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[Tenebrae]

Then my friend you will be disappointed, She isn’t "evil" she’s not even close.

[xyzmkrysvr]

He never really tries to repent for the slavery thing, which was his worst crime to begin with.

 

 

Actually, Sten does that if you take him to Haven, or at least something similar. But the reason that doesn't happen for "saintly" actions more often is that such actions would have to be blatantly unsuccessful to be opposed by anyone who wasn't stupid evil... and actions that are that unsuccessful are extremely unlikely to be options at all.

 

I completely forgot that about Loghain and I never took Sten to Haven, so I wasn't aware that was even a possible outcome... interesting! 

 

Do you see what I am talking about? You give reasons for murderes and thieves. But you don't give The Chevaliers a chance.  Isabela was slave trader and she sold the whole city for her ass. People love her. Morrigan can kill her own mother and use Warden for her purpose. People love her. All magisters know bloodmagic and have slaves. People love them.

Chevaliers slay 3 elves at initiation. People think they are villians. Double standarts. I really don't understand why all of them considered as bad guys.

 

Don't get me wrong: I think the whole killing city elves thing is horrible. I'm just surprised that so many people are so quick to judge the chevaliers without even entertaining the idea of having one along as a companion...  

 

I think the whole point of Loghain's paranoia was that whilst the Chevaliers wanting to fight the darkspawn might seem like a noble gesture, he was afraid that once you let them in, you'd never get them out again.    The other thing would be that strategically it would make more sense to fight the darkspawn on your neighbour's soil and restrict the damage to there, so they never got to your homeland.     Since the next country in line after Ferelden would be Orlais, the actions of the Chevaliers wasn't entirely selfless.    If a troop of Tevinter Magisters had turned up and offered to assist in the fight, that could be considered selfless.   As it was, all they did was opportunistically use the situation to negotiate a slave trading deal with Loghain that was to their benefit as much as his.

 

To be fair to the Chevaliers they are the product of a system that I for one, abhor, but I have yet to come across an appreciably better one anywhere else in Thedas, particularly since it has been pointed out to me that it is an offence to harm a human whilst defending an elf in Ferelden.    The Chevaliers are meant to be elite fighters.   If a group of them turned up offering to help the Inquisition, I think I'd be a fool to turn them down out of hand.   I'd just ensure that I laid down a few ground rules about the sort of behaviour I'd expect whilst they were working under my banner.

 

You make some really good points about the chevaliers... I suppose even their willingness to help defeat the Blight could be construed as self-serving... But I'm glad that you'd be willing to accept the chevaliers' help in defeating the demons pouring out of the Breach. And I like the idea of setting a few ground rules to a potential chevalier companion: "If kill Sera and or rape Vivienne, that's it - murder knife time!"

(probably shouldn't joke about rape, but...) 

 

Whay do you think all of them are rapist? Some of them, yes. But some men do it too, conclusion is that all men are rapists?

 

I certainly don't think all of them are rapists... but rape isn't really a prevalent theme in Dragon Age - we haven't come across many other characters who have been accused of rape. So the fact that some chevaliers have done it and others have been accused of trying to do it sours the entire bunch of them in a lot of people's minds. All I was saying was that I could see myself allowing a chevalier companion join the Inquisition despite the fact that they killed a city elf, but I could NOT excuse rape under any circumstances. Most of our companions have murdered before - that's somewhat acceptable. Rape is inexcusable. 

 

 

The biggest issue would be with an unrepentant chevalier.

 

What about a chevalier companion that was arrogant and unrepentant when you first encounter them, but, over the course of the game, you have the ability to change their mind (kind of like how you could "harden" Leliana and Alistair)? Would that be more palatable? 

[Gervaise]

I should point out that I can seem so even handed because I doubt the Chevaliers would want to work for me anyway.   You see first time through I'll be playing a female elf mage and somehow I can't see Chevaliers willing to accept my orders, can you?

