384 réponses à ce sujet

[xyzmkrysvr]

Personally, I let them live because I don't like killing people outside of combat, and figure that they can be useful and possibly find redemption. I would do the same for a chevalier, but would engage with them to ensure that they do find redemption. The inability of which to do is extremely annoying for Sten and Zevran; I don't like either of them and feel that their natures are overly glossed-over by the narrative and dialogue options.

  

I'm the same way. That's why I'm kind of surprised so many people here are so quick to judge and condemn the chevaliers. In my opinion, it make perfect sense to include a chevalier companion: imagine the interactions between him and Sera... They would be at each other's throats! And it would be really cool for the chevalier to be initially unapologetic for the initiation rite, but, after getting to know Sera, he now has a face to put on the plight of city elves and eventually sees the light and comes to regret his actions. So we actually witness his character evolution, making it different than Dorian who has already come to the conclusion that Tevinter is in dire need of reform. And maybe the story arc of a chevalier companion would be one that the Inquisitor could shape, in the sense that we could help them atone for their past crimes or something.... I think it would be interesting, but that's just me *shrugs*

You mean the same family whose deaths haunt Sten? And why should I kill a man or woman for what they might do? I should just kill everyone them since they may someday kill somebody. 
 
And for all I, and even Zevran knows, none of those people he killed were innocent. The one who is known to be innocent by Zevran haunts him. 
 
In both cases, Sten and Zevran were not sworn to defend the people they killed. Meanwhile the Chevaliers, who are to protect Orlesian citizens, have to pass an initiation that has them kill an innocent Orlesian citizen. 

You make some good points about Sten and Zevran, although the Qunari are certain to invade - Sten doesn't say they "might". He even tells the Warden that he hopes not to see him/her on the battlefield... He's basically admitting that they plan to invade and slaughter anyone unwilling to convert - it's not an baseless threat, it's a fact. Knowing that, why would you allow him to continue to enjoy the luxury of living? If you were a U.S. soldier in Iraq and you met a Muslim who informed you of an imminent terrorist threat on American soil and he said "we are going to continue our reign of terror in America until we kill all the infidels!" would you share cookies with him and sit by a campfire together? Unlikely.

And are city elves really considered Orlesian citizens? (I'm legitimately curious...) I don't think they share the same status or rights as other citizens, and that's how the chevalier justify killing them.

As I told leaguer, I will ask them about their feelings towards what they did. If they regret and want to make amends and/or 'restore the glory of the Chevaliers', fine. If they still see their order as anything but the hypocritical glorified thugs that the Chevaliers are and don't need to change however, then they will either be killed or imprisoned.

So you'd kill someone just because they don't see eye to eye with you? That sounds just as closed minded as the Qunari... Not every culture shares the same values or morals; that doesn't mean they should be executed because of the way they were raised. Just because they aren't willing to renounce their cultural identity immediately upon meeting you doesn't mean they should be condemned to death on the spot. You should see it as an opportunity to educate them, instead. Help them see the error of their ways.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 You make some good points about Sten and Zevran, although the Qunari are certain to invade - Sten doesn't say they "might". He even tells the Warden that he hopes not to see him/her on the battlefield... He's basically admitting that they plan to invade and slaughter anyone unwilling to convert - it's not an baseless threat, it's a fact. Knowing that, why would you allow him to continue to enjoy the luxury of living? If you were a U.S. soldier in Iraq and you met a Muslim who informed you of an imminent terrorist threat on American soil and he said "we are going to continue our reign of terror in America until we kill all the infidels!" would you share cookies with him and sit by a campfire together? Unlikely.

And are city elves really considered Orlesian citizens? (I'm legitimately curious...) I don't think they share the same status or rights as other citizens, and that's how the chevalier justify killing them.

If that man in your example(rather not talk real-world politics here)had just helped me stop the apocalypse, as Sten did the Warden with the Blight, I'd be much more lenient yes. He earned that much. 

 

And yes, the City Elves are citizens. Orlais condemns slavery, though some nobles including Chevaliers practice it in secret, so anyone living in their borders are citizens of that nation. Racism doesn't change that. 

 

 

So you'd kill someone just because they don't see eye to eye with you? That sounds just as closed minded as the Qunari... Not every culture shares the same values or morals; that doesn't mean they should be executed because of the way they were raised. Just because they aren't willing to renounce their cultural identity immediately upon meeting you doesn't mean they should be condemned to death on the spot. You should see it as an opportunity to educate them, instead. Help them see the error of their ways.

