384 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Human warrior protaganist background to be Chevalier maybe. Though no doubt there would be howls of protest.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well what about a former chevalier haunted by his past? Or maybe one that abandoned the chevaliers to become a Grey Warden (I'm keeping my fingers crossed that's Blackwall's backstory...)

If the Chevalier character was like either scenario you said, then I'd be a lot more lenient about them since they know what they did was wrong, and if helping me is a way they think they can redeem themselves, then I'll be glad I can help. 

[Maria Caliban]

Human warrior protaganist background to be Chevalier maybe. Though no doubt there would be howls of protest.

That would be nice. However, as none of the available voices have a French accent while English and N. American are available, I'm going to guess the Inquisitor's background won't have anything to do with Orlais.

Maybe they feel it's the most relatable place in Thedas for players for that very reason?

I don't live in a generic fantasy land. I live in Las Vegas. If they want to bring that to Thedas, I might relate to it.

[animedreamer]

This is true i had forgotten.. 

[Dean_the_Young]

And? So I should just be a-ok with what they did? 

Not at all- but you should recognize it's neither particularly unique or uncommon in their cultural context. Condemning people by cultural standards that they don't share is ethnocentricism. Which is fine... but has little bearing in a context where your culture doesn't even exist.

 

Hating them for their treatment is a bit of an anachronism when you consider the real world history of military law, let alone the complete lack of it in Thedas. It makes about as much sense as someone in Awakening claiming they're going to establish a bill of rights in Amarantherine.

 

Yes, because most of the common people seeing them as brutes as much as chivalrous is obviously a sign they are okay with it. 

 

Besides, rights have to start somewhere. I can be Thedas's starter of it. 

We don't know what most of the common people see Chevaliers as. We've only talked to a precious few, and of those they were all on the wrong side.

 

As for you starting rights in Thedas... past the right to kill people you disagree with and think are wrong, which most groups already practice, not sure what you think you'll do or why you think people would buy into it. People love rights that give them privileges, but the systems often break down when they realize it gives their rivals and enemies privileges as well. The biggest problem with democracy, after all, is that it gives all those other idiots a vote as well...

 

But, hey, it could be fun to watch you try and justify it. I recommend you work through the Chantry, to argue that rights are derived from the Maker. Thedosians believe in the Maker. They'd probably laugh at you if you claimed all people are created equal, though.

 

 

And if I lived in medieval times, I'd be saying the same. Time period is no excuse for atrocities. 

 

If you lived in medieval times, you'd have no culture of western liberalism to build your current moral foundation of. If you had a morality fitting for the age, it's more likely you would have a propensity for excusing atrocities in direct correlation to the groups being targeted (ie, none that you identify with).

 

An enlightened western liberal you would not be.

[xyzmkrysvr]

If the Chevalier character was like either scenario you said, then I'd be a lot more lenient about them since they know what they did was wrong, and if helping me is a way they think they can redeem themselves, then I'll be glad I can help.

You're assuming that ALL chevaliers have done something wrong. I don't think that's really fair... The Dragon Age Wiki page for chevaliers says that their "privilege often leads to abuses among the common class", which is why they have an infamous reputation, but you shouldn't be so quick to judge.

We don't know what most of the common people see Chevaliers as. We've only talked to a precious few, and of those they were all on the wrong side.

Exactly. American troops in Iraq quickly developed a bad reputation due to a couple unfortunate, isolated incidents and now their reputation is permanently marred in the Middle East; but our men and women in uniform are willing to sacrifice their life to defend their country, and that's a respectable, noble cause--even if their methods are sometimes questionable.

In my opinion, the chevaliers have more of a reason to join up with the Inquisition than, say, the Qunari. After all, the Breach apparently kills the Divine and the Fade rips are opening up all over Orlais... A chevalier companion just makes sense.

And if Bioware can write a character like Sten, who murdered a family of farmers over a lost sword and was initially seen as a lunatic, I have faith they could make a chevalier likable with redeeming qualities.

Obviously it's moot, seeing as the game is a little over three months from release. I guess I'm just curious why Bioware decided to omit a member from such an important and relevant faction...

[Deebo305]

I'm glad we don't have a Chevalier companion. I'd have to either imprison or kill them on principle.

This.

The books and games have not painted a pretty picture for these guys. They seem more like thugs in shiny armor more than anything

I do like Michel de Chevin since I started reading "The Masked Empire" but only because he reminds me of The Hound from GoT so far anyway

[Maria Caliban]

If you lived in medieval times, you'd have no culture of western liberalism to build your current moral foundation of. If you had a morality fitting for the age, it's more likely you would have a propensity for excusing atrocities in direct correlation to the groups being targeted (ie, none that you identify with).

Moreover, this assumes that you're in any way educated. If you've never read a book, had any rights, or had a conversation about human atrocities, you'd likely place 'nobles murdering commoners' in the same category as 'my first two children dying to illness.'