[Tenebrae]

Don't get me wrong: I think the whole killing city elves thing is horrible. I'm just surprised that so many people are so quick to judge the chevaliers without even entertaining the idea of having one along as a companion... 

 

People are having a hard time not projecting their own morality into their pc, not matter how Inappropriate unrealistic it is within the confines of established lore.

 

What about a chevalier companion that was arrogant and unrepentant when you first encounter them, but, over the course of the game, you have the ability to change their mind (kind of like how you could "harden" Leliana and Alistair)? Would that be more palatable? 

 

Ignoring the fact that a courrption path for "good" npc's are scares in dragon age games, As long as its optional and i can choose to keep the chevalier as is i hardly see an issue with it, though if we are using Leliana and Alistair as examples then any "redemption" will be minimal at best.

[xyzmkrysvr]

I should point out that I can seem so even handed because I doubt the Chevaliers would want to work for me anyway.   You see first time through I'll be playing a female elf mage and somehow I can't see Chevaliers willing to accept my orders, can you?

 

My first play through will be a female qunari mage. I look forward to bending the chevaliers to my will... or bending the uncooperative ones over my knee for a spanking But if the chevaliers have no problem taking orders from Celene, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to listen to the Inquisitor. Granted, they used to be pretty misogynistic, but I think the original Aveline made them more receptive to strong-willed, powerful women. 

 

Ignoring the fact that a courrption path for "good" npc's are scares in dragon age games, As long as its optional and i can choose to keep the chevalier as is i hardly see an issue with it, though if we are using Leliana and Alistair as examples then any "redemption" will be minimal at best.

 

Well yeah, I would definitely want any sort of "softening" of a potential chevalier companion to be entirely optional. 

 

If I wanted a festering swine (nug) in armor for a companion I'd go to Orzammar and buy one.

 

I... don't think that is half as clever as you think it is. :\ Nugs are cute, little, harmless critters that more closely resemble a bunny than a pig. How are they analogous to chevaliers in any way?

[Tenebrae]

Didn’t we already have a nug companion, how could you forget Schmooples?.....I am disappointed mister knight.

[Han Shot First]

People are having a hard time not projecting their own morality into their pc, not matter how Inappropriate unrealistic it is within the confines of established lore.

 

 

Although the practice of murdering City Elves as a rite of passage is a horrible thing, I think its an interesting part of the lore. It sounds like the devs were inspired by the Krypteia.

 

Certain young Spartan men who had completed their training at the agoge with such success that they were marked out as potential future leaders would be given the opportunity to test their skills and prove themselves worthy of the Spartan polity through participation in the Krypteia.

 

Every autumn, according to Plutarch (Life of Lycurgus, 28, 3–7), the Spartan ephors would pro forma declare war on the helot population so that any Spartan citizen could kill a helot without fear of punishment. At night, the chosen kryptes (members of the Krypteia) were sent out into the Laconian countryside armed with knives with the instructions to kill any helot they encountered and to take any food they needed.

 

According to Cartledge, Krypteia members stalked the helot villages and surrounding countryside, spying on the servile population. Their mission was to prevent and/or suppress unrest and rebellion. Troublesome helots could be summarily executed. Such brutal repression of the helots permitted the Spartan élite to successfully control the servile agrarian population and devote themselves to military practice. It may also have contributed to the Spartans' reputation for stealth since a kryptes who got caught was punished by whipping.

 

Only Spartans who had served in the Krypteia as young men could expect to achieve the highest ranks in Spartan society and army. It was felt that only those Spartans who showed the willingness and ability to kill for the state at a young age were worthy to join the leadership in later years.

 

 

Wikipedia - Krypteia

 

 

In any case, a character having done some morally questionable things in their past should not rule them out as potential companions. There probably won't be a Chevalier companion in DA:I, unless Blackwall was one before he was a Warden, but in any case I'd love to see a Chevalier companion at some point. 

