384 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

I wonder if DAI's Chevaliers will use blankets to kill people?

[xyzmkrysvr]

This thing:

Hmm that doesn't seem the cover the full spectrum, but it's interesting. So you think Iron Bull and Cole are on the evil side? Those are the only two I can think of, but I'm not even sure if they fit into any of those categories... I want another companion like a Morrigan, or even MORE evil... Like Flemeth

I think the DA universe has done a pretty good job of telling the player that people who kill (in universe, of course) aren't inherently evil, or even bad people. People kill for many reasons. Chevaliers kill because they are ordered to, they are no different from Leliana or Zevran.
 
I'd advise you to read the books and develop your own opinion of the Chevaliers, they're a good read.

I read Asunder and am halfway through The Masked Empire

[Wulfram]

If we had a Chevalier they'd just be bitter that they don't get to ride a horse

[xyzmkrysvr]

If we had a Chevalier they'd just be bitter that they don't get to ride a horse

Hahaha that pretty much wins the prize for best post in this entire thread! Congratulations

[Han Shot First]

I don't think Orlais is keeping the Qunari from invading Thedas (it wasn't my intention to suggest that), just that without Orlais, it's highly questionable whether Thedas could have ever evicted the Qunari. If Orlais falls, it looks like an occupation is inevitable, because Tevinter + Antiva, Rivain and the Free Marches don't have the might to stand up to them, Ferelden still hasn't recovered from the Blight, and it's hard to see the Anderfells + Nevera being enough on their own.  

 

Agreed,

 

Orlais and Tevinter seem to be the bulkwarks that have kept the Qunari confined to Par Vollen. I suppose if there is a future Qunari invasion, you could also probably add Nevarra to that list, since it has risen in power and now rivals Orlais.

 

But Orlais going into decline or disintegrating into warring factions is bad news for Thedas, unless you are an adherent to the Qun. 

[Xilizhra]

Aveline is exactly my point. It is view points and perception entirely.  And yes, being a product of their culture is an excuse.  You cannot create an artificial standard of morality which doesn't exist in Thedas to judge them by.  Yes, Chevaliers raped Loghain's mother. Are you telling me that no Ferelden soldiers have ever raped anyone?  The only thing we have that is a benchmark to hold against chevaliers is that as part of their initiation they kill a city elf which they and most of the human population of thedas have been raised to think are beneath them.  It is no different then how dwarves treat the casteless, but because our perceptions and how it is presented, we view the two situations entirely differently.  If Loghain's mother had been a casteless that was raped by dwarven royalty, most on here would probably hate all high class dwarves, but the story hasn't been framed as such.

Speak for yourself. Do you honestly think I, or those others who have issues with the chevaliers, detest Orzammar's nobility less than I do Orlais' nobility?

[Han Shot First]

Speak for yourself. Do you honestly think I, or those others who have issues with the chevaliers, detest Orzammar's nobility less than I do Orlais' nobility?

 

A squad full of rebels looking to overturn the apple cart would be boring though. In any DA game the companions need to be a mix of people who both support the status quo and others who want change. Also, not every companion should be a saint. Some should also have blood on their hands and dark pasts.

[Xilizhra]

A squad full of rebels looking to overturn the apple cart would be boring though. In any DA game the companions need to be a mix of people who both support the status quo and others who want change. Also, not every companion should be a saint. Some should also have blood on their hands and dark pasts.

There's unsaintly (i.e. everyone in DAI, except possibly Varric and Solas), and then there's downright evil (Zevran, Shale and arguably Sten in past games, seemingly Vivienne and Iron Bull now). Dark pasts are fine, but there's a difference between that and outright malevolent.

[xyzmkrysvr]

In any DA game the companions need to be a mix of people who both support the status quo and others who want change. Also, not every companion should be a saint. Some should also have blood on their hands and dark pasts.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way! Don't get me wrong, during my first play through I always role play the choices that I could see myself making in real life, which means my PC is a paragon of virtue. But I always like to do a badass, renegade play through, too, and it sucks when all your companions are saints who judge you when you do something bad. For once I would like a companion that is more evil than the PC could ever possibly be, just for a change. Gotta mix things up and keep 'em interesting!