Hence my "or imprison them" part. I can educate them when they are behind bars, and those who would be abused by them are safe until then. Me killing them will only usually be either in combat or if they've done something monstrous like Alrik. 

[Master Shiori]

I'm not under the impression that Orlais is the only thing keeping the Qunari at bay, or the only thing preventing a Qunari victory over the rest of Thedas; in fact, I recall the historical account reading that the mages were the "greatest advantage" against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, not Orlais. I'm willing to take the chance at letting the civil war cripple the Orlesian Empire if it means that it's not in a position to harm Ferelden and an independent Dales.

Last time the Qunari went to war, it took the combined might of Andrastean nations and Tevinter Imperium to have a chance of stopping them. Regardless of your views of them, Orlais is the largest and, militarily, strongest Andrastean nation in Thedas. Having it be crippled or destroyed certainly wouldn't improve the chances of stopping the next Qunari invasion. 

 

Mages may be an advantage, but that advantage only last as long as there's a sizeable wall of regular soldiers between them and the Qunari. And guess who's got the most manpower to provide such a wall of protection for mages?

 

Hell, why wait on the Qunari? From what I understand, Nevarra could be knocking on Orlais' door pretty soon, if the Pentaghasts can put the right guy or gal on the throne.

Nevarra could just as easily be the next nation to descend into a civil war. Especially since there are a dozen potential contenders from both the Pentaghast and Van Markham families, and the one person with the best claim to the throne (the king's brother) has no desire to rule whatsoever.

[Mistic]

I have to say that, although I'd prefer to have a peaceful and stable Orlais, the arguments in favour of saving the country just because they are crucial to keep the Qunari at bay or similar things fall flat for me. After all, history in Thedas proves that it shouldn't be a reason to keep the status quo.

 

Before the Qunari, the Darkspawn are the real threat to the world. Should Andraste have not marched against Tevinter because the Imperium was the most powerful country in Thedas and the only one able to stop the Darkspawn if a new Blight happened? No, she marched and the Second Blight was beaten thanks to the efforts of the new Orlesian Empire. And when the fourth Blight came, Tevinter didn't do anything and Orlais only sent a token force. It was Garahel, the elven warden, who created an army of Grey Wardens, Anders and Free Marchers and defeated the Archdemon.

 

Wynne, who is not suspicious of being an evil person or not wanting to save the world, put it very clearly when she was asked why she didn't tell anyone about Gaspard's plans in Asunder: "Because I am Fereldan, for one. I have no love for the Orlesian Empire, so the thought of it falling to pieces causes me no distress. Plus, there are other benefits if there is war here".

[The Baconer]

With no Orlesian Empire the region would most likely be nothing but squabbling city states who'd catch the business real quick from the Qun. Plus, since the Chantry was a creation of Drakon the Circle wouldn't exist either.

 

The Circle predates Drakon.

 

And all this talk about Thedas' chance without Orlais is irrelevant. If they actually let us deconstruct the Empire (which is not likely), it still won't matter given the presence of another god-mode Player Character.

[DarthLaxian]

After the Masked Empire I was sort of hoping that Michel would be a companion but there you go.   We do not know Blackwall's backstory.   May be he was being trained as a Chevalier and it was his disgust at their training methods that led him to become a Warden.     I think he is definitely meant to be Orlesian in origin, if the letter from one of the Orlesian Wardens named Blackwall at the time of the Ferelden Blight was the same person, and it seems too much of a coincidence if it were not.

 

Could still be him ^^ (after all: Michel is adept at hiding who he is (an orphaned street boy as far as I remember) and he was/is talented enough in fighting that he could attract the wardens attention...and with their mandate, he could continue his demon hunt with less red-tape in the way (as the Grey Wardens are outside normal laws))

 

Still, I would really have liked to have a Chevalier (reformed (in that he dislikes how some of his order act and disgusted by their treatment of the elfs) or not...hell, some arrogant jerk of a character (who is still a good person at heart) would have been nice to have

 

greetings LAX

[LobselVith8]

The Qunari crushed Tevinter, Rivain and Antiva in a decade (6:32 to 6:42 Steel) and occupied Tevinter itself for 40 years. It took a massive Tevinter uprising and another 40 years to force the Qunari back toward Seheron. The Tevinter's clearly used their mages freely during that period - it is Tevinter, after all - and that mattered very little to the Qunari. There was an uneasy stalemate starting in 7:25 Storm, but nothing changed until the Exalted March was declared (which is when we can infer that Orlais brought its military might to bear - though it may have been in conjunction with Neverra, the Anderfells, and Ferelden). 