[Tenebrae]

 

Although the practice of murdering City Elves as a rite of passage is a horrible thing, I think its an interesting part of the lore. It sounds like the devs were inspired by the Krypteia.

 

 

 

 

 

Wikipedia - Krypteia

 

 

In any case, a character having done some morally questionable things in their past should not rule them out as potential companions. There probably won't be a Chevalier companion in DA:I, unless Blackwall was one before he was a Warden, but in any case I'd love to see a Chevalier companion at some point. 

Ah yes the Spartan’s, lets not forget the habit of throwing newbornr with defects off a cliff, I think they've got the chevaliers beat.

 

Also nice catch it certainly seems they were inspired by the Spartan right of passage.

 

And Blackwall might be Chevalier and then again he might not be, Wardens go where they are posted/needed so there is no assurance that he is even Orlesian.

[The Baconer]

People are having a hard time not projecting their own morality into their pc, not matter how Inappropriate unrealistic it is within the confines of established lore.

 

I don't think it's that unrealistic, even given the setting, that a lot of pc's would find their initiation practices repellant. That is of course, assuming they actually have knowledge of said initiation practices.

[Tenebrae]

I didn't. And I'd take Schmooples trapped in a pokéball phylactery over a Chevalier.

Fair enough, like I said as long as companion aren’t shoved down our collective throats and we have diversity in attitude amongst companion ("good", "evil" or just plain neutral) then there shouldn’t be an issue.

[SnakeCode]

 

Although the practice of murdering City Elves as a rite of passage is a horrible thing, I think its an interesting part of the lore. It sounds like the devs were inspired by the Krypteia.

 

 

 

 

 

Wikipedia - Krypteia

 

 

In any case, a character having done some morally questionable things in their past should not rule them out as potential companions. There probably won't be a Chevalier companion in DA:I, unless Blackwall was one before he was a Warden, but in any case I'd love to see a Chevalier companion at some point. 

I think the point of the initiation is to prove that they are willing to follow orders. Even if you are asked to do something that you find morally repugnant, you do it. They are told to kill, and they do it, no questions asked.

[Tenebrae]

I don't think it's that unrealistic, even given the setting, that a lot of pc's would find their initiation practices repellant. That is of course, assuming they actually have knowledge of said initiation practices.

Like i said whether your pc finds the practice repellant or just plain doesn’t care depends on his background/class/race.

 

Of course my dailsh elf pc would have never recruited a chevalier he would have most likely killed him, but my human power hungry mage might have decided that said chevalier could prove useful, and why should he care about a few dead elves? he isnt one.

 

 

Its all about your character’s attitude and backstory and most importantly lore, having a 21th attitude for your character is ridiculous as said character has no way to form said moral structure.

[Gervaise]

I think you didn't quite get the significant of what I said I'd be.    I'll be an elf, someone who they are used to insulting and giving orders to.   On top of that I'll be a female elf, someone who they are even less likely to view as anything other than an object to be abused (regardless of any misogynist tendencies).   Finally I'll be a mage, who traditionally is meant to take orders, not give them.   Put those three together and I can see them being really unhappy about me being in charge.

 

Actually I am also looking forward to any Orlesian banquet or ball that I am invited to.    I remember in MoA that Fenris was a bit annoyed they kept calling him my man servant but you could see why that would allow Hawke to get away with taking his elf friends along with them, because the nobles just assumed they were servants.   Now this time round there ought to be no mistake, particularly as I going to ensure my ears are most pointedly on show.   Mind you, they may well work in some humour.  For example, some snooty noble orders you to get them wine or some such and then realises their mistake, or you very politely point it out to them.   I haven't decided yet whether I will dress down just to annoy them or really go to town putting on a show because that is something they would never expect to see.  (That is assuming we have any control over how we dress for the ball).

[xyzmkrysvr]

 

Although the practice of murdering City Elves as a rite of passage is a horrible thing, I think its an interesting part of the lore. It sounds like the devs were inspired by the Krypteia.