  

There's unsaintly (i.e. everyone in DAI, except possibly Varric and Solas), and then there's downright evil (Zevran, Shale and arguably Sten in past games, seemingly Vivienne and Iron Bull now). Dark pasts are fine, but there's a difference between that and outright malevolent.

Wait, you think almost all of the companions in DA:I are either "unsaintly or downright evil"??
Cassandra belongs to a religious order of warriors who serve the Divine (We should call her Saint Cassandra)
Sera belongs to a enigmatic group of do-gooders who always look out for the little guy (doesn't seem to possess an evil bone)
Blackwall is a selfless, noble Grey warden (boring)
Dorian wants to reform Tevinter because he's unhappy with some of their nefarious practices (classic redeemer type)
Vivienne is a narcissistic, materialistic political opportunist (not exactly what I'd call "downright evil")
Iron Bull is a cheerful member of the Ben-Hassrath posing as a mercenary and spying for the Qunari (again not really evil, more like mischievous)
Cole is just naive and confused

They all sound pretty good to me... But I might have oversimplified some of them.

[Tenebrae]

There's unsaintly (i.e. everyone in DAI, except possibly Varric and Solas), and then there's downright evil (Zevran, Shale and arguably Sten in past games, seemingly Vivienne and Iron Bull now). Dark pasts are fine, but there's a difference between that and outright malevolent.

 

Would it truly be so horrible if we had a more "malevolent" companion?

 

As long Bioware isn't forcing you to take them along i hardly see why you are so firmly against the inclusion of less moralistic compnions.

 

I could personally do without someone moralising my every move it would be a refreshing change of pace.

[Xilizhra]

Wait, you think almost all of the companions in DA:I are either "unsaintly or downright evil"??
Cassandra belongs to a religious order of warriors who serve the Divine (We should call her Saint Cassandra)
Sera belongs to a enigmatic group of do-gooders who always look out for the little guy (doesn't seem to possess an evil bone)
Blackwall is a selfless, noble Grey warden (boring)
Dorian wants to reform Tevinter because he's unhappy with some of their nefarious practices (classic redeemer type)
Vivienne is a narcissistic, materialistic political opportunist (not exactly what I'd call "downright evil")
Iron Bull is a cheerful member of the Ben-Hassrath posing as a mercenary and spying for the Qunari (again not really evil, more like mischievous)
Cole is just naive and confused

They all sound pretty good to me... But I might have oversimplified some of them.

"Saintly" is a very high bar to reach. The only companion whom I think has ever reached it without question is Bethany; Wynne and Merrill could also squeak in with caveats.

 

Cassandra works for an order that might barely eke out neutrality, Vivienne is deeply selfish and seemingly rapacious, and Iron Bull serves an extremely destructive culture. The others might be good, it's true, but I don't know if any could claim to be saintly.

 

 

Would it truly be so horrible if we had a more "malevolent" companion?

 

As long Bioware isn't forcing you to take them along i hardly see why you are so firmly against the inclusion of less moralistic compnions.

 

I could personally do without someone moralising my every move it would be a refreshing change of pace.

Because at some point, I see no reason to keep them around, but I lose content by getting rid of them.

 

I actually thought DA2 did this best. Even the most morally unpleasant companion, Fenris, had a backstory that gave him a reasonable-ish explanation for all his personality defects, and he never really did much harm on his own.

[In Exile]

Agreed,

 

Orlais and Tevinter seem to be the bulkwarks that have kept the Qunari confined to Par Vollen. I suppose if there is a future Qunari invasion, you could also probably add Nevarra to that list, since it has risen in power and now rivals Orlais.

 

But Orlais going into decline or disintegrating into warring factions is bad news for Thedas, unless you are an adherent to the Qun. 

 

Did Neverra rise up at the expense of Orlais? That is, did they cannibalize part of the power the (ancient) Orlais had in the Steel/Storm ages (i.e., when the qunari invaded 200 years ago or so)?

[Tenebrae]

Because at some point, I see no reason to keep them around, but I lose content by getting rid of them.

