384 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

No, it's still not an excuse. The society that produced Danarius is the same that produced Dorian. The society that produced the chevaliers raping Loghain's mother is the same that produced the Orlesian commoner girl in the market who was praising Ferelden for its freedom despite its flaws.

It's a point that sometimes is overlooked: the general norm is not the entirety. As long as there's a dissenter pointing out that there's something wrong with the system, there's room to criticize. Because isn't the dissenter also a product of the same culture? I believe in cultural relativism; however, I don't believe in silencing those voices from the past that, contemporary to the events, proved that even in those dark moments there was a different opinion. But I understand that taking them into account would diminish some relativistic viewpoints, so it's easy to stereotype whole countries and ages.

The example of Orzammar is in fact excellent: despite being the most traditionalistic country in the whole Thedas, there's a privileged guy that can become king that thinks that casteless are as good as any other to fight the darkspawn and, of course, fight for their king, honest payment included. Ok, Bhelen was a backstabbing bastard, but even a prince like him could realize that there was a flaw in the system... and then take advantage of it.

Sure there are desenters, but desenters are nor are they ever regarded as the moral example of their time. Dorian is like the Thedas version of a 9/11 truther in America, neither is representative of even a small segment of their population or the morality of the time.

[Tenebrae]

Obviously not you Xil, but the community at large...yes. Based off the fact that many posters on here have said they would kill or not recruit a chevalier, yet I never saw a thread on BSN saying we should kill or imprison the dwarf in dao because of the class he came from. Its an oversimplification sure, but it is accurate.

It might have something to do with the human factor, chevaliers are human dwarven nobility are not, that fact seems to make a lot of people gloss over their similarities.

 

You could see the same occurring when people discuss the qunari, they seem to be worse then the chevaliers (i think turning people into obedient husks would trump killing a alienage elves) yet people had said before how much they would like to have a qunari companion or better yet join the Qun.

 

In the end it's all subjective you can't use modern 21th moral code to judge a fictional society in a medieval state.

 

Well you could but it would make your point moot.

[SnakeCode]

It might have something to do with the human factor, chevaliers are human dwarven nobility are not, that fact seems to make a lot of people gloss over their similarities.

 

You could see the same occurring when people discuss the qunari, they seem to be worse then the chevaliers (i think turning people into obedient husks would trump killing a alienage elves) yet people had said before how much they would like to have a qunari companion or better yet join the Qun.

 

 

In the end it's all subjective you can't use modern 21th moral code to judge a fictional society in a medieval state.

 

Well you could but it would make your point moot.

This I think, is true. I mentioned the same thing in the Cole thread.

 

Had Cole been just an average human, going around murdering people because he thought he would disappear otherwise, as opposed to a spirit/demon/fade entity. I doubt the reaction to him would be markedly different from what it currently is. People want to mother him, and feel sorry for him, I don't think this would have been the primary feeling towards him had he been human.

[xyzmkrysvr]

As xyzmkrysvr said she hardly fits your assertions, as for her personality i'm not sure what you expected she is a war golem if anything she should have actually been "Extremely brutal, bloodthirsty and callous", unfortunately she is quite benign unless you're a pigeon.

 

And to address the main point of this thread an unrepentant Chevalier companion would be quite the treat, i personally am quite fed up with redemption stories.

 

Yeah, the only companion that comes close to being evil and unrepentant about his actions was Loghain. In a conversation with Wynne, he called his decision to abandon Cailan a "hard choice", but that "[he'd] make the same again." But, at by the end of the game, he asks to sacrifice himself as a form of redemption for his mistakes...  

 

Remember how Leliana and Wynne would turn on you if you defiled the Sacred Ashes? That's an example of how two morally righteous companions would act based off a decision your PC makes. How come we've never had a companion who would turn on you because they're sick of you making saintly (and, in the evil companion's eyes), asinine decisions? 

 

And to all of the people claiming that the chevaliers are just drunken, murdering rapists, one of the codex entries (http://dragonage.wik...s_-_Page_1_of_3) indicates that the chevaliers were ready to accompany the Grey Wardens to Ferelden to fight the Blight. That sounds pretty selfless and noble to me. If they were willing to sacrifice their lives to help save Ferelden, of all places, how bad can they really be?? 