 

Wikipedia - Krypteia

 

In any case, a character having done some morally questionable things in their past should not rule them out as potential companions. There probably won't be a Chevalier companion in DA:I, unless Blackwall was one before he was a Warden, but in any case I'd love to see a Chevalier companion at some point. 

 

Oooh good find! Honestly, the fact that they might have been influenced by Spartans makes me like chevaliers all the more... mainly because Spartans supposedly encouraged homosexual relations among their ranks because they believed it increased troop morale and made them more effective fighters (I'm pretty sure I read that on the Internet somewhere ) And the thought of Orlesian chevaliers being gay knights in shining armor makes me smile

 

But you're right: we almost certainly won't have a chevalier companion in DA:I. I created this thread because I was 1) surprised that the writers didn't think it would make sense to include one, seeing as the game takes place in Orlais and 2) because I hope we get a chevalier companion in DA:I 2 (fingers crossed for Michel as a companion/love interest...!) 

 

I think the point of the initiation is to prove that they are willing to follow orders. Even if you are asked to do something that you find morally repugnant, you do it. They are told to kill, and they do it, no questions asked.

 

Good point. I thought it was to see how well they could handle killing another individual (kind of like how the Templars forces mages to participate in the Harrowing, actually...) but your theory makes sense, too. 

 

I think you didn't quite get the significant of what I said I'd be.    I'll be an elf, someone who they are used to insulting and giving orders to.   On top of that I'll be a female elf, someone who they are even less likely to view as anything other than an object to be abused (regardless of any misogynist tendencies).   Finally I'll be a mage, who traditionally is meant to take orders, not give them.   Put those three together and I can see them being really unhappy about me being in charge.

 

Actually I am also looking forward to any Orlesian banquet or ball that I am invited to.    I remember in MoA that Fenris was a bit annoyed they kept calling him my man servant but you could see why that would allow Hawke to get away with taking his elf friends along with them, because the nobles just assumed they were servants.   Now this time round there ought to be no mistake, particularly as I going to ensure my ears are most pointedly on show.   Mind you, they may well work in some humour.  For example, some snooty noble orders you to get them wine or some such and then realises their mistake, or you very politely point it out to them.   I haven't decided yet whether I will dress down just to annoy them or really go to town putting on a show because that is something they would never expect to see.  (That is assuming we have any control over how we dress for the ball).

 

Haha ahh I see what you mean... but if the chevaliers seem unwilling to take orders from a female elf/mage/what have you, then hopefully they give the PC the option to put them in their place. It would be really cool if a female PC could re-create Aveline's fight with Kaleva as a way of earning their respect!  

 

And I'm really excited for the Orlesian ball... I hope we get to choose between several outfits to wear (I was really annoyed with female Hawke's clothes that she had to wear in her estate and FemShep's black leather dress that she ALWAYS pulled out for special occasions). And in the case like the one that you described, we should have the option to throw a glass of wine in that arrogant Orlesian woman's face... that would be comedy gold. 

[The Baconer]

Its all about your character’s attitude and backstory and most importantly lore, having a 21th attitude for your character is ridiculous as said character has no way to form said moral structure.

 

What aspects of a 21st century attitude? You mean aside from the ones that have already been cherry-picked from our reality and placed within Thedas?

[Han Shot First]

Did Neverra rise up at the expense of Orlais? That is, did they cannibalize part of the power the (ancient) Orlais had in the Steel/Storm ages (i.e., when the qunari invaded 200 years ago or so)?

 

Neverra gained independence from Orlais before the Qunari invasion, but a subsequent war over Perendale was after. Orlais lost some territory in that war but I'm not sure if it was enough to put a dent in their power. Nevarra's rise has mostly come at the cost of indepdent Free-Marcher city-states that have been gobbled up over the centuries. Nevarra seems intent on doing with the Free Marches what Drakon did with Orlais, or Calenhad with Ferelden.