 

I actually thought DA2 did this best. Even the most morally unpleasant companion, Fenris, had a backstory that gave him a reasonable-ish explanation for all his personality defects, and he never really did much harm on his own.

 

I dont find that a convincing point, as it stands someone on the other end of the spectrum (as in disliking moralistic companions) will suffer the the same situation as what you fear would happen to you should one of the companions be "evil", Honetly i miss the days of Edwin,Korgan and Viconia.

 

And yes i also liked Fenris, he was quite unhinged and amusing with his whole "magical fisting" routine, though i could have lived with less brooding...though it is an understandable character trait in his case.

[aTigerslunch]

Qunari isn't afraid of Tevinter, Orlais or Nevarra, if Tevinter would stop invading the island they lost, they wouldn't be in an active war. The Qunari haven't tried to attack and finish Tevinter. When they do decide to attack, Tevinter would fall  They do however respect The Warden and Hawke if both did earn respect. The reason they haven't invaded, is still in the air. But its not cause of one country or three.  The Qun is about order and structure, not chaos. They are waiting and watching.

 

Now, about the Chevaliers, the leadership would need changed cause they have the initiations set up. I'd do away with that, if they been abusing their power just like Templars, they will be put to sword. Policing up after themselves will become a big deal, if I kept their organization. Some Templars did help mages, they will be ok to live, same would be if Chevaliers tried the same tactics, but lacking information on that.

[Han Shot First]

Blackwall is a selfless, noble Grey warden (boring)
 

 

Blackwall seems to be more of a Lawful Neutral type actually. Or at least he is if the is the same Blackwall from World of Thedas:

 

Spoiler

 

[/[/s[

 

 

 

A good character would have been all for white knighting it to Ferelden, consequences be damned.

[BlueMagitek]

There's unsaintly (i.e. everyone in DAI, except possibly Varric and Solas), and then there's downright evil (Zevran, Shale and arguably Sten in past games, seemingly Vivienne and Iron Bull now). Dark pasts are fine, but there's a difference between that and outright malevolent.

 

Wiat, wait, wait.  Shale?  How on earth do you equate Shale with evil?

[Xilizhra]

Wiat, wait, wait.  Shale?  How on earth do you equate Shale with evil?

Extremely brutal, bloodthirsty and callous.

[Master Shiori]

It would have erupted into civil war in Ferelden, because Loghain and every Fereldan who didn't want to be subservient to Orlais wouldn't accept it; Cailan was barely acknowledged King by the Landsmeet as it is. I hardly see it as a wise move.

I'm talking about what happens after the Blight, not before. Celine was still trying to establish good relations with the new monarch(s) in Ferelden and, had Gaspard not forced her to focus on civil unrest, those efforts might have born fruit.  
 

We don't know what state Orlais will be in if the player decides to resolve the civil war. The Mage-Templar War is why the Circle isn't available to Celene for the civil war. However, the developers already said the Inquisitor can ally with the mages early on.

We don't even know if we'll be able to resolve the civil war. Sure, we might make a few choices related to the overall conflict, but there's no guarantee that these will alter the balance of power or the course of the war. They might only have an effect on smaller local battles. Same goes for mages. Alliance with smaller local groups? Sure. Changing the course of mage/templar war across all of Thedas? Unlikely.
 

It's a military organization that spans two nations, lead by someone who apparently is viewed with some religious significance for surviving a devastating blast at the Urn of Sacred Ashes. The balance of power may sway heavily in the favor of the Inquisition. If the player decides to avoid siding with one of the participants of the Orlesian civil war and focus on empowering the nation of Ferleden and a liberated kingdom of the Dales, I don't think Thedas would be doomed.

The balance of power may sway towards the Inquisition due to the current crisis, just as the balance of power sways towards the Wardens whenever a new Blight begins. Doesn't mean you'll keep that power once the Vail Tears are closed and the those responsible hunted down. Ferelden is still recovering from the Blight and even if it does recover, it cannot hope to match Orlais in economic or military power.
And the "kingdom" of the Dales is pure fantasy. There's no way either Gaspard or Celene would ever allow the Elves to establish their own state on Orlesian territory, especially territory that was taken as part of a successful conquest. Trying to do so would be a political suicide and clear sign that Orlais has lost its power and prestige. The best that the Elves can hope for is to support Celene in return for greater rights and, possibly, full orlesian citizenship.