[Xilizhra]

This I think, is true. I mentioned the same thing in the Cole thread.

 

Had Cole been just an average human, going around murdering people because he thought he would disappear otherwise, as opposed to a spirit/demon/fade entity. I doubt the reaction to him would be markedly different from what it currently is. People want to mother him, and feel sorry for him, I don't think this would have been the primary feeling towards him had he been human.

Er, an exceedingly confused spirit discovering morality is completely different from whatever Cole would be as a human, which would probably be something like Kelder--largely because mental illness of that nature can't really be persuaded away, whereas it could with Cole because of Cole's nature. In short, Cole is fixable.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

In the end it's all subjective you can't use modern 21th moral code to judge a fictional society in a medieval state.

Pro bono publico.

 

Yes, just look at our DA companions- mureders (Stan, Oghren, Zevran and Leliana), thieves (Sera, Isabella), bloodmages (Dorian, Morrigan). People love them but people despice possible Chevalier. This is illogocal for me.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, the only companion that comes close to being evil and unrepentant about his actions was Loghain. In a conversation with Wynne, he called his decision to abandon Cailan a "hard choice", but that "[he'd] make the same again." But, at by the end of the game, he asks to sacrifice himself as a form of redemption for his mistakes... 

He never really tries to repent for the slavery thing, which was his worst crime to begin with.

 

 

 Remember how Leliana and Wynne would turn on you if you defiled the Sacred Ashes? That's an example of how two morally righteous companions would act based off a decision your PC makes. How come we've never had a companion who would turn on you because they're sick of you making saintly (and, in the evil companion's eyes), asinine decisions?

Actually, Sten does that if you take him to Haven, or at least something similar. But the reason that doesn't happen for "saintly" actions more often is that such actions would have to be blatantly unsuccessful to be opposed by anyone who wasn't stupid evil... and actions that are that unsuccessful are extremely unlikely to be options at all.

 

 

And to all of the people claiming that the chevaliers are just drunken, murdering rapists, one of the codex entries (http://dragonage.wik...s_-_Page_1_of_3) indicates that the chevaliers were ready to accompany the Grey Wardens to Ferelden to fight the Blight. That sounds pretty selfless and noble to me. If they were willing to sacrifice their lives to help save Ferelden, of all places, how bad can they really be?? 

Someone willing to save humans and murder elves. Those are hardly mutually contradictory.

 

 

Pro bono publico.

 

Yes, just look at our DA companions- mureders (Stan, Oghren, Zevran and Leliana), thieves (Sera, Isabella), bloodmages (Dorian, Morrigan). People love them but people despice possible Chevalier. This is illogocal for me.

Leliana turned her back on mercenary killing, Sten and Oghren both aim to make up for past mistakes (with Sten being perfectly willing to die for them), and I don't like Zevran either. Thievery is far less horrible than what the chevaliers do, and in addition to blood magic not being inherently evil to begin with, neither Dorian nor Morrigan seem to be blood mages.

[xyzmkrysvr]

Pro bono publico.

 

Yes, just look at our DA companions- mureders (Stan, Oghren, Zevran and Leliana), thieves (Sera, Isabella), bloodmages (Dorian, Morrigan). People love them but people despice possible Chevalier. This is illogocal for me.

 

I've been wondering about that a lot lately, and it might have something to do with the fact that chevaliers have been accused of rape... Honestly, I could excuse a chevalier companion who killed a city elf in an initiation rite, but a rapist? Nope. I would castrate him with a rusty spoon and then impale him on a high dragon horn. 

[Tenebrae]

This I think, is true. I mentioned the same thing in the Cole thread.

 

Had Cole been just an average human, going around murdering people because he thought he would disappear otherwise, as opposed to a spirit/demon/fade entity. I doubt the reaction to him would be markedly different from what it currently is. People want to mother him, and feel sorry for him, I don't think this would have been the primary feeling towards him had he been human.

 

Indeed humans have a tendency to judge their species overly harshly in fiction, while providing wiggle room for non humans.