[Aimi]

Oooh good find! Honestly, the fact that they might have been influenced by Spartans makes me like chevaliers all the more... mainly because Spartans supposedly encouraged homosexual relations among their ranks because they believed it increased troop morale and made them more effective fighters (I'm pretty sure I read that on the Internet somewhere ) And the thought of Orlesian chevaliers being gay knights in shining armor makes me smile

I guess that's you.

If there's any sure-fire way to get me to dislike a fictional group, it's comparing them to the freaking Lakedaimonians. A horrifically exploitative society which was built on the enslaved backs of a conquered underclass so that a few thousand Equals could enjoy the fruits of their labor and spend more of their time in military training. A bunch of militarily overrated scrubs who relied on their allies and puppets to win - when they did win - and who won a lot less than 300-nurtured popular culture would like to admit. And a collection of morons who believed their own propaganda about military invincibility to the degree that, long after whatever military glory they had once possessed had faded away, they were still picking fights with the Great Powers of the classical world - Makedon, Roma, even the koinon ton Achaion - causing wars in which real people died, and they lost every single time until the Romans finally got tired of their garbage and erased Spartan independence once and for all.

One of my favorite stories about the Spartans and how full of their own crap they were comes from the fourth century BC. Philip II of Makedon, Alexander the Great's father, had just capped off two decades of military genius by winning the Battle of Chaironeia and forcing almost all of Greece into a general alliance. Sparte was one of the few states that remained outside Philip's rule. Supposedly, Philip sent the Spartans a warning, informing them that if he ever entered Lakonia, he would raze Sparte. The Spartan reply is supposed to have been just one word: "if". Which sounds cool and all. Lots of Spartan fangirls bring that little gem up in any discussion. It's an example of their famous "laconic" dry humor.

Then Philip died, and then his kid Alexander took the reins and went off on some harebrained adventure in Iran with most of the army. Only a small chunk of the military was left in Greece, under the command of Alexander's regent, Antipatros, a guy who would never get put on one of those "top ten military geniuses in history" lists. With Alex gone along with the good part of the army, the Spartans thought that it was a decent time to pick a fight with the Maks. So they did. And Antipatros' army beat the living crap out of them, crushing the Spartan army at Megalopolis in a battle where even the Spartan king, Agis III, died.

So yeah, the Lakedaimonians could talk the talk. They were significantly worse at walking the walk.

[xyzmkrysvr]

I guess that's you.

If there's any sure-fire way to get me to dislike a fictional group, it's comparing them to the freaking Lakedaimonians. 

 

*snip*

So yeah, the Lakedaimonians could talk the talk. They were significantly worse at walking the walk.

 

You're clearly the expert on this subject matter when compared to me, I'm not ashamed to admit it!  

So did the "Lakedaimonians"/Spartan troops encourage homosexuality or is that just an internet rumor?? 

[Tenebrae]

What aspects of a 21st century attitude? You mean aside from the ones that have already been cherry-picked from our reality and placed within Thedas?

 

I was referring to relaying on a moral code that has no place nor basis in theadas, you as a 21th human living on earth view the chevaliers as "evil" but most humans in Orlais do not unless said chevaliers have hurt them personally.

 

Trying to bring your own real life morality in to play is foolish, your character has no way of establishing such a moral structure as his society is utterly different from your own, and if you wish to argue that he is somehow special then the only future in store for said character in such a setting is a very painful death and the majority of the humans in Orlais wouldn’t care that he died for what they view as foolish and bizarre worldview.

 

Unless its turns out to be a good story...Orlesians love their stories

[Mistic]

You're clearly the expert on this subject matter when compared to me, I'm not ashamed to admit it!

So did the "Lakedaimonians"/Spartan troops encourage homosexuality or is that just an internet rumor?? 

 

It's not just an Internet rumour, but a common guess among historians. It wasn't just Sparta; acts of heroism in battle were often adscribed to homosexual relationships in Ancient Greece. But there isn't definite proof about that.