[LobselVith8]

I'm talking about what happens after the Blight, not before. Celine was still trying to establish good relations with the new monarch(s) in Ferelden and, had Gaspard not forced her to focus on civil unrest, those efforts might have born fruit.  

 

Celene's attempts to regain Ferelden were through a marriage with Cailan, which is what I previously addressed, and what you responded to.

 

We don't even know if we'll be able to resolve the civil war. Sure, we might make a few choices related to the overall conflict, but there's no guarantee that these will alter the balance of power or the course of the war. They might only have an effect on smaller local battles. Same goes for mages. Alliance with smaller local groups? Sure. Changing the course of mage/templar war across all of Thedas? Unlikely.

 

Which is why I specifically addressed it would be a regional victory, since the developers made it clear the player can side with the mages or the templars, and address the conflict early on.

 

The balance of power may sway towards the Inquisition due to the current crisis, just as the balance of power sways towards the Wardens whenever a new Blight begins. Doesn't mean you'll keep that power once the Vail Tears are closed and the those responsible hunted down. Ferelden is still recovering from the Blight and even if it does recover, it cannot hope to match Orlais in economic or military power.

 

Assuming Orlais is in a position to do anything about it. And some of us have no intention of empowering Orlais to that point.

 

And the "kingdom" of the Dales is pure fantasy. There's no way either Gaspard or Celene would ever allow the Elves to establish their own state on Orlesian territory, especially territory that was taken as part of a successful conquest. Trying to do so would be a political suicide and clear sign that Orlais has lost its power and prestige. The best that the Elves can hope for is to support Celene in return for greater rights and, possibly, full orlesian citizenship.

 

I assure you, my Inquisitor would not ask their permission to do so. And if it needs to be over their dead bodies, I can oblige them.

[xyzmkrysvr]

Would it truly be so horrible if we had a more "malevolent" companion?
As long Bioware isn't forcing you to take them along i hardly see why you are so firmly against the inclusion of less moralistic compnions.
I could personally do without someone moralising my every move it would be a refreshing change of pace.

  

I completely agree.

"Saintly" is a very high bar to reach. The only companion whom I think has ever reached it without question is Bethany; Wynne and Merrill could also squeak in with caveats.
Cassandra works for an order that might barely eke out neutrality, Vivienne is deeply selfish and seemingly rapacious, and Iron Bull serves an extremely destructive culture. The others might be good, it's true, but I don't know if any could claim to be saintly.

  

Ok, so you listed three companions that could be considered "saintly". Can you name three that fall on the exact opposite end of the morality spectrum? What about one? Cause I can't... We really haven't had a single truly "malevolent" companion (again, I point to HK-47 from KOTOR as an example), which doesn't seem fair.

And Cassandra works for an order that "roots out corruption and protects the Chantry"... How is that anything other than morally righteous?

And being selfish doesn't make you evil by any means. Although I would LOVE if Vivienne was reminiscent of Maleficent (heck, they share a similar taste in clothes ) because I think that would make her fascinating. But if she just politically out-maneuvered her foes to get to the top, like Celene, it doesn't make her evil it just makes her smart.

And it sounds like the Iron Bull is somewhat conflicted when it comes to the Qun, so I'm not sure how he could be considered evil, either. His character actually seems like a really nice, friendly guy. Sure, he's a hired thug, but it sounds like he has a heart of gold.

Blackwall seems to be more of a Lawful Neutral type actually. Or at least he is if the is the same Blackwall from World of Thedas:
 

Spoiler

[/[/s[

 
A good character would have been all for white knighting it to Ferelden, consequences be damned.

True. That's a good point... But if he had been "all for white knighting it to Ferelden, consequences be damned" (a la Riordan), that would have made him more interesting. I still maintain he seems like the most boring of all companions (so far).