Very sad, but simply one of the bad things that happens. You endure and maybe you'll go to heaven when you die.

[xyzmkrysvr]

This.
The books and games have not painted a pretty picture for these guys. They seem more like thugs in shiny armor more than anything
I do like Michel de Chevin since I started reading "The Masked Empire" but only because he reminds me of The Hound from GoT so far anyway

What's wrong with a "thug in shining armor" companion? I think it would be awesome to have a character like the Hound join the Inquisition. I still remember HK-47 from KOTOR as being one of the most likable, interesting companions and he was batshit crazy--a pure psychopath.

[KaiserShep]

I do like Michel de Chevin since I started reading "The Masked Empire" but only because he reminds me of The Hound from GoT so far anyway

 

It'd be pretty interesting to have a character like that as part of the team.

[Incantrix]

I dunno. I'm all for companions having their own agenda and ambition but a character like "the hound" I know I'd eventually have to put him down. Those kind of characters would back stab you in a heart beat. 

[Former_Fiend]

I'm not particularly surprised. We didn't get an Ash Warrior companion in Origins and those guys are kind of the iconic fighters of Ferelden. 

[Deebo305]

What's wrong with a "thug in shining armor" companion? I think it would be awesome to have a character like the Hound join the Inquisition. I still remember HK-47 from KOTOR as being one of the most likable, interesting companions and he was batshit crazy--a pure psychopath.

From what I've seen, most of these guys are as bad as the people they claim are criminals or scum and being a Chevalier is basically your" I'm above the law card", and Orlais does have laws and harsh punishments for said lawbreakers

But once a Chevalier can basically get away with just about the worst crimes shy of outright assassination of Emperor/Empress...opps scratch that Gaspard said screw that and is just slaughtering his way to Celene and apparently afew nobles as well, I'm sure those will be written off as "Hunting Accidents".

So yea, Most Chevaliers are just thugs as unruly as any bandit while they hide behind word like "Honor".

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

So yea, Most Chevaliers are just thugs as unruly as any bandit while they hide behind word like "Honor". 

Really? Gaspard and Michel aren't thugs.

[Deebo305]

Really? Gaspard and Michel aren't thugs.

I did say most not all

[Dean_the_Young]

You're assuming that ALL chevaliers have done something wrong. I don't think that's really fair... The Dragon Age Wiki page for chevaliers says that their "privilege often leads to abuses among the common class", which is why they have an infamous reputation, but you shouldn't be so quick to judge.

 

No, all the Chevaliers have committed murder. The initiation ritual is to go out and murder a serf or elf, ala the old Spartan ritual. You have to pass that to be a Chevalier- even if you do nothing else wrong, you're still a murderer.

 

Then again, Bioware games are basically murder simulators writ large, often with just a fig leaf of a moral justification for why it's alright. Bioware companions are often worse: even when they aren't complicit with the PC, quite often companions are murderers on their own right, again with flimsy justifications. Garrus got bored of work and went to Omega to kill bad people to make himself feel better. Samara has been a lethal-force vigilante for centuries. Let's not even begin with Wrex, or Thane, or Zevran, or Leliana.

 

If there's one thing Bioware writers have been quite clear on, being a murderer doesn't make you a bad person. Or at least an unsympathetic character without strong morals that don't have to be tied to a redemption arc.

[ladyofpayne]

I did say most not all

So, Gaspard and Michel only two chevaliers that have personality.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm not particularly surprised. We didn't get an Ash Warrior companion in Origins and those guys are kind of the iconic fighters of Ferelden. 

How so? I thought they were tribals on the outskirts of the civilization. Chevaliers are elite Orlesian soldiers, though, with an in-setting grounds to being among the best of the best on par with Wardens.

 

 

As for not having an Orlesian... well, I'm not disappointed per see. I do think it would be interesting and something to be gained from such a character base, whether it was a true and current Chevalier or a wash-out or disgraced one. Bioware doesn't have many outright honorable characters, as opposed to generally well-meaning and good ones, and there's fodder to be had. So yeah, missed opportunity.

 

But at the same time, DA has never been a case of 'let's represent the local region in the companion cast.' Unlike ME, which very much went for 'I am the proxy character for this human/quarian/turian/krogan/asari/drell/geth faction', DA has never really tried that. DAO had pretty much no characters who could claim to serve as a proxy or representative for Ferelden. Alistair, the secret prince and obvious candidate, was not a Ferelden nationalist and not really a Templar and barely a Warden. Wynn was the Circle of Magi, which really isn't Ferelden in nature or identity. Morrigan was a tribal myth, and not even a part of the barbarian society. The rest of the companion cast were a bunch of foreigners, some proxy and some not.

 

DA2 had the same issue. The only real Marchers of the cast were Varric and Sebastian- a merchant prince and an actual prince respectively. Neither were much of a proxy of a in-world faction. Every other companion (and Hawke themselves) were immigrants from other places.