 

I suppose it is a lesser sin compared to people claiming they wouldn’t stand for such behavior were they to live in medieval times or said fictional universe, even if we ignore the ridiculous notion that you would somehow be in possession of your liberal 21th mentality and moral code while growing up in a medieval based society, you would most likely be very brutally put down for you insolence against the reigning regime..

 

So congrutalions you just died.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed humans have a tendency to judge their species overly harshly in fiction, while providing wiggle room for non humans.

 

I suppose it is a lesser sin compared to people claiming they wouldn’t stand for such behavior were they to live in medieval times or said fictional universe, even if we ignore the ridiculous notion that you would somehow be in possession of your liberal 21th mentality and moral code while growing up in a medieval based society, you would most likely be very brutally put down for you insolence against the reigning regime..

 

So congrutalions you just died.

Well, given that there are Orlesians who clearly oppose the chevaliers, I hardly see it as ridiculous.

[BlueMagitek]

Extremely brutal, bloodthirsty and callous.

 

That doesn't make her evil.  Despite all of her remarks to the Warden and his companions, she never strikes out against them (with the exception of siding with Branka, and if you're going to call her evil for that, Wynne, Leliana, Oghren, Morrigan & Alistair are also evil - not even going to list Zevran & Sten because they already are).  Sure, she has a problem with birds, because she spent 20+ years being used as a toilet for them.  I doubt anyone would have an atttitude any better.

 

At worst, she's chaotic neutral.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

 Thievery is far less horrible than what the chevaliers do

 

 

in addition to blood magic not being inherently evil to begin with, neither Dorian nor Morrigan seem to be blood mages.

Do you see what I am talking about? You give reasons for murderes and thieves. But you don't give The Chevaliers a chance.

 

Isabela was slave trader and she sold the whole city for her ass. People love her. Morrigan can kill her own mother and use Warden for her purpose. People love her. All magisters know bloodmagic and have slaves. People love them.

 

Chevaliers slay 3 elves at initiation. People think they are villians. Double standarts. I really don't understand why all of them considered as bad guys.

[Gervaise]

I think the whole point of Loghain's paranoia was that whilst the Chevaliers wanting to fight the darkspawn might seem like a noble gesture, he was afraid that once you let them in, you'd never get them out again.    The other thing would be that strategically it would make more sense to fight the darkspawn on your neighbour's soil and restrict the damage to there, so they never got to your homeland.     Since the next country in line after Ferelden would be Orlais, the actions of the Chevaliers wasn't entirely selfless.    If a troop of Tevinter Magisters had turned up and offered to assist in the fight, that could be considered selfless.   As it was, all they did was opportunistically use the situation to negotiate a slave trading deal with Loghain that was to their benefit as much as his.

 

To be fair to the Chevaliers they are the product of a system that I for one, abhor, but I have yet to come across an appreciably better one anywhere else in Thedas, particularly since it has been pointed out to me that it is an offence to harm a human whilst defending an elf in Ferelden.    The Chevaliers are meant to be elite fighters.   If a group of them turned up offering to help the Inquisition, I think I'd be a fool to turn them down out of hand.   I'd just ensure that I laid down a few ground rules about the sort of behaviour I'd expect whilst they were working under my banner.

[ladyofpayne]

I've been wondering about that a lot lately, and it might have something to do with the fact that chevaliers have been accused of rape... Honestly, I could excuse a chevalier companion who killed a city elf in an initiation rite, but a rapist? Nope. I would castrate him with a rusty spoon and then impale him on a high dragon horn. 

Whay do you think all of them are rapist? Some of them, yes. But some men do it too, conclusion is that all men are rapists?

[Xilizhra]

Do you see what I am talking about? You give reasons for murderes and thieves. But you don't give The Chevaliers a chance.

Well, the only people they'd correspond to as equivalents are murderers...

 

 

Isabela was slave trader and she sold the whole city for her ass. People love her. Morrigan can kill her own mother and use Warden for her purpose. People love her. All magisters know bloodmagic and have slaves. People love them.

 

Chevaliers slay 3 elves at initiation. People think they are villians. Double standarts. I really don't understand why all of them considered as bad guys.

Isabela later tries to fix both of those, Morrigan's mother is both evil and immortal, and no one loves any magisters except Dorian, who doesn't seem to do either. The biggest issue would be with an unrepentant chevalier.

[Tenebrae]

Well, given that there are Orlesians who clearly oppose the chevaliers, I hardly see it as ridiculous.

 

 

Alienage elves a hardly viewd as Orlesians, at best they are seen as cheap labor at worse..well you read about the chevalier initiation.

 

Most Orlesians are not opposed to the chevaliers, yes those who were harmed by them wont like them but the rest wont care, and they care even less about the plight of the elves.

 

That is the staple of medieval societies, as long as the "knights" or nobility aren’t overly abuse towards them the average Orlesian would keep their head down.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

Morrigan's mother is both evil and immortal

Really? Flemeth saved Warden and helped them. She helped Hawke. For reasons but she didn't do bad things.

 

 

 

Isabela later tries to fix both of those

If Hawke has influence for her. Beside that she just left them all to die.

[Xilizhra]

Really? Flemeth saved Warden and helped them. She helped Hawke. For reasons but she didn't do bad things.

Well, there's the whole "stealing peoples' bodies" thing.

 

 

If Hawke has influence for her. Beside that she just left them all to die.

How many of those who love Isabela will not have any influence with her?

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

How many of those who love Isabela will not have any influence with her?

Me. I didn't like that b*ch. I have to influence to reduce her selfish actions.

 

 

Well, there's the whole "stealing peoples' bodies" thing.

Morrigan words. Morrigas is lying b*ch.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Me. I didn't like that b*ch. I have to influence to reduce her selfish actions.

Morrigan words. Morrigas is lying b*ch.

It is confirmed that flemeth had this ritual and in fact morrigan never lied you to that point well at least we don't know if she did or not.

[Tenebrae]

Well, there's the whole "stealing peoples' bodies" thing.

 

Which was never proven, and even if it was Morrigan is hardly a model of "morality", and worse part of it is that her malevolent nature boils down to "mahaha I'm evil".

 

All you have to do is remember her suggestion to the warden at certain intervals

 

At least Flemeth malevolence seems to serve a goal, Morrigan seems to be in it mostly for the kicks.

 

 

How many of those who love Isabela will not have any influence with her?

 

That is also up to the player, if you don’t tell her "Hey wasn’t the whole point of your little feud the fact that his guy was selling people?" she will let him go in return for a ship, so yeah a moral character Isabella is not.

[ladyofpayne]

It is confirmed that flemeth had this ritual and in fact morrigan never lied you to that point well at least we don't know if she did or not.

It theme of Morrigan please.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It theme of Morrigan please.

As i said she never lied to you or at least you don't know she did so well you can call her bit*** or immoral but hardly liar.She didn't lie about ritual so well... 

[LobselVith8]

They don't need to be empowered. They're already have enough power that Ferelden isn't a threat to them on it's own and the Fereldans know that. However, Ferelden can become a threat if aligned with Nevarra, and that's what any smart Orlesian ruler should try to prevent.

 

Orlais is in the middle of a civil war that may become quite devastating, and might leave it too impotent to threaten Ferelden or a sovereign Dales.

 

I think you greatly overestimate the amount of power your Inquisitor has when compared to Gaspard and Celene. You're very likely to end up as Sophia Dreiden to Gaspard's or Celene's Arland. I probably don't need to remind you how that scenario plays out.

 

You make it sound like opposing powerful people isn't already a precedent in Dragon Age. The Warden can oppose Loghain despite his status as a hero among the people for ousting the Orlesian occupation from Ferelden, the Warden-Commander can deal with nobles who threaten to undermine the Warden's political power in Amaranthine, and the Champion can oppose Meredith at the very seat of templar power over eastern Thedas.

 

If you want to help Orlais, that's fine. I have no intention of doing so if I can help Ferelden maintain it's autonomy and participate in the emancipation of the Dales from Orlesian rule instead.

[BlueMagitek]

I'm still waiting for the explanation on Shale being evil. :/