 

It was apparently the combined efforts of all the nations working in unison to oust the Qunari; unlike some of the earlier posts, I don't think Orlais is the reason that keeps the Qunari at bay.

 

It took another 60 years for the Orlesian + other forces to push the Qunari back, and as we know from DA2 it wasn't the military force but rather the loss of the Tome of Koslun and the outright genocides in Rivain that led to peace. The Orlesians used mages to counter the superior technology of the Qunari, but the Qunari had already crushed mages before. From the codex:

 

"The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire.

 

The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines, although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to Andraste's teachings."

 

The codex just tells us that the biggest advantage for the Chantry was the mages, and that it was the overwhelming numbers of (clearly) non-mages that helped to turn the tide. 

 

I wasn't disputing the numbers involved during the New Exalted Marches, I disagreed with the notion that Orlais is the only thing keeping the Qunari from invading Thedas.

[xyzmkrysvr]

 

If that man in your example(rather not talk real-world politics here)had just helped me stop the apocalypse, as Sten did the Warden with the Blight, I'd be much more lenient yes. He earned that much. 

 

And yes, the City Elves are citizens. Orlais condemns slavery, though some nobles including Chevaliers practice it in secret, so anyone living in their borders are citizens of that nation. Racism doesn't change that. 

 

 

Hence my "or imprison them" part. I can educate them when they are behind bars, and those who would be abused by them are safe until then. Me killing them will only usually be either in combat or if they've done something monstrous like Alrik. 

 

 

Touche.  

But what if you were presented with a case where you needed the assistance of the chevaliers to stop the demons from pouring out of the Breach, and they only way they would agree to assist you is if their leader traveled with you as a companion? Would you accept his help even if he was unrepentant about the chevalier's methods?

 

You say you would be willing to educate such an individual "behind bars", but would you offer him a chance at redemption by allowing him to help you "stop the apocalypse" in the hopes that he sees the light along your journey together? Or do you consider the crimes of the chevalier so monstrous that they all deserve to die?

 

This is all just hypothetical of course - I'm just curious to see what it would take for a Dragon Age fan to allow a chevalier--even one who isn't apologetic--to join up with the Inquisition. 

 

I, personally, would let any able-bodied man or woman to help my cause, regardless of their history or past crimes. But then again, I loved HK-47 from KOTOR and he was a pure psychopath  

 

[LobselVith8]

Last time the Qunari went to war, it took the combined might of Andrastean nations and Tevinter Imperium to have a chance of stopping them. Regardless of your views of them, Orlais is the largest and, militarily, strongest Andrastean nation in Thedas. Having it be crippled or destroyed certainly wouldn't improve the chances of stopping the next Qunari invasion. 

 

The fact that Celene wanted to regain the province of Ferelden (through a marriage with King Cailan) to stand in unison against Nevarra makes me suspect this may not be the case anymore. Regardless, I'm not sharing the opinion of some that Thedas is doomed without Orlais.

 

Mages may be an advantage, but that advantage only last as long as there's a sizeable wall of regular soldiers between them and the Qunari. And guess who's got the most manpower to provide such a wall of protection for mages?

 

The Inquisition, the organization with a military that's going to stretch from the kingdom of Ferelden to the nation of Orlais? It's certainly a possibility. In conjunction with Nevarra, the Free Marches, and anyone else who isn't interested in submitting to the Qun, like the Circle mages and the Dalish.

[Former_Fiend]

From what I understand, the difference in military strength between Nevarra and Orlais is marginal, at best. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

 

 

Touche.

But what if you were presented with a case where you needed the assistance of the chevaliers to stop the demons from pouring out of the Breach, and they only way they would agree to assist you is if their leader traveled with you as a companion? Would you accept his help even if he was unrepentant about the chevalier's methods?

 

You say you would be willing to educate such an individual "behind bars", but would you offer him a chance at redemption by allowing him to help you "stop the apocalypse" in the hopes that he sees the light along your journey together? Or do you consider the crimes of the chevalier so monstrous that they all deserve to die?