 

So if DAI doesn't really embrace the local nation in the companion cast... well, that doesn't really surprise me. Some of the companions we are getting are pretty cool as is. We're getting a freaking magister, after all. I wouldn't rule out getting a Chevalier in some future game either.

[Dean_the_Young]

From what I've seen, most of these guys are as bad as the people they claim are criminals or scum and being a Chevalier is basically your" I'm above the law card", and Orlais does have laws and harsh punishments for said lawbreakers

But once a Chevalier can basically get away with just about the worst crimes shy of outright assassination of Emperor/Empress...opps scratch that Gaspard said screw that and is just slaughtering his way to Celene and apparently afew nobles as well, I'm sure those will be written off as "Hunting Accidents".

So yea, Most Chevaliers are just thugs as unruly as any bandit while they hide behind word like "Honor".

 

In this respect, I suspect Chevaliers are the DA team's 'take that!' to the ME teams heroic take on the Spectre/Cerberus membership card, which likewise served as a 'I'm above the law card' for the player. Of course the difference was that it was for the player, and the player never challenges things that work in their favor.

[Deebo305]

So, Gaspard and Michel only two chevaliers that have personality.

I still about only Half way through "The Mask Empire"

Spoiler

The part where Briala is captured and Gaspard and his Chevaliers ambush Celene and Michel's forces

So my opinion on them both is currently only at face value but so far I've nothing that suggest otherwise. Turn to Lohgain and how he lost his mother if you need a real brutal example.

[Deebo305]

In this respect, I suspect Chevaliers are the DA team's 'take that!' to the ME teams heroic take on the Spectre/Cerberus membership card, which likewise served as a 'I'm above the law card' for the player. Of course the difference was that it was for the player, and the player never challenges things that work in their favor.

Saren from ME1 shows what happens when your above the law, hell look at his history with guys like Anderson and The Illusive Man. Even before Sovereign was in his head, he was definitely someone who needed proper oversite

But then again by ME3 the galaxy definitely needed more guys like him and Shepard, frankly I wondered up until the end was Shepard the only useful active Spectre? And don't mention that hilariously pathetic Salarian Spectre who can't handle ONE random mook on his own lol

[Dean_the_Young]

Saren from ME1 shows what happens when your above the law, hell look at his history with guys like Anderson and The Illusive Man. Even before Sovereign was in his head, he was definitely someone who needed proper oversite

But then again by ME3 the galaxy definitely needed more guys like him and Shepard, frankly I wondered up until the end was Shepard the only useful active Spectre? And don't mention that hilariously pathetic Salarian Spectre who can't handle ONE random mook on his own lol

 

Saren didn't show what happened when you were above the law. In fact, most of his activities really weren't about that and the costs of his behavior were always framed in terms of unnecessary costs to his actions, not that his actions as a Spectre themselves were bad. Saren was a deconstruction of the 'greater good' (and surrender vis-a-vis extinction) far more than any theme of unaccountability, and the fatal flaw of Saren's argument in the narrative wasn't the premise but the fact that the Reapers wouldn't entertain a surrender in the first place.

 

Come ME3, Shepard's spectre status mattered didly squat. It was handwaved back in to meet the invented need for landing on Surkesh, and never mattered in the plot again. It might have also served as a justification for some of Shepard's actions on the Citadel... but then, Shepard didn't need Spectre status to get away with those either.

 

ME's big mistake was in treating Spectre status as a license to kill. It's real advantage is against white collar  criminals, not against people you already can get permission to kill. Making a Spectre a strike team leader for the military was a waste.

[SnakeCode]

I love the BSN.

 

 

Serial killing demon- OMG I just want to HUG him!!!!! He's so adorable!

 

Chevalier- Ughhhh no, he probably did something bad in the past. I'd kill him or not recruit him.

[Gervaise]

"All men are the work of the Maker's Hands

From the lowest slaves

To the highest kings

Those who bring harm

Without provocation to the least of His children

Are hated and accursed by the Maker."

 

So if you tried to argue that "All men were created equal" it does not go against the belief in the Maker.   Not equal in status but equal under the law of the Maker.    Actually I think the Chevaliers get round this by feeding the recruits the story that their training session is in response to some crime committed by an elf, so effectively they have their "provocation".     However, there is no justification for indiscriminately killing any elf they come across regardless of whether they were the guilty party.   Likewise, claiming you have the Divine Right to rape someone.    That is a perversion of the true faith.    The problem is most of the commoners are illiterate and the Chantry only spreads the bits that are convenient.      No wonder the nobles don't want any commoners, human or elf, to get an education.   The consequences for them would be terrifying.

[ladyofpayne]

I still about only Half way through "The Mask Empire"

Spoiler

The part where Briala is captured and Gaspard and his Chevaliers ambush Celene and Michel's forces

So my opinion on them both is currently only at face value but so far I've nothing that suggest otherwise. Turn to Lohgain and how he lost his mother if you need a real brutal example.

I remember. later loghain starden civil war and supported How so many people lost their mothers too. So he is no different than those bastards.