Extremely brutal, bloodthirsty and callous.

Shale was all talk, no walk.

[Master Shiori]

Assuming Orlais is in a position to do anything about it. And some of us have no intention of empowering Orlais to that point.

They don't need to be empowered. They're already have enough power that Ferelden isn't a threat to them on it's own and the Fereldans know that. However, Ferelden can become a threat if aligned with Nevarra, and that's what any smart Orlesian ruler should try to prevent.

I assure you, my Inquisitor would not ask their permission to do so. And if it needs to be over their dead bodies, I can oblige them.

I think you greatly overestimate the amount of power your Inquisitor has when compared to Gaspard and Celene. You're very likely to end up as Sophia Dreiden to Gaspard's or Celene's Arland. I probably don't need to remind you how that scenario plays out.

[Tenebrae]

Extremely brutal, bloodthirsty and callous.

 

As xyzmkrysvr said she hardly fits your assertions, as for her personality i'm not sure what you expected she is a war golem if anything she should have actually been "Extremely brutal, bloodthirsty and callous", unfortunately she is quite benign unless you're a pigeon.

 

At the moment any sort of major conflict between the andrasten nation of Thedas especially on account of something as idiotic as a power grab, would be utterly foolish, and if the Qunari wont size such an opportunity should it present itself i might suffer eye damage from extensive eye rolling.

 

As i see it the Qunari threat should come first, when they are dealt with the rest of Thedas is free to tear each other apart to their heart's content.

 

And to address the main point of this thread an unrepentant Chevalier companion would be quite the treat, i personally am quite fed up with redemption stories.

[Mistic]

Indeed. Which is why the most terrifying, and often most terrible, societies are the ones that smother dissent and try to prevent any information from coming or going. The isolated society that lets no one come or go is also the society that lets no one leave- and the more committed it is to ideological or cultural purity, the less kind it will be to its dissidents.

 

And there are always, always, dissidents. Those that claim otherwise are either fantasies, delusional, or both. There is no such thing as a closed society that universally wants anything: a certain religion, a certain culture, or even to be closed and left alone. Such claims are those of the ones in power, and the ones who suppress dissent.

 

I think that DA has done a good job in that regard. Every society has its dissidents.

 

The most clear are the Qunari and the Vasoth/Tal Vasoth (it means a lot when you have not just one, but two words for your dissidents), but there are more. Dalish elves who leave the clan to live in the cities, and City elves who leave the cities to live among the Dalish. War refugees. At least two civil wars. A schism in the Chantry. Dissonant verses in the Chant of Light. And several people badmouthing or turning against their own group, from that Orlesian girl talking about the chevaliers' abuses to Cullen ending up fighting Meredith.

 

Probably the mages are the most advanced group in that regard. You have an Imperial magocracy, the White Chantry Circles, apostates, mages from other cultures that don't consider themselves part of those previous groups, and inside the Circles you have the fraternities of enchanters, each with their own agenda. So much for monolithic stereotypes.

 

So yeah, I can definitely see a dissident chevalier in the game. Also means that I can judge the chevalier system according to their contemporaries' opinions and still point out that it's a horrible system.

[wcholcombe]

Speak for yourself. Do you honestly think I, or those others who have issues with the chevaliers, detest Orzammar's nobility less than I do Orlais' nobility?

Obviously not you Xil, but the community at large...yes. Based off the fact that many posters on here have said they would kill or not recruit a chevalier, yet I never saw a thread on BSN saying we should kill or imprison the dwarf in dao because of the class he came from. Its an oversimplification sure, but it is accurate.

[Xilizhra]

Obviously not you Xil, but the community at large...yes. Based off the fact that many posters on here have said they would kill or not recruit a chevalier, yet I never saw a thread on BSN saying we should kill or imprison the dwarf in dao because of the class he came from. Its an oversimplification sure, but it is accurate.

Who is "the dwarf?" Oghren? He's not a noble by birth, he was only elevated to that caste out of marriage, and he didn't even seem to enjoy it. In any case, chevaliers aren't just a class, but a military order with repugnant initiation rites and duties that are frequently just as bad.