 

This is all just hypothetical of course - I'm just curious to see what it would take for a Dragon Age fan to allow a chevalier--even one who isn't apologetic--to join up with the Inquisition. 

 

I, personally, would let any able-bodied man or woman to help my cause, regardless of their history or past crimes. But then again, I loved HK-47 from KOTOR and he was a pure psychopath

 

If I needed the assistance, I could see having them conscripted but kept under close observation. If any of them so much as tries their old habits, that one would be executed on the spot. 

 

Depends on the chevalier. If they just did the initiation murder, maybe. But if they did that as well as ever be like the ones who almost raped Liselle, then no those one would stay in prison. And I do consider the crimes so monstrous that the organization needs to be torn down. There would be no Chevalier Order when I am done.

[Former_Fiend]

In regards to the original question, my objection to having a chevalier on the team isn't so much a moral one as it is that I would find a chevalier companion to be much more mundane and much less interesting than the companions we've ended up with.

 

Also, and this is just my opinion, but despite what's presented in The Masked Empire, I think the chevaliers are much better off represented as not living up to their hype. I think the story's more interesting with them as competent, capable warriors, but not nearly as good as they think they are, or tell everyone they are. Makes for a better reflection of Orlais' own decline and over-inflated sense of importance. 

[xyzmkrysvr]

Could still be him ^^ (after all: Michel is adept at hiding who he is (an orphaned street boy as far as I remember) and he was/is talented enough in fighting that he could attract the wardens attention...and with their mandate, he could continue his demon hunt with less red-tape in the way (as the Grey Wardens are outside normal laws))

 

Still, I would really have liked to have a Chevalier (reformed (in that he dislikes how some of his order act and disgusted by their treatment of the elfs) or not...hell, some arrogant jerk of a character (who is still a good person at heart) would have been nice to have

 

greetings LAX

 

That's an interesting theory, but Blackwall can't be the same person as Michel: Blackwall must have been a Grey Warden for a loooong time, because (if I remember correctly), he is nearing the time of The Calling... 

 

But I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone in wishing we had a chevalier companion! And I totally agree: I think it would be fun to have a pompous Orlesian ****** join up with the Inquisition (obviously I would expect there to be character development and evolution over the course of the game, but my first impression of a lot of the companions from DA:O was radically different when I compare it to how I feel about them at the end of the game.) 

[Former_Fiend]

Blackwall was a high ranking grey warden during the Fifth Blight; which means he's been with the order well over ten years, which means he is not Michel. 

 

And Michel is only good at hiding who he is because he had a rich patron pay someone to forge an identity for him. He's not so good as to have been living a double life as a grey warden for ten years. 

 

I suppose it is possible Blackwall was a chevalier before joining the wardens, but by all appearances, that part of his life will be insignificant next to the warden part.

[The Baconer]

Touche.

But what if you were presented with a case where you needed the assistance of the chevaliers to stop the demons from pouring out of the Breach, and they only way they would agree to assist you is if their leader traveled with you as a companion? Would you accept his help even if he was unrepentant about the chevalier's methods?

 

Will he/she and those who follow him/her renounce all titles and claims and put the totality of their resources at the Inquisition's disposal?

[xyzmkrysvr]

If I needed the assistance, I could see having them conscripted but kept under close observation. If any of them so much as tries their old habits, that one would be executed on the spot. Depends on the chevalier. If they just did the initiation murder, maybe. But if they did that as well as ever be like the ones who almost raped Liselle, then no those one would stay in prison. And I do consider the crimes so monstrous that the organization needs to be torn down. There would be no Chevalier Order when I am done.

 

Don't you think that's a bit extreme? Look at how Aveline was able to reform the Kirkwall guards. Tearing down the entire Chevalier Order just because their training methods are disagreeable to you would be counterproductive because you might need elite warriors to help fight. I think blood magic is sick and wrong, but I let Merril stay with my team because she was useful. 

 

In regards to the original question, my objection to having a chevalier on the team isn't so much a moral one as it is that I would find a chevalier companion to be much more mundane and much less interesting than the companions we've ended up with.

 

 

I could see how you might think that, but have a little more faith in Bioware's writers! If they had wanted to create a compelling chevalier companion with an interesting back story and intriguing personality, they could easily do it. Just look at Varric. What makes a random surface dwarf with a crossbow so interesting at first?? In my opinion, a knight in shining armor who is haunted by his past but too arrogant to admit that he did anything wrong is already much more interesting. 

