keeper because Zathrian stepped down once he realized she was prepared to do the job, but because he died. Given that there was no other candidate, she got it by default. I'm pretty sure there are still many things she must learn, but she'll do it now from the Keeper's position.

 

So Occam's razor now: what is more likely? A First that is still learning or a Keeper who is supposed to know those things but due to special circumstances doesn't?

[Gervaise]

What happens to the boons is pretty much covered by the encounter with Alistair in DA2.  

 

With the mage boon, he wanted to have a free Circle but was not strong enough politically to do so.   Ferelden was considerably weakened by the Blight so would not be in a position to resist an Orlesian backed Exalted March if the Chantry got nasty about it.    So instead he concentrated on working with mage apostates outside of the Circles and assisting them; hence Meredith chewing him out about it.

 

With the Dalish boon, if Merrill is present, he says something about how he is sorry that didn't work out, particularly as he owed it to his friend (I think this is when the Warden does the Ultimate Sacrifice so would fit in with the canon version going forward).   This implies that something has gone wrong with it.   The epilogue indicated the tensions were there almost from the start and that on the leadership of Lanya kept a lid on things.   May be they escalated or may be she was killed and that was the trigger for a conflict between Dalish and humans that resulted in the Dalish returned to their nomadic existence.   So if we find there is no Dalish homeland in DAI, this would account for it and may be whether Alistair or Anora is in charge, they will explain what went wrong.

 

Funnily enough Merrill says to Hawke something about if you were a leader of the Dalish they might have a homeland by now and then reflects that may be it is a good thing they don't because that would give the humans something to aim at.    It is certainly true that not all Dalish want to give up their nomadic life and feel safer that way.   Nevertheless they teach the idea that they are preserving the culture against the time when they will have a homeland and they can teach other elves who want to join them.     I just feel that there won't be much point if the other elves have been absorbed by the Qun.     If the Qun can infiltrate and teach the elves under the noses of the human rulers, why couldn't the Dalish do the same?

[LobselVith8]

What happens to the boons is pretty much covered by the encounter with Alistair in DA2.  

 

With the mage boon, he wanted to have a free Circle but was not strong enough politically to do so.   Ferelden was considerably weakened by the Blight so would not be in a position to resist an Orlesian backed Exalted March if the Chantry got nasty about it.    So instead he concentrated on working with mage apostates outside of the Circles and assisting them; hence Meredith chewing him out about it.

 

The fact that the Magi Boon originally lead to Cullen losing his mind and killing a few mages before becoming a wandering madman, and no independent Circle of Orzammar forming despite Dagna's research, leads me to believe it was simply rectonned post-Origins.

 

ith the Dalish boon, if Merrill is present, he says something about how he is sorry that didn't work out, particularly as he owed it to his friend (I think this is when the Warden does the Ultimate Sacrifice so would fit in with the canon version going forward).   This implies that something has gone wrong with it.   The epilogue indicated the tensions were there almost from the start and that on the leadership of Lanya kept a lid on things.   May be they escalated or may be she was killed and that was the trigger for a conflict between Dalish and humans that resulted in the Dalish returned to their nomadic existence.   So if we find there is no Dalish homeland in DAI, this would account for it and may be whether Alistair or Anora is in charge, they will explain what went wrong.

 

In other words, the Hinterlands will be a human-dominated region, whether or not the Hinterlands was gifted to the Dalish with a Dalish Warden. That sounds a lot like what happened to the Magi Boon - the royal boon that had consequences resulting from the choice is handwaved to accommodate the current storyline.

 

Funnily enough Merrill says to Hawke something about if you were a leader of the Dalish they might have a homeland by now and then reflects that may be it is a good thing they don't because that would give the humans something to aim at.    It is certainly true that not all Dalish want to give up their nomadic life and feel safer that way.   Nevertheless they teach the idea that they are preserving the culture against the time when they will have a homeland and they can teach other elves who want to join them.     I just feel that there won't be much point if the other elves have been absorbed by the Qun.     If the Qun can infiltrate and teach the elves under the noses of the human rulers, why couldn't the Dalish do the same?

 

Because the Dalish don't force the issue. You want to learn about the culture, history, and religion of the People? They are more than willing to teach you, as we see with Pol and Aneirin. You want to leave, they respect your agency and don't stop you.

[The Ascendant]

I wonder how other Dalish will react to a Dalish Inquisitor. They seemed respectful and proud of the Dalish Warden, would they offer the same deference to a Dalish Inquisitor, especially if we are a Keeper or First? 

[Mistic]

I wonder how other Dalish will react to a Dalish Inquisitor. They seemed respectful and proud of the Dalish Warden, would they offer the same deference to a Dalish Inquisitor, especially if we are a Keeper or First? 

 

I don't see why not. The change was evident in DA:O. Other Wardens were greeted coldly (sigh, my poor elven mage). However, every time the Dalish Warden appeared, it was "Andaran atish'an" and other welcoming greetings.

 

What I found more interesting was that only a handful of city elves recognized the Dalish Warden as, well, Dalish.