 

Where there is proof is in the Sacred Band of Thebes:

 

According to Plutarch, the 300 hand-picked men were chosen by Gorgidas purely for ability and merit, regardless of social class. It was composed of 150 arguably pederastic male couples, each pair consisting of an older erastês (ἐραστής, "lover") and a younger erômenos (ἐρώμενος, "beloved"). Athenaeus of Naucratis also records the Sacred Band as being composed of "lovers and their favorites, thus indicating the dignity of the god Eros in that they embrace a glorious death in preference to a dishonorable and reprehensible life"; while Polyaenus describes the Sacred Band as being composed of men "devoted to each other by mutual obligations of love".

 

They were crucial in many wars, especially the ones that served to end Sparta's hegemony. People remember very well that Sparta won the Peloponnesian War, but not that they lost their hegemony soon after. Thebes was the city that managed to do that, thanks to important figures such as Pelopidas and Epaminondas. In the battle of Tegyra, the Sacred Band and a small force of cavalry defeated the Spartans, the first recorded time a Spartan hoplite army was defeated by an enemy inferior in number. Then, in the battle of Leuctra, the Thebans inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Spartans, a loss the city never recovered from. After the oligarchy sold them to the Spartans (the Lakedaimonians actually occupied Thebes for some years), the people in Thebes established a democracy and, when they won the war, gave freedom to many helots in the Peloponnesus, thus crippling Sparta's economy forever.

 

Yet the Thebans never enjoyed the level of propaganda that Athens and Sparta had, despite managing to do what the former couldn't (defeating the so called "invincible" Sparta) and saving Greece from the later's tyranny. It's nothing new. Again, people remember the 300 Spartans that stayed in Thermopylae to die while the rest of the allied army escaped. Yet few remember that 400 Thebans and 700 Thespians stayed behind with them.

[Aimi]

You're clearly the expert on this subject matter when compared to me, I'm not ashamed to admit it!  
So did the "Lakedaimonians"/Spartan troops encourage homosexuality or is that just an internet rumor??

Well, I'm not that good at classical history. And homosexuality in classical Greece is a difficult subject.

For one thing, rich males all over Greece were wont to engage in homosexual relationships of varying stripes, not just the Spartans. You had platonic mentorships and close friendships, but there was also ephebophilic sex and sex between men of a similar age. These relationships were viewed with varying degrees of approval, acceptance, and disapproval depending on context. Sometimes they were grounds for criminal prosecution (or sometimes they served as justifications for prosecution when the real reason was something else, like a political squabble). Sometimes they were just another aspect of the participants' personality, not worthy of general comment.

There are several mentions in classical Greek history of military units that incorporated homosexual couples as an inducement to fight harder, and the most famous examples are the Theban Sacred Band and the Spartan Equals. I don't think that all of the Equals were gay, and I don't know if this was encouraged by the state or not (or whether it's possible to disentangle societal pressures and/or support for this sort of thing from state-institutional ones). But I'm not incredibly conversant in the literature, let alone the sources.

But yes, it's safe to say that male homosexuality was a Thing in the Spartan military.

EDIT: woo ninja'ed, nice job Mistic

[xyzmkrysvr]

@Eirene & @Mistic: You both are treasure troves of fascinating facts!  

 

Unfortunately, nothing we've heard about chevaliers suggests they encourage homosexual relations among their ranks, so I guess my wishful thinking was all in vain.  

 

I've nearly finished with The Masked Empire, though, and am liking Michel's character more and more... unlike the other chevaliers, he seems like more palatable choice for a potential companion for DA:I's sequel. What do you guys think?? 

[Mistic]

I've nearly finished with The Masked Empire, though, and am liking Michel's character more and more... unlike the other chevaliers, he seems like more palatable choice for a potential companion for DA:I's sequel. What do you guys think?? 

 

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that Michel may have been an idea for a companion that then was discarded. When you finish TME, you will see that it leaves him in a perfect position to be a companion. Alas, we have the complete list of companions now, so he will probably be a NPC.