 

Will he/she and those who follow him/her renounce all titles and claims and put the totality of their resources at the Inquisition's disposal?

 

Why is that necessary? Why can't they join the Inquisition until the threat is neutralized and then go back to their old life? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Don't you think that's a bit extreme? Look at how Aveline was able to reform the Kirkwall guards. Tearing down the entire Chevalier Order just because their training methods are disagreeable to you would be counterproductive because you might need elite warriors to help fight. I think blood magic is sick and wrong, but I let Merril stay with my team because she was useful. 

No, I don't.

 

The Chevalier Order is corrupted from the core and has been for decades at least. They are not the only skilled warriors out there, and those orders can train soldiers just as well. As for Aveline, you know she got rid of any guard who didn't see what the former Guard Captain did as wrong, right? And Merrill was fine because she never used other people's blood for her rituals but instead sacrificed her own blood. Huge difference between someone like that and those like the Chevaliers. 

[The Baconer]

Why is that necessary? Why can't they join the Inquisition until the threat is neutralized and then go back to their old life?

Go back to the same sinful excess and debauchery that earned them the Makers scorn in the first place? This event is a test, and only those who choose to return to the Maker's light can be saved.

[Sir DeLoria]

Yeah, I'm dissapointed by the lack of real 'knight' type characters in DA games in general. There were so many awesome knights in Dark Souls (Solaire of Astora, Oscar of Astor, Siegmeyer and Sieglinde of Catarina, Lautrec of Carim etc) I don't get why BW can't get a single one right.

FROM Soft spoiled me...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I'm dissapointed by the lack of real 'knight' type characters in DA games in general. There were so many awesome knights in Dark Souls (Solaire of Astora, Oscar of Astor, Siegmeyer and Sieglinde of Catarina, Lautrec of Carim etc) I don't get why BW can't get a single one right.

FROM Soft spoiled me...

Um, what was Alistair, Oghren, and Loghain in DAO then? Or Aveline and Carver in DA2? Or Blackwall and Cassandra in this game? 

[Sir DeLoria]

Um, what was Alistair, Oghren, and Loghain in DAO then? Or Aveline and Carver in DA2? Or Blackwall and Cassandra in this game?

Loghain comes closest. While I'm a huge fan of Alistair, both he and Oghren didn't really match the honor coded and noble personality. Neither were actual knights either.

Aveline never struck me as anywhere close, she seemed way more like a soldier(which she was after all). Carver was better, but it's a pity he was only available to mages and only in the first act.

We don't know much about the personality of either Blackwall or Cass yet. My hopes are high for Blackwall, Cass seems more like a cleric-warrior.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Loghain comes closest. While I'm a huge fan of Alistair, both he and Oghren didn't really match the honor coded and noble personality. Neither were actual knights either.

Aveline never struck me as anywhere close, she seemed way more like a soldier(which she was after all). Carver was better, but it's a pity he was only available to mages and only in the first act.

We don't know much about the personality of either Blackwall or Cass yet. My hopes are high for Blackwall, Cass seems more like a cleric-warrior.

From the character blurb and the interview with Blackwall's writer, he seems to pretty much be a walking cliche of knights. 

[The Baconer]

What would even make Lautrec a proper knight within that criteria?

[xyzmkrysvr]

From the character blurb and the interview with Blackwall's writer, he seems to pretty much be a walking cliche of knights. 

 

Exactly, which made me hopeful that he was selected from the ranks of chevaliers! Despite their bad reputation, I find it impossible to believe that they're ALL bad. Bioware isn't lazy enough to write something so black and white. If *I* were a writer at Bioware, I would find it an exciting challenge to try to change people's perspectives of what appears to be a widely hated organization. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Exactly, which made me hopeful that he was selected from the ranks of chevaliers! Despite their bad reputation, I find it impossible to believe that they're ALL bad. Bioware isn't lazy enough to write something so black and white. If *I* were a writer at Bioware, I would find it an exciting challenge to try to change people's perspectives of what appears to be a widely hated organization. 

Don't make me hate Blackwall.

They ARE all bad. They have to murder an innocent City Elf to even join the order. They are all at least murderers. Not even the Darkspawn can claim that 100%. And Grey Wardens provide plenty of grey(no pun